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American hunter illegally killed Cecil the Lion

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M

m_dorian

Member
This is sick. The guy is a cold blooded murderer, he does not hunt to survive, he wants to kill. I hope he gets the punishment he deserves.
 
M

MJPIA

Member
Legally extradition might happen.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/walter-palmer-extradition_55b8ce10e4b0a13f9d1ad47d
No news has yet emerged about Zimbabwe requesting Palmer's extradition. But legal observers said that if the request were made, it might well be granted.

A bilateral extradition treaty between the U.S. and Zimbabwe has been in effect since April 2000. The treaty applies to anyone charged with or convicted of "an extraditable offense," which is defined as "one punishable under the laws of both Contracting States by deprivation of liberty for a period of more than one year or by a more severe penalty."

The idea of being punishable in both countries is called "dual criminality" -- or, in plain language, means that what Palmer did in Zimbabwe would also have to be illegal in the United States, explains Jens David Ohlin, a Cornell law professor who is an expert in international and criminal law. Ohlin thinks that rule "seems pretty easily satisfiable" in this case.

Eric T. Freyfogle, a University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign law professor who specializes in wildlife law, agrees. "The general type of conduct involved -- unlawful poaching of big game -- is certainly a crime in the U.S.," he said.

Freyfogle added that Palmer's alleged conduct could subject him to a number of other federal and state criminal provisions, among them animal cruelty laws and the Lacey Act, which "makes it a federal crime to 'purchase in interstate or foreign commerce' any wildlife taken in violation of any foreign law."

Slate points out that Palmer might also have violated U.S. anti-bribery laws.
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Herbert V. Larson Jr., professor of international law at Tulane, said that he believes Palmer could be extradited, although it's not clear if Zimbabwe would go through with what would likely be a time-consuming and costly process. His advice to Palmer is to hire the best Zimbabwean lawyer he can and go back on his own accord to "plead guilty, and pay a huge fine, and make restitution, and a public apology."

At the moment, Cecil's killer appears to be in hiding, as "dentist hunters" armed with stuffed lions, plus a slew of reporters, are stalking outside his home and office.

Lewis & Clark law professor Daniel Rohlf, an expert in wildlife law, said that he understands the sentiment -- and hopes that Cecil's champions will take this moment to consider how they might fight for wildlife more generally.

"I know people are really fired up about Cecil, but poaching for the illegal wildlife trade does far, far more harm to African wildlife," Rohlf said. "And Republicans in Congress are trying to block new restriction on ivory trade in the U.S."
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Zimbabwe's tourism sector is already getting hit by Cecil's death.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/07/30/zimbabwe-cecil-lion-dentist/30886959/
HARARE, Zimbabwe — The global outcry over the killing of Cecil the iconic lion has already caused a drop in badly needed tourists to this impoverished African nation, government officials said Thursday.

"Our tourism sector, which was booming, has recorded a significant drop in arrivals in the Hwange National Park, where Cecil was being kept,” Zimbabwe Tourism Authority chief Karikoga Kaseke said Thursday without giving exact figures. “The culprits have painted Zimbabwe with a dirty brush. We are now seen as people who do not promote and protect animal rights.”

Kaseke said he would launch an investigation to make sure other illegal hunting wasn’t occurring in the nation's parks. “We are trying to put in some measures to ensure that critical tourist attractions are not tampered with like what happened to Cecil,” he said.

Emmanuel Fundira, president of the Safari Operators Association of Zimbabwe, said foreign tourists in Zimbabwe were forecast to spend about $5 million in the final quarter of 2015 — crucial revenue for this country.

“Many international tourists that were set to visit the country to see Cecil have canceled their trips,” Fundira said. “This killing is a huge loss to our tourism sector that was contributing immensely to the national wealth.”
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Farai Gambiza, 45, a Harare resident, canceled his October trip to Hwange National Park with his wife and children. “We have no reason to go there anymore because Cecil is dead,” Gambiza said. “We want the government to make sure that they bring Palmer to Zimbabwe so that he faces justice."
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I can't wrap my head around the 80% unemployment numbers, they are so mind boggingly big.
http://news.yahoo.com/killer-cecil-lion-extradited-zimbabwe-says-090055378--finance.html
As with many African countries, Zimbabwe issues annual hunting permits for big game such as elephant, buffalo and lion, arguing that the revenues generated can be used for wider wildlife conservation.

Last year, the southern African nation which is still recovering from billion-percent hyperinflation a decade ago, earned $45 million from hunting, Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority head Edison Chadziya told reporters.

Zimbabwe had an estimated 2,000 lions on private and government-owned reserves and issued hunting quotas of 50-70 lions every year, he added.
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Despite the global media coverage of Cecil's killing, the big cat's untimely demise has gone largely unnoticed in Zimbabwe, where average annual income is just over $1,000 and unemployment is higher than 80 percent.
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D

darscot

Member
I find it hard to sympathize with Zimbabwe for losing tourist dollars. They allow hunting and the local guides are under incredible pressure from the client. These guys spend a huge amount of money. The average annual salary is $1000 and rich American is willing to pay $50000 to kill a lion that's 50 years pay for fuck sakes. What could possibly go wrong? These shady fucks sure as shit are not putting money into conservation. I just took my family to Africa and chose Kenya largely because all hunting is illegal. These countries will wise up and learn the real money is not in hunting. Hunting is just easy short term gain.
 
