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Xbox One TV Integration is apparently 'broken' For UK & Europe: Sky 50Hz Stutter

W

Walshicus

Member
Rourkey said:
Yes it worked for me and the tickers on Sky news are fine, but turning on auto discovery means I can't force 5.1 pcm as the xbox talks to the tv which tells it it only has 2 speakers so the xbox only outputs 2.0pcm to my receiver!

I'm just going to try a game see what difference it makes
Click to expand...

I guess we just need MS to add a 60/50Hz toggle in manual mode.
 
J

Jinko

Member
iMax said:
I don't think Xbox One will be flaunting its HDMI-in in 5 years time. Just like the Xbox 360, the platform will shift, and they'll focus on App Channels a lot more down the line.

As for the 50Hz/60Hz issue, doesn't the Xbox One run three display panes simultaneously? Can these run at different rates? I'm guessing not, because of the HDMI connection but I can see a patch coming in allowing the console to re-shake with the display when the TV launch app is opened.

Also, the Xbox 360 has a 50Hz mode in Europe. Doesn't the Xbox One too?
Click to expand...

That will be horrible, every time you re-shake your TV will lose the picture, I would sooner just pick up the remote and change AV inputs.
 
N

Nero3000

Member
Temporary fix to lock everything (TV, Games, UI) to 50hz:

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/50hz-fix-201311263472.htm
HDTV Test said:
Here are the precise instructions. First, set your Xbox One to auto-detect HDMI (under Display settings). Then, toggle the resolution from 1080p to 720p (or vice versa), which should trigger a prompt window asking if the screen is displaying correctly, and if you want to keep the new resolution. Select “No” before the 15 seconds is up. This seems to trick the Xbox One into thinking that the TV is not compatible with 60Hz signal, and voila! 50Hz output. Depending on your television set, you may need several attempts to succeed – the good chaps over at CVG have verified that this unofficial fix works too.
Click to expand...
 
M

Mindwipe

Member
iMax said:
Also, I've never noticed juddering issues watching British content on iPlayer or Sky through my Xbox 360 set to 1080p60.
Click to expand...

You definitely get a little judder on those services. Watch a credits sequence.

But they're 25hz in the first place, so your brain gets used to it a bit more.
 
S

Starwolf_UK

Member
Going on with the question of "I watch BBC iPlayer on a 60Hz monitor, is this the same problem?" and with what Mindwipe just said. Could it be it was missed in test due to people being used to watching things at the wrong refresh rate, kind of like how younger people find high bitrate songs sound wrong because they are used to low bitrate samples etc...

But yeah the service is not great for the UK as the digital receiver is built into the TV (so getting an external one with HDMI means going for cable or satellite).

Powdered Toastman said:
Upsample to 300hz with frame interpolation, then downsample to 60hz by taking every 5th frame... :p
Click to expand...
This reminds me of some anime raws that were 120 fps because the show was a mix of 24 and 30 fps...
 
F

feint_ruled

Member
Starwolf_UK said:
Going on with the question of "I watch BBC iPlayer on a 60Hz monitor, is this the same problem?" and with what Mindwipe just said. Could it be it was missed in test due to people being used to watching things at the wrong refresh rate, kind of like how younger people find high bitrate songs sound wrong because they are used to low bitrate samples etc...
Click to expand...

I really don't think this was missed in any sense. MS are fully aware of it, how can they not be? The "fix" is already in place - 50Hz is redone to 60.
 
N

Nero3000

Member
feint_ruled said:
Well, hence my quotes. It's as good a fix as is possible without re-handshaking, and the only fix possible in snap mode (unless you want to force 50Hz and have the stutter in the game instead)

EDIT: just seen your edit ;-)
Click to expand...

Yes, do that.

While the number of games are small - get every developer to patch in a 50fps mode for when the xbox is in that mode, and make it mandatory for all games going forward.

Of course make this optional for those that want 60fps all the time.
 
A

agm2502

Member
Nero3000 said:
Yes, do that.

While the number of games are small - get every developer to patch in a 50fps mode for when the xbox is in that mode, and make it mandatory for all games going forward.

Of course make this optional for those that want 60fps all the time.
Click to expand...

How would you patch a 50fps mode in a 30fps game?
 
N

Nero3000

Member
agm2502 said:
How would you patch a 50fps mode in a 30fps game?
Click to expand...

