EventHorizon
Member
While I wholeheartedly agree a $399 Scorpio price tag is pure fairy dust, the Playstation Pro has not "sold like balls". Yoshida said at the Feb 2 earnings briefing...
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Xbox Scorpio Pricing Discussion
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While I wholeheartedly agree a $399 Scorpio price tag is pure fairy dust, the Playstation Pro has not "sold like balls". Yoshida said at the Feb 2 earnings briefing...
Well just checking the XBO store right now Watch Dogs 1 now cost the same price as the PS4 version.
I wonder did some older XBO games that were initially cheaper jump in price after the Scorpio reveal. Or in my haste I was looking at bundle versions. Whatever the case, I can scratch the non discounted game prices as reason right now.
There's always the disc versions tho....which will probably still be the same price.
Papacheeks
Banned
We didn't know it was shipping with Zelda until January reveal.
Without Zelda switch would not be selling like it is. Attach rate numbers kind of prove that.
General Lee
Member
I think the general consensus is it'll settle between $399 and $499, with the lower end being a good deal, and the higher end still acceptable if not fantastic. As the fastest console it's easier to ask a bit of premium so there's a good chance MS won't try to directly compete against PS4 Pro on price. Of course retail pricing might eventually change depending on how well it performs, like Xbox One originally being more expensive than PS4, but in reality it soon dropped below PS4 prices at least here in EU. Not that I expect that to happen with Scorpio.
I think in the future new consoles are forced to become more expensive due to Moore's Law slowing down. The next obvious jump is Zen + HBM on an interposer, but at this point it seems extremely expensive for a console. In all likelihood the next consoles come relatively soon after 7 nm is ready, but current models will no doubt get new Slim versions as soon as it is available. MS might want to stick to $499 with Scorpio just to not give any ideas to people that high end consoles will be <$399 going forward. In all likelihood we'll see a return to $599 at some point, or even higher. People probably won't mind as much since the jump from Scorpio probably isn't as drastic as going from PS360 to current gen, and the transition period will likely be longer where most multiplats will continue to release on older hw. It'll feel more like just a third tier of performance, until there's enough exclusives on the newest platform.
I think in the future new consoles are forced to become more expensive due to Moore's Law slowing down. The next obvious jump is Zen + HBM on an interposer, but at this point it seems extremely expensive for a console. In all likelihood the next consoles come relatively soon after 7 nm is ready, but current models will no doubt get new Slim versions as soon as it is available. MS might want to stick to $499 with Scorpio just to not give any ideas to people that high end consoles will be <$399 going forward. In all likelihood we'll see a return to $599 at some point, or even higher. People probably won't mind as much since the jump from Scorpio probably isn't as drastic as going from PS360 to current gen, and the transition period will likely be longer where most multiplats will continue to release on older hw. It'll feel more like just a third tier of performance, until there's enough exclusives on the newest platform.
phantasmic_glaive
Member
No diss.. But, Your original comment are the exact reason they may price it at $499. I would call your bluff, price it at $499, and you still buy it anyway. You just told me (MS) that you buy into everything I make. Yea, I'll sweeten the pot with a couple of free game vouchers.... but you gone gimme that money like you been doing for the last "9 or 10 years"!
anything higher than 449 is a Microsoft is not going to sell price point. I doubt it will sell that well at 449. They need to hit 399 for it to sell well.
Fredrik
Member
Well then that's what they'll need to do. Or it will fail. No trolling here, they simply can't expect it to sell well as a smaller upgrade from PS4 Pro at possibly $200 difference if(when) Sony drops the price on Pro. The power difference is about the same as between XB1 and PS4. Would you have bought the PS4 if it was $499 and XB1 $299?
MS need to take the potential loss on the hardware and earn it back from better market penetration from having the best multiplats combined with XBL and the Netflix-like game subscription services.
After all the positive reception I cannot see a world where Microsoft chooses to not try and hit $399. They can bullhorn premium all the want, but this is their opportunity to get boxes into homes, ride the HDR/4K adoption uptick, and more importantly- get some of those lapsed Xbox Live subscriptions that have went over to the PS4 platform.
They'll take a tiny loss in the short run, but the massive amount of cash flow influx over a period of two years should easily offset the loss.
They'll take a tiny loss in the short run, but the massive amount of cash flow influx over a period of two years should easily offset the loss.
I think that Microsoft are reading through this thread and saying to themselves...
"$699! Haha! Just wait until you see the price!"
"$399. Oh shit, this gonna bomb."
"$599! Another customer!"
"$499. Hey Phil, what's our BOM again?"
"$699! Haha! Just wait until you see the price!"
...
"$699! Haha! Just wait until you see the price!"
"$399. Oh shit, this gonna bomb."
"$599! Another customer!"