C

Chainsawkitten

Member
Beelzebufo said:
This is so terrible lol. People are calling the MDA to try to get his license revoked too. I'm glad we're all getting mad at this guy for shooting the wrong lion rather than the corrupt governments that allow lions to be killed. I guess some people are idiots. Or this is what happens when we listen to talk show hosts.
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The government didn't let this lion be killed though. That's why they're asking for him to extradited. Because it was against the law.
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
Beelzebufo said:
Meanwhile, the dentist needs to go into hiding after death threats because the lion he shot was on Jimmy Kimmel.
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You can't just blame corrupt governments and excuse the criminal. Yes, the culture that allows hunting played a part, but this dentist piece of shit wasn't abducted and then tied to a crossbow by the arm. He deserves whatever's coming to him IN ADDITION to the culture and corruption that facilitates this stuff needing to be fixed.
 
D

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Sounds like they want to use this guy as a scapegoat. I don't think extradition is right, the focus should be that they allow people to hunt lions in the first place.
 
K

KingSnake

The Birthday Skeleton
Corrupt governments and corrupt government officials exist also because the are a lot of scumbags like this one, who are throwing a lot of money into play just to have it their way.

Scumbags and corrupt officials should both be punished, one doesn't excuse the other. And if one scumbag is punished, even as a scapegoat (although looking at this scumbag's history of killings and at his willingness to shot an elephant, he's anything but innocent, so he doesn't fit the definition), maybe this will serve as example for other scumbags and maybe this will help also with the corruption.
 
B

Beelzebufo

Banned
BenjaminBirdie said:
You can't just blame corrupt governments and excuse the criminal. Yes, the culture that allows hunting played a part, but this dentist piece of shit wasn't abducted and then tied to a crossbow by the arm. He deserves whatever's coming to him IN ADDITION to the culture and corruption that facilitates this stuff needing to be fixed.
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Uhh, I'd argue that he doesn't deserve to have his license taken away and suffer constant death threats no matter what. Claiming otherwise is pretty fundamentally ridiculous I think. This whole thing is a great example of how bad things can get when a TV star tries to convince people to become activists. At least there's only one victim here as opposed to something like anti-Vaxxers, but still. Pretty despicable. This could have been a wake up call for how deplorable and corrupt African countries can be, but now lots of people are bullying some scumbag dentist instead.

DrForester said:
Sounds like they want to use this guy as a scapegoat. I don't think extradition is right, the focus should be that they allow people to hunt lions in the first place.
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Pretty much. But think of Cecil #CecilLivesMatter
 
I

Imm0rt4l

Member
Beelzebufo said:
So you're okay with him being hated by everyone and receiving death threats even if it detracts from a focus on lion conservation?

Wait different people lol
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I'm ok with him being hated. He deserves the hate. Nobody here is advocating threats of violence or that he gets killed.
 
captainnapalm

captainnapalm

Member
Somehow can't see him being extradited to a failed state like Zimbabwe still under the grip of a 91-year-old crazy person like Robert Mugabe.

Of course, Zimbabwe's troubles may be precisely why he was there in the first place. Looking to take advantage of the state of chaos there.
 
K

Kallor

Member
Dai101 said:
#catlivesmatter '??????????????????????????????????????????

No fucking way....... suddenly my urge to kick every fucking cat i see is rising.
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Dai101 said:
Calm. The fuck. Down.

2- I've NEVER in my fucking life harmed (intentionally) an animal, ok, maybe rats and mice with a broom but that was my job, i didn't enjoy it and always tried to trap them alive and somehow putting them in the street or the back lot near where i worked. I admit that i once ran over a pigeon but that was because it landed exactly down a tire when i was pulling my truck back to park, there was no way i could see it.
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LOL! Even came back with "well I'm friends with rats, so its okay!"

Good gracious. This whole thing went further than I ever expected. Can't say I feel bad for the POS.
 
M

Mimosa97

Member
Beelzebufo said:
This is so terrible lol. People are calling the MDA to try to get his license revoked too. I'm glad we're all getting mad at this guy for shooting the wrong lion rather than the corrupt governments that allow lions to be killed. I guess some people are idiots. Or this is what happens when we listen to talk show hosts.
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Do you think people are mad because he shot the " wrong " Lion ?

Are you for real ?

DrForester said:
Sounds like they want to use this guy as a scapegoat. I don't think extradition is right, the focus should be that they allow people to hunt lions in the first place.
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Why no extradition ? That country has laws and the guy violated their laws. Why wouldn't you respect that ?

When someone violates laws in 'murica, you can be sure that the US will try everything in their power to get his country to extradite him to the US. But I guess this is 'murica we're talking about and not some stupid ass african country right ?
 
L

leadbelly

Banned
Chariot said:
o-SUDAN-NORTHERN-WHITE-RHINO-facebook.jpg

Only four of those left and under heavy guard.
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The irony is that the southern white rhino was brought back from the brink of extinction exactly because hunting was made legal. It basically opened up huge areas of private land for rhino conservation because of the potential to make profit out of it.

That's the thing really when debating this topic. It is important to make a distinction between legal trophy hunting that aids conservation and illegal poaching.
 
D

darscot

Member
leadbelly said:
The irony is that the southern white rhino was brought back from the brink of extinction exactly because hunting was made legal. It basically opened up huge areas of private land for rhino conservation because of the potential to make profit out of it.

That's the thing really when debating this topic. It is important to make a distinction between legal trophy hunting that aids conservation and illegal poaching.
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I'm so sick of this argument, there is 10x the profit to go see these animals as there