Support NeoGAF

[PapaJustify]

With several Windows Insider releases, how did the developer not figure this out months ago?

It's easy to blame Microsoft and bash Windows all the time, but these changes have been known for a longer time and could have probably worked out with Microsoft during the development phase.

 

[Lazaro]

I use a Wii U pro pad with this wifi dongle I bought (the battery life is unparalleled). The PC thinks it's a 360 pad. Is this update going to break that too?

Wii U gamepads are unaffected from what I've tested. I've been using WiinUSoft if that matters.

 

[cripterion]

What does that have to do with what Sweeney said? Or is the DS4 Steam's default controller?

 

[samn]

With several Windows Insider releases, how did the developer not figure this out months ago?

It's easy to blame Microsoft and bash Windows all the time, but these changes have been known for a longer time and could have probably worked out with Microsoft during the development phase.

The 'developer' is just a bunch of people coming up with hacks to get the controller to work during their free time. I imagine they don't have the resources or the patience to support it all year round.

If Sony wanted they could release their own working driver coded in a way that is unlikely to be broken by Windows updates, but they don't. It seems unreasonable to expect MS to not implement any changes that happen to interfere with a controller that isn't even supported by its own manufacturer.

 

[c0de]

Typical ms. Breaking support of a controller millions use by an operating system update just to annoy people, making them buy the worse controller and to lock them into their eco system. Typical...

 

[Lazaro]

With several Windows Insider releases, how did the developer not figure this out months ago?

It's easy to blame Microsoft and bash Windows all the time, but these changes have been known for a longer time and could have probably worked out with Microsoft during the development phase.

There were a couple of threads on the inputmapper forums about this issue but I don't think the dev properly acknowledged them. Which is weird because I thought devs test their shit on various builds in order to maximise compatibly, similar to how Apple release beta builds of OSX and iOS for developers to test their applications before release.

https://inputmapper.com/forum/inputmapper-1-5-support/85-exclusive-mode-issues-for-the-two-weeks

https://inputmapper.com/forum/inputmapper-1-5-support/25-recent-win-10-14366-rs1-release-160610-1700

 

[artsi]

Typical ms. Breaking support of a controller millions use by an operating system update just to annoy people, making them buy the worse controller and to lock them into their eco system. Typical...

I'm a DS4 user but it's silly to assume that Microsoft had any intent breaking DS4 functionality (especially because it still works... exclusive mode just is bugged). It's just collateral damage from many changes they made.

 

[whiteninja]

If you have the pro version just disable updates via gpedit.msc. You can always reactivate later if the dev updates their program too.

The forced update thing by default on win 10 is annoying though.

 

[TBiddy]

Typical ms. Breaking support of a controller millions use by an operating system update just to annoy people, making them buy the worse controller and to lock them into their eco system. Typical...

That sarcasm. I love it.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

It's called an OS update. Of course stuff is going to break.

This. It's one of the big reasons why developers get access to builds beforehand, so they can ensure their program or app will work by the time the OS launches to customers.

iOS 10 and macOS Sierra developer betas have been available for a while ahead of the official launches later this year, and in the old days, developers would have access to new versions of Windows (RTM versions) from July, months ahead of any official launch.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

MS superfans do come off as incredible dickbags with no ability to think critically or willingness to engage in conversation. It is almost as if they don't want anyone to talk about these things.

Instead of being pretentious, maybe you should go back to the first page and see how we ended up in the state the thread is in.

Posters who are simply pointing out to the Microsoft haters that this issue isn't on Microsoft are suddenly "MS super fans"?

Get the fuck out with that shit.

 

[LordRaptor]

This. It's one of the big reasons why developers get access to builds beforehand, so they can ensure their program or app will work by the time the OS launches to customers.

iOS 10 and macOS Sierra developer betas have been available for a while ahead of the official launches later this year, and in the old days, developers would have access to new versions of Windows (RTM versions) from July, months ahead of any official launch.

There is a huge difference in expectation of the amount of things you expect to be broken between going from a 1.x to a 2.0 release, or even from going from a 1.0x to a 1.1 than going from a 1.1606 to a 1.1607, despite the hard spinning whataboutism going on in this thread.

It's the entire point of versioning software.
If this is a major point revisions worth of behind the scenes changes, it should be versioned as such.

 

[Grazzt]

Goddamn this thread is a disaster. I thought neogaf is better than YouTube comments.

 

[Night Terror]

I've read the entire thread, but I've got a doubt here for my very own end. I do not use a DS4, however I do use a Dualshock 3. No one's complained here that theirs doesn't work, but since the DS4 support is broken right now something tells me that DS3 should be the same case.

Anyone can confirm me or deny please? I'd like to know before updating

 

[Jonneh3003]

No no no no please don't tell me people are being serious, no one actually believes Tim Sweeney right? It's complete madness. Updates do sometimes break things, I doubt Microsoft went and specifically patched out Dualshock 4s.

 

[artsi]

No no no no please don't tell me people are being serious, no one actually believes Tim Sweeney right? It's complete madness. Updates do sometimes break things, I doubt Microsoft went and specifically patched out Dualshock 4s.

It's a ridiculous theory.

"Hey let's break DS4 functionality so our other business division can sell a dozen more gamepads"
"Ok how will we do that?"
"Let's do a system level modification to the OS that will result in one feature of the 3rd party wrapper software not working, it will really annoy people but they can still use the controller with 99% of the games"
"Ok sounds good!"

If they wanted to break it, they would do something that will actually block using the controller but that's just stupid.

 

[orava]

Aren't the "drivers" hacky third party crap anyway?

 

[RexNovis]

Now to go back to the top level question "Why does it default to DInput/RawInput" comes down to how an operating system handles something when it doesn't have a Driver for it. In this case, it goes deeper into OS theory, which basically drills down to "You do nothing" or "You try to map it to the closest thing possible in respects to a ton of collected data for what it may be"

Spoiler

which in the case of the second one can lead to some pretty funny results as is the case of a super old Flash Drive I have that thinks its a webcam

. Reguardless, in the case of a DS4, the OS can tell from crowdsourced data that "This is a Controller" and that "I can maybe map this to my default controller driver which just so happens to be DInput"

Ultimately, I can't tell you why Microsoft does it one way or another, while I'm a software developer I don't go anywhere near the hardware level that I am talking up... and once again, really overly simplified

Right the bolder was the core question I was asking: why does MS choose to have their IS default to DInput instead of XInput in the absence of a driver? It looks like the majority of compatibility issues boil down to DInput being the default instead of Xinput which is a choice. So that begs the question if it's responsible for compatibility issues why not change it? Why not just default to XInput if that's the more widely used API? If it's like you say and nobody uses DInput why would they make that the default API instead of the more widely adopted one? I mean it just seems to make more sense to default to the more widely adopted/utilized API and have the exception (DInput) only be used with peripherals that demand it as opposed to every peripheral without official drivers.

I appreciate that you can't say why that decision was made but I'm hoping you can postulate as to why it would be made. Everything that's been explained thus far has pointed to this being a bizzare choice that I'm not really seeing any sort of rhyme or reason to.

Also, apologies for cutting your explanation down to just this part but rest assured I read it all and while I was familiar with the purpose of drivers it was definitely very informative it's just this particular part was the real meat of my question.

 

[leeh]

No do not speak the word Cygwin again... ah, the horrors .
If I was not invested in iOS development, I agree that it would drive me towards it as I can get really powerful HW for the bucks I spend and right now a Mac is worthless for VR, especially the Mac Pro option.

Still, there is something about macOS in general, about Finder compared to File Explorer and the extensions you can find for it and Quicklook (not to mention some operations with Preview that you can do really fast in a non disruptive way as well as first class PDF support) plus mixing AppleScript and shell scripts that makes using macOS really pleasing to me and their HW quality is still top notch.

Still, for now, using Parallels or Bootcamp to start Windows is a very good option if I only need to do work on it.

I still use Cygwin day-to-day Well, technically I use babun which is a cygwin wrapper with a lot of nice things pre-installed: package manager, zsh etc. If anyone is using Cygwin, I'd definitely recommend moving over to use babun.

I understand why you'd really like Mac as a dev machine, I used to use have one at my last place of work as they provided them. Used to love mine, they're great for audio production to as they support VST plugins so much better than Windows. Although, the main reason I loved mine was for the linux terminal. Although, you have to get OSX built packages and it doesn't come pre-installed with a package manager.

I definitely find that the Ubuntu implementation in Windows is better than OSX's terminal tbh. Although, that's mainly just because it's Ubuntu.

 

[martino]

It's called an OS update. Not surprising community ducktape solution driver can break.

corrected

 

[c0de]

I definitely find that the Ubuntu implementation in Windows is better than OSX's terminal tbh. Although, that's mainly just because it's Ubuntu.

The terminal in osx is junk. The fact that macports exists tells you as much. Not having the gnu versions of all the standard tools is a big pain in the ass.

 

[PapaJustify]

I definitely find that the Ubuntu implementation in Windows is better than OSX's terminal tbh. Although, that's mainly just because it's Ubuntu.

Sorry in advance for this pretentious and patronizing comment, but people who use the Terminal on macOS are simply amateurs.

 

[TBiddy]

There is a huge difference in expectation of the amount of things you expect to be broken between going from a 1.x to a 2.0 release, or even from going from a 1.0x to a 1.1 than going from a 1.1606 to a 1.1607, despite the hard spinning whataboutism going on in this thread.

It's the entire point of versioning software.
If this is a major point revisions worth of behind the scenes changes, it should be versioned as such.

Pssst. Try looking up what the version numbers mean in Windows 10. I'll give you a hint - it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the number of changes, but it might have something to do with dates.

 

[LordRaptor]

Pssst. Try looking up what the version numbers mean in Windows 10. I'll give you a hint - it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the number of changes, but it might have something to do with dates.

Saying "Build 14393.10" instead of "Version 1607" doesn't change the actual damn point I am making about what people expect from software versioning.

 

[TBiddy]

Saying "Build 14393.10" instead of "Version 1607" doesn't change the actual damn point I am making about what people expect from software versioning.

What you expect, in order to fit it into your narrative.

 

[Rellik]

Aren't the "drivers" hacky third party crap anyway?

It's the third party who should have fixed this months ago when the developer previews were available. That's the whole point of them.

 

[Toadthemushroom]

There is a huge difference in expectation of the amount of things you expect to be broken between going from a 1.x to a 2.0 release, or even from going from a 1.0x to a 1.1 than going from a 1.1606 to a 1.1607, despite the hard spinning whataboutism going on in this thread.

It's the entire point of versioning software.
If this is a major point revisions worth of behind the scenes changes, it should be versioned as such.

You're right, though it has been fairly clear to the developer community that the anniversary update is the first major update to Windows 10, and as such should be treated as a version update than a point update. It's the equivalent of going from macOS 10.11 to 10.12, or iOS 9 to iOS 10.

The November update to Windows 10 was a point update. I'm not well versed on the details behind what MS has actually said to developers though, I didn't follow Build. But the above is the impression I get.

 

[Three]

Hello again 2015
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1081643

They broke this twice now.
Intentional or not constantly breaking things is going to piss off people to the point where they think they will be better off buying official "Xbox" stuff.

 

[Zomba13]

This was the exact thing that stopped me from updating to 10 for so long and the moment it was fixed and working (where I could just plug in the controller with DS4Windows running and it'd all work fine) I upgraded.

 

[brawly]

Scared to turn on the internet on my PC, I do all my emulation with a DS4.

It's been a while but I think exclusive mode is if you want the DS4 to act as a 360 controller. Inputs should still work for emulation.

 

[Three]

With several Windows Insider releases, how did the developer not figure this out months ago?

It's easy to blame Microsoft and bash Windows all the time, but these changes have been known for a longer time and could have probably worked out with Microsoft during the development phase.

I have not found a workaround as of yet and it is doubtful that one exists. So until a solution is found, it is important that users needing exclusive mode disable Windows updates temporarily.

win32 changes are happening and they are breaking things.

 

[ChryZ]

"Something went wrong. Would you like to replace the unusable device with a Xbox One Elite Controller™, click here to order now."

 

[LordRaptor]

What you expect, in order to fit it into your narrative.

The 'narrative' that certain posters love to nitpick and quibble the example representative of the problem because they can't strawman the actual problem, or the 'narrative' that quality control taking a nosedive in conjunction with mandatory unattended forced installs and shortened public test phases results in a diminished experience for end users?

 

[Lockjaw333]

Couldn't Sony just release some freaking drivers so that the DS4 works natively? I fail to see how this is MS's fault. Things sometimes break compatability on updates.

 

[Lazaro]

You can use the latest SCP drivers, it works but I've only tested a wired DS4.

https://github.com/nefarius/ScpToolkit

 

[samn]

The 'narrative' that certain posters love to nitpick and quibble the example representative of the problem because they can't strawman the actual problem, or the 'narrative' that quality control taking a nosedive in conjunction with mandatory unattended forced installs and shortened public test phases results in a diminished experience for end users?

What problem? Are Microsoft deliberately forcing incompatibility with whole swathes of non-Microsoft produced peripherals now? Odd, my Logitech mouse seems to work just fine. Might have something to do with Logitech actually releasing drivers for it.

 

[Three]

Couldn't Sony just release some freaking drivers so that the DS4 works natively? I fail to see how this is MS's fault. Things sometimes break compatability on updates.

Sony would run into the same problem as Wobbles (the dev behind InputMapper).

What problem? Are Microsoft deliberately forcing incompatibility with whole swathes of non-Microsoft produced peripherals now? Odd, my Logitech mouse seems to work just fine. Might have something to do with Logitech actually releasing drivers for it.

Funny because this has nothing to do with drivers. Your logitech mouse is a HID device much like this.

 

[Fujinn]

ScpToolkit works fine. It doesn't have the same amount of customization (well it doesn't have any, really) but at least the ds4 works as intended.

 

[LordRaptor]

What problem? Are Microsoft deliberately forcing incompatibility with whole swathes of non-Microsoft produced peripherals now? Odd, my Logitech mouse seems to work just fine. Might have something to do with Logitech actually releasing drivers for it.

Minor OS revision updates shouldn't be breaking core API calls.
Major OS revision updates shouldn't be reintroducing regression bugs or being pushed out as unattended installs after minimal beta testing.

This is a crazy rocky rollout for an OS patch release.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

It's lovely to see people who conviniently forget that previous W10 updates broke even the Xbox One Controller drivers :lol

 

[Kaleinc]

The reason people even use DS4 on pc is xbox controller has a shitty d-pad.
MS, guilty or not guilty?

 

[Eolz]

This thread's reactions are not ridiculous at all. Nope.

 

[TBiddy]

The 'narrative' that certain posters love to nitpick and quibble the example representative of the problem because they can't strawman the actual problem, or the 'narrative' that quality control taking a nosedive in conjunction with mandatory unattended forced installs and shortened public test phases results in a diminished experience for end users?

This narrative: There is a huge difference in expectation of the amount of things you expect to be broken between going from a 1.x to a 2.0 release, or even from going from a 1.0x to a 1.1 than going from a 1.1606 to a 1.1607

You clearly don't know what the numbers mean. Take a look at this. How many changes do you think there was from Windows 8.1 > Windows 10, since Microsoft decided to skip a whopping FOUR versions ahead (from 6 > 10), if we're following your logic?

Versions are decided by dates (and not by features, as you thought). It's as simple as that. But tell me this;
Let's say that the last build-number was 10.0.10586.494 and the anniversary update is 10.0.14393.10.

Which build number do you think would've been better? How much would they have to raise it in order for this to be acceptable? 10.0.2? 10.1.0? 10.0.15000?

edit: Also, the "Anniversary update" isn't a minor revision. Latest 5 updates have the build numbers 10586.240, 10586.318, 10586.338, 10586.420 and 10586.494. As written above the Anniversary Update is 14393.10.

 

[Kysen]

It's lovely to see people who conviniently forget that previous W10 updates broke even the Xbox One Controller drivers :lol

It's hilarious. In any case if Sony just ponied up and made official drivers this wouldn't be a continuing issue. I'm done using 3rd party software to get PS controllers to work.

 

[Lagamorph]

Unsupported 3rd party hardware continues to be unsupported by manufacturer.

 

[LukasTaves]

So evil they're killing their own drivers. Where does it stop?

It's all a ploy to kill Windows gaming, their intentions are clearly to make steam gamers to jump to Xbox.

 

[xJavonta]

This thread is so terrible. People saying MS needs to be taken to court over this? What? Lmao get real

 

[Earthpainting]

Sucks for people who rely on it, but these are the types of issues I expect for unofficial third party drivers. Can't help but look at the direction of Sony, who seems to ignore this segment of their market. That's their prerogative of course, but I like to think there are enough D-pad-centric games and people who prefer the Dual Shock layout, to justify some TLC on PC.

 

[LordRaptor]

Versions are decided by dates (and not by features, as you thought). It's as simple as that.

Software versioning SHOULD BE architectural. It's the POINT.

Anything using version numbers that are not related to the softwares development is for PR purposes, and uses internal build numbers to do what everyone else does.

Major, systemic, architectural rewrites or other major revisions to software get a full number increase.

Significant changes get a point number increase.

Patches get an addendum number increase.

Software 1.0 -> 2.0 = expect major breakages, if compatibility exists at all
Software 1.1 -> 1.2 = new features, or major changes, but functionality should not be broken
Software 1.10 -> 1.11 = bugfixes / QoL tweaks
Software 1.11a -> 1.11b = extremely minor shit, such as the difference between going from closed alpha to open beta

this:

10586.240, 10586.318, 10586.338, 10586.420 and 10586.494. As written above the Anniversary Update is 14393.10

Doesn't mean shit to anyone outside of MS.

It certainly doesn't imply - nor does "Anniversary update" - the likelihood of major impact on previously working systems, rewrites of core modules, resetting all user preferences, etc

The fact a bunch of you guys are now adopting the "Ya know, things break!" mantra just further serves the point that just as MS have moved to fewer but much more impactful patches, their quality control has taken a nosedive, when aggressively forcing updates that are bigger and more impactful requires much more QA, and much longer beta test periods.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I still use Cygwin day-to-day Well, technically I use babun which is a cygwin wrapper with a lot of nice things pre-installed: package manager, zsh etc. If anyone is using Cygwin, I'd definitely recommend moving over to use babun.

I understand why you'd really like Mac as a dev machine, I used to use have one at my last place of work as they provided them. Used to love mine, they're great for audio production to as they support VST plugins so much better than Windows. Although, the main reason I loved mine was for the linux terminal. Although, you have to get OSX built packages and it doesn't come pre-installed with a package manager.

I definitely find that the Ubuntu implementation in Windows is better than OSX's terminal tbh. Although, that's mainly just because it's Ubuntu.

That does sound very nice, one of the killer features of the new update indeed . Plus the work they did to make it happen is exciting.

The terminal in osx is junk. The fact that macports exists tells you as much. Not having the gnu versions of all the standard tools is a big pain in the ass.

iTerm 2 + oh_my_zsh and agnoster theme and got integration + macOS is more closely related on BSD not GNU Linux (and changes in scripts are minor: did that for scripts ran by Jenkins adapting at runtime to either CentOS or macOS) does not make me feel one bit behind what I was able to do on Ubuntu or Fedora before.
Also, I can integrate with AppleScript to further extend my command line scripts.