"$499. Hey Phil, what's our BOM again?"
"$699! Haha! Just wait until you see the price!"
...
Before the DigitalFoundry reveal:
Realistic GAF: "It will probably be Jaguar again to hit the $400 price point and the rest will be what MS promised at E3 2016. The power gap between it and the PS4 Pro about what you'd expect for a console due out a year later."
Not living in the real world GAF: "Premium device! Zen! 8TF! $600!"
After the DigitalFoundry reveal:
Realistic GAF: "See?"
Not living in the real world GAF: "Uhh it's still premium! $500-600!"
Realistic GAF: "It will probably be Jaguar again to hit the $400 price point and the rest will be what MS promised at E3 2016. The power gap between it and the PS4 Pro about what you'd expect for a console due out a year later."
Not living in the real world GAF: "Premium device! Zen! 8TF! $600!"
After the DigitalFoundry reveal:
Realistic GAF: "See?"
Not living in the real world GAF: "Uhh it's still premium! $500-600!"
To be fair, there was nothing unrealistic about the Puma predictions. It's quite literally just Jaguar with some energy efficiency improvements, which is why some were expecting it (myself included).
Memorabilia
Member
This.
If MS wants to make *any* market-share headway whatsoever they have to have a $399 SKU. Period. History proves anything above that is niche at best.
If MS can't hit mainstream volume production for a few months then I could maybe see them pricing the entry SKU higher, but only if they can't bring the supply to hit a higher demand brought on by the lower price. Absent production limitations of some sort, it'd be profoundly stupid to try to launch Scorpio without a $399 SKU and expect it to be anything other than niche, if not an outright failure. And by "failure" I mean having slim to no effect on moving the market share needle.
History shows time and time again that launching above $400 is a bad idea and just doesn't move enough units. There's a lot of hubris and willful ignorance of market forces in the upper echelons of Microsoft, but assuming Phil & Co. have some measure of autonomy in pricing decisions I have to believe they can make a simple calculation that "$400 = good", "above $400 = bad". This isn't rocket science. The "$399 sweet spot" is real.
Assuming production capacity isn't limited I'd say a $399 1TB SKU is absolutely necessary to have any chance of clawing back consumer mindshare and market share to any appreciable degree. This doesn't preclude a higher priced SKU. In fact I expect a $499 2TB SKU "Day One" edition to launch simultaneously. But if $500 is the only option, the Scorpio is largely pointless in terms of gaining ground on Sony as the higher price will limit sales to niche status at best and make the whole thing feel like a pet project rather than a serious shot across Sony's bow.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
When they first got the white board out to start planning Scorpio, the desired retail price will have been the first thing decided. Then they can plan the hardware around those limits.
I can't imagine MS saying "Let's go with $499, that's worked for us in the past..."
I can't imagine MS saying "Let's go with $499, that's worked for us in the past..."
Fair enough, I probably shouldn't have lumped it in with the Zen craziness.
Indeed.
EventHorizon
Member
Scorpio is not a new generation of hardware. All games that run on it also run on an XB1S. Scorpio can't FAIL anymore than a premium 2TB XB1 S could fail. Selling Scorpio at a loss in no way makes money for Microsoft. Any gamers who would buy a premium console already owns a console. They have a gaming library and online subscription that makes it incredibly difficult to switch platforms. On top of that, this generation is already half over. There is simply less time to make up any loss on subsidies with new game royalties.
What all that means is that Scorpio will have two main audiences. The first will be Xbox owners looking to upgrade. Since Microsoft makes the same amount of money if you buy Halo for XB1 S or Scorpio, they don't care which console you own. Losing money on a subsidy to get you to upgrade to Scorpio only loses them money. The second group most likely to buy Scorpio will be those enthusiast gamers who must play the best regardless of cost. By definition they are price insensitive and will buy a Scorpio regardless of how much it costs. Lowering Scorpio's price for these two groups does nothing for Microsoft.
The audiences a lower price would matter aren't targeted by Scorpio. First, new console buyers don't matter because if someone has not bought an 8th generation console yet, they are casual and price sensitive. They would instead will get a cheaper base PS4 or XB1S. Second most normal PS4 only owners won't buy Scorpio for the lock-in reasons already mentioned.
Scorpio is a premium high end console targeted at the high end niche enthusiast market. It is there to boost the Xbox brand, not to increase the Xbox market share.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
My internet shit the bed last night so I'm way late with this.
We're living in a world where hardware (specifically the GPU) that's pretty much relatively on par with what the PS4 had in 2013 is now for some reason being seen as something that's going to be ridiculously expensive... I don't remember, were people saying the same thing about the PS4 before the price announcement? Are 12 1GB GDDR5 modules in 2017 more expensive than 16 512MB GDDR5 modules in 2013? Heat sinks with vapor chambers aren't some new, cutting edge cooling solution that's really expensive either, more expensive, yes but not "require retail cost to be $100" expensive and neither is a UHD Blu-Ray drive that even the XBO S has. The process has further matured and fab availability is probably better than it was last year as well.