What ever they did in the PS2 era. I didn't complain about that.

Like I said, make it optional so those that care about squeezing the most FPS possible vs. those that judder free TV is more important.

It's a compromise either way.
 
F

feint_ruled

Member
Nero3000 said:
Yes, do that.

While the number of games are small - get every developer to patch in a 50fps mode for when the xbox is in that mode, and make it mandatory for all games going forward.

Of course make this optional for those that want 60fps all the time.
Click to expand...

Supporting multiple frame rates is not something that console devs have historically been good at. If that is any guide, most US and Japanese devs flat out won't bother, or do something awful like frameskip.
Even if done properly you would be degrading your gaming experience. It's not like in the PAL days where at least you got a greater resolution in return. With this it would be lesser maximum framerate, end of story. On the plus side, it would be easier to hit it ;-)
 
W

Walshicus

Member
feint_ruled said:
Supporting multiple frame rates is not something that console devs have historically been good at
Click to expand...

Perhaps I'm being naive to the realities of game development, but isn't this little more than a setting change? If you can hit 60fps you can hit 50fps. If you can hit 30fps you can hit 25fps?
 
R

Raist

Banned
They should patch the PAL consoles so that they output 50Hz at all times. It'd be hilarious to go back to the good old days.

these days weren't really good
 
S

Septimius

Junior Member
MThanded said:
The question is how did they not see this in testing? Seems like it would be pretty easy to find in QA.
Click to expand...

It's fairly easy to apologize this in QA. Might've been that QA for this part was done in 60Hz territory.

However, that an engineer somewhere didn't raise this issue, or that it subsequently wasn't heard, is the real atrocity here.
 
F

feint_ruled

Member
Sir Fragula said:
Perhaps I'm being naive to the realities of game development, but isn't this little more than a setting change? If you can hit 60fps you can hit 50fps. If you can hit 30fps you can hit 25fps?
Click to expand...

It's too easy a trap for them to fall into of locking timing of game logic to framerate. Perhaps with modern development processes this would not so much of an issue, but I wouldn't be optimistic!
 
N

Nero3000

Member
feint_ruled said:
Supporting multiple frame rates is not something that devs have historically been good at. And you would be degrading your gaming experience. It's not like in the PAL days where at least you got a greater resolution in return. With this it would be lesser maximum framerate, end of story. On the plus side, it would be easier to hit it ;-)
Click to expand...

A lesser frame rate, but a smoother overall experience. For someone who wants to indulge in all aspects of the Xbox One experience, of which TV is a large proportion - 25FPS in some games is a compromise, one I would be willing to put up with.

Now there are other issues with Xbox One which limits its appeal to me - lack of UK one guide, limited Sky Box integration, limited UK online services integration, overly aggressive upscaler, picture degradation, power requirements, surround sound handling, gold paywall. But hopefully overtime these will all be dealt with along with the judder issue.
 
S

Septimius

Junior Member
feint_ruled said:
Supporting multiple frame rates is not something that console devs have historically been good at. If that is any guide, most US and Japanese devs flat out won't bother, or do something awful like frameskip.
Even if done properly you would be degrading your gaming experience. It's not like in the PAL days where at least you got a greater resolution in return. With this it would be lesser maximum framerate, end of story. On the plus side, it would be easier to hit it ;-)
Click to expand...

This isn't about games. Games can be 60 fps. Yes, a lot of games have been timed with frames, which makes for such things as the Final Fantasy games on PS1 running 12% slower in Europe than America.

However, all console hardware has been capable of outputting at 50Hz or 60Hz. All. This is an output setting, it is relatively trivial. Enable a "dashboard refresh rate" setting. Done. All games can still be 60Hz.
 
S

Slair

Member
Raist said:
They should patch the PAL consoles so that they output 50Hz at all times. It'd be hilarious to go back to the good old days.

these days weren't really good
Click to expand...

And add in black bars, man i loved them.

I opted to play tekken 3 ntsc version on a pal tv in black and white so i didn't need to play that slowed down piece of shite that we got here.
 
S

Septimius

Junior Member
feint_ruled said:
Yeah, and 60Hz games displaying on a 50Hz display will stutter. Same as 50Hz TV on a 60Hz output. Pick your poison.
Click to expand...