And this talk of the SoC/APU being custom well no shit so were the PS4's, the Pro's and the XBO's. The DF articles/videos are pure marketing buzzword wankery to get people hyped on this idea that this really is some high end, "premium" enthusiast product and that's pretty much all it is, marketing. I could see them putting out a $449.99 SKU with some extras (including a larger HDD) but nothing in the console makes it look like it needs to be at least $499.99 for MS to break even or have a razor thing margin. I said it before but all the talk just seems to be setting themselves up to drop the $399.99 bomb at E3 and generate positive buzz.
A 2TB SSD and an Elite controller? Would you really be willing to spend ~$900 on a console that at best has low-mid range hardware in it?
We're living in a world where hardware (specifically the GPU) that's pretty much relatively on par with what the PS4 had in 2013 is now for some reason being seen as something that's going to be ridiculously expensive... I don't remember, were people saying the same thing about the PS4 before the price announcement? Are 12 1GB GDDR5 modules in 2017 more expensive than 16 512MB GDDR5 modules in 2013? Heat sinks with vapor chambers aren't some new, cutting edge cooling solution that's really expensive either, more expensive, yes but not "require retail cost to be $100" expensive and neither is a UHD Blu-Ray drive that even the XBO S has. The process has further matured and fab availability is probably better than it was last year as well.
And this talk of the SoC/APU being custom well no shit so were the PS4's, the Pro's and the XBO's. The DF articles/videos are pure marketing buzzword wankery to get people hyped on this idea that this really is some high end, "premium" enthusiast product and that's pretty much all it is, marketing. I could see them putting out a $449.99 SKU with some extras (including a larger HDD) but nothing in the console makes it look like it needs to be at least $499.99 for MS to break even or have a razor thing margin. I said it before but all the talk just seems to be setting themselves up to drop the $399.99 bomb at E3 and generate positive buzz.
Memorabilia
Member
Unless there are actual hard metrics which can correlate "boosting the brand" with an actual uptick in profit, that sort of phrase is just new-agey gobbledegook that has little bearing on the bottom line. If they aren't using Scorpio as a way to increase market share then it's purpose within a company designed around profit motive is shaky at best. Market share is king. Realistically the Scorpio needs to supplant the Xbone as the mainstream SKU as quickly as possible. Calling it "Premium" is one thing. Pricing it as a "premium" niche product out of reach or justification for most of the target market makes zero sense. The Xbone already "failed" and isn't going to suddenly become more desirable because the brand is supposedly "boosted" by a better product that most people can't or won't buy because it costs too much. The Xbone isn't going to drive demand. The Scorpio *might* at the right price, but beyond bragging rights will be wasted if priced too high.
EDIT: I say this as someone who owns (3) Elites, an Xbone S 2TB and plans to buy a Scorpio 2TB day 1 regardless of the price.
449. I think that is probably the minimum price given the hardware- maybe something like $429. At these prices Sony has to respond.
I hope they offer an upgrade or trade in option.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
The perceived performance of the Scorpio is similar to that of the PS4 at launch, 4 years ago. Maybe a little higher.
That came in at $399. While there's nothing wrong with a $499 Scorpio it would certainly lose the sting in it's tail!
That came in at $399. While there's nothing wrong with a $499 Scorpio it would certainly lose the sting in it's tail!
The PS4 Slim is already out-selling the Xbox One S despite the latter being cheaper and likely will continue to do so. £430 Scorpio would conceivably be up against a £330-350 PS4 Pro bundled with RDR2 or Destiny 2. A £100 more expensive Scorpio doesn't stop the bleeding, it makes things worse.
Well said.
Yeah, I am not 100% sure either, but Sony would be able to. They might not care if the price of the scorpio is too high.
You wanting it to be 399 won't make it happen. "It should be 399" doesn't help either. All the components you mention and many other don't magically get cheaper within a year. RAM prices are going up instead of down for example. The overall package won't be cheap.
Yeah, IMO you are pretty naive. I don't know why you still believe that microsoft cares about you. Don't get me wrong, I do think that they might read this and other stuff, but no way in hell do they actually care. If there is a feature you want, you might get it, but only if it benefits them, not you.
You pretty much told them with your post that you will buy any shit they throw at you. You are the number one customer they will ignore! I absolutely hate this "bu buuu buuut I am a paying customer" mentality.
BTW, WHY the fuck do you think Scorpio exists because neo gaf wants it? This is absurd! We are a minority and you think we birthed Scorpio, because of our demands? The Scorpio is not what we asked for, we asked for first party support. Instead, MS is canceling first party games, closing studios and building a new console instead. I do like the specs of Scorpio and the idea of 4k gaming in my living room, but the almost nonexistent first party support makes the Scorpio totally insignificant to me. I might get it later for third party games though(when it get's a looot cheaper). Look back and you will see that it's not about the most powerful consoles, but about the GAMES! Can't wait what games they have in store this E3 if it's Halo, GoW or Forza again I might puke.
Gunmonkey36
Member
Imo, I think the best they can do is $449. Something tells me that the overall cost for this(at least for the initial run of units) is close to $390, based on my garbage mental math.
I see $449 and then a bundled game from their studio for perceived value. Probably forza because it shows off the system so well.
I see $449 and then a bundled game from their studio for perceived value. Probably forza because it shows off the system so well.
Chuck the Bean
Member
Since all accessories (see controlers) from Xbox one will work with Scorpio, could they release the console alone at 399$ and a bundle with an elite controller and a game at 499$?
Could be a regular controler too at that price...
Could be a regular controler too at that price...
Pjsprojects
Member
This is spot on.
Exactly this. The damn thing will be $399 at the base level. Nothing we know suggests otherwise right now; it very much looks like they targeted a $399 price point and put the best hardware in they could at that price point. At $499 this thing is dead in the market IMO. It has to be able to compete with the Pro.
SlipperyFishes
Banned
I wonder if some analysts get confused between the differences in the Apple-premium market and the console gaming market. Not every device has to retail at the high end when it's classified "premium"
They're also possibly basing the sticker price on the launch price for Xbox One which was $100 higher and not premium compared to the competition. Kinect added a lot of sunk costs there and doesn't factor in this time.
$399 is possible.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Exactly, it has to go toe to toe with the PSPro, and come out on top.
Being significantly more expensive for not a huge amount more benefit (for your average consumer) achieves nothing. It puts them in the same damaging situation they placed themselves in at the start of the generation.
They can sell it for higher but only their core customers will buy it. But maybe they are happy with that who knows.
Being significantly more expensive for not a huge amount more benefit (for your average consumer) achieves nothing. It puts them in the same damaging situation they placed themselves in at the start of the generation.
They can sell it for higher but only their core customers will buy it. But maybe they are happy with that who knows.
The Bookerman
Member
They won't sell you a box at 400$. They have more stuff than the competition: they can justify the price. 500$.
It's a premium product not THE base product.
It's not realistic to see them sell this console at a 100$ Loss. Microsoft's stock holders would kill them.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
If that was the case then sure I agree. But I don't see why the build cost doesn't come in somewhere around $400.
Then as said before, any small loss can be offset by higher priced bundles. Like a larger HDD and digital game pack in. Cost's MS $40-50 and they pass it on to the consumer for $100 extra.
Plus the cheaper it is the more they sell. It's looking like an attractive machine and $399 is the standard and known best price for consoles. More sales equals more software and services bought which bring in more money long term than a bit extra on the upfront console cost.
Eh, dude. None of the internals are expensive enough to warrant a 499$ price. They went with Jaguar/Polaris for a reason.
Nothing about the Pro says $399 either but it's still $399. Companies work on how much profit they can make. If they see they can justify the price at $499 to gain more,then that's what their gonna do.
The Pro made sense at 399$, which before that was the MSRP for the regular PS4.
A year later, 399$ makes sense for Scorpio. It's not like it's packing bleeding edge architectures or the newest chips. 499$ would get them laughed out of the room.
These people are about profit and what ever bring them the most money. They leverage losses and potential gains, if they think they could sell less for more they will do it. If they think they could sell for less and still manage to make more they'll do that too. No one's saying that $399 is not possible. Let's just not say $499 is impossible for this specific hardware. Remember consoles are always overpriced for the specs their given.
outunderthestars
Banned
$399 if MS wants to be aggressive about regaining marketshare. $499 if they are ok with it being a niche item.
That said, I am ready to preorder as soon as Best Buy has them available. (never preordering from Amazon again)
That said, I am ready to preorder as soon as Best Buy has them available. (never preordering from Amazon again)
Not really, read the thread, most people are expecting as much. Native 4k gaming box that plays multplats the best for 499 seems fine. Scorpio is doing more then Pro out the box too so I don't it's far fetched.
Eddie_Khaled
Member
I 2nd this very much
No worrieswe're good to agree to disagree!
Trust me I hope I'm wrong lol =)
Best Buy is really good for pre-orders. Got two Switches on launch day (one for me and one for my brother).
Was surprised to see so many have issues with Amazon. Hearing them made me pretty much decide to only pre-order consoles on Best Buy's website.
Yeah, they were actually. Go read the 8GB GDDR5 announcement thread for a look back at fun times.
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