This isn't about that. The console is HDMI only. All screens with HDMI support 50Hz and 60Hz. This is about how many fps the Xbone outputs. The dashboard is 60fps, the TV signal is 50. Then you introduce frame judder. Set dashboard to be 50Hz, let games still be 60Hz, all displays can still support it. That's why I said they should include a setting called "Dashboard refresh-rate", so that if you use it with 50Hz TV, you can set it to 50Hz, and snap will work.
 
F

feint_ruled

Member
Septimius said:
This isn't about that. The console is HDMI only. All screens with HDMI support 50Hz and 60Hz. This is about how many fps the Xbone outputs. The dashboard is 60fps, the TV signal is 50. Then you introduce frame judder. Set dashboard to be 50Hz, let games still be 60Hz, all displays can still support it.
Click to expand...

And when one of you major selling points is being able to display both at once?
 
S

Septimius

Junior Member
feint_ruled said:
And when one of you major selling points is being able to display both at once?
Click to expand...

What?

EDIT: Oh, right. You mean if games are 60fps but then dash is 50? I get it.
When you start up a game, you often do a handshake again, so when you start a game, you change the refresh rate of the dashboard to 60Hz, too. Done.
 
H

hadareud

The Translator
Septimius said:
This isn't about that. The console is HDMI only. All screens with HDMI support 50Hz and 60Hz. This is about how many fps the Xbone outputs. The dashboard is 60fps, the TV signal is 50. Then you introduce frame judder. Set dashboard to be 50Hz, let games still be 60Hz, all displays can still support it.
Click to expand...

Let's see what they come up with.

To be fair to them, they did say that TV wasn't supported in Europe at launch.

I don't think this is an issue that caught them by surprise as people somehow seem to think. They must have known.
 
H

hadareud

The Translator
In snap mode the stutter is hardly a real issue.

It's not like snap is there to deliver an immersive and cinematic experience.
 
C

cchum

Member
Slair said:
The tv was from the 80's, had that wood paneling and it was RF only.
Click to expand...

Oh RF adapters, how I don't miss you.

That guardian article is pretty serious for MS. The word "plague" is never good to have in an article about your product.
 
A

+Aliken+

Member
Will all this make a difference to the future sales?

I still find it unbelievable that it sold this "well" after:
- Presenting the console as DRM
- When everyone complained they said: "well it is hard coded we cannot go back now"
- Then the day after saying "we have gone back"

How can you trust them with not going back to DRM all of a sudden...
 
D

Dunlop

Member
+Aliken+ said:
Will all this make a difference to the future sales?

I still find it unbelievable that it sold this "well" after:
- Presenting the console as DRM
- When everyone complained they said: "well it is hard coded we cannot go back now"
- Then the day after saying "we have gone back"

How can you trust them with not going back to DRM all of a sudden...
Click to expand...
Crap did I go back in time, is it June on this site again?


Pretty big goof by MS
 
Z

zomgbbqftw

Banned
SomethingInTheSea said:
The story has reached the mainstream press;

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/26/xbox-one-juddering-plagues-uk-tv-watchers
Click to expand...

Best comment from the article:

e999331b-8172-458c-925c-9e612cf436c0-460x276.jpeg


"I think a far more pressing and important question that Microsoft must answer immediately is.
Why do the guys in that photo have their headphones on over their hoodies?"

Indeed!
 
D

dmr87

Member
Possible workaround, upated the OP.

There's a potential workaround for the Xbox One TV integration judder issue.

HDTVTest, which spotted the problem with UK Xbox One's earlier this week, disovered a way to force the Xbox One to output a 50Hz signal - matching the TV signal pumped into the console through the HDMI-in port.

As the site explains, to do this you need to set your Xbox One to auto-detect HDMI from within the display settings, then toggle the resolution from 1080p to 720p or vice versa. This triggers a prompt asking if you'd like to keep the new resolution. Select no.

Apparently this tricks the Xbox One into thinking your TV isn't compatible with a 60Hz signal and forces a 50Hz output.

Unfortunately, this workaround isn't ideal. It makes everything 50Hz, including video games. So there may be stutter when playing games. You can of course manually switch back to 60Hz to play games.

Microsoft is yet to comment on the issue.
Click to expand...

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-11-25-xbox-one-tv-integration-suffers-noticeable-judder-in-uk
 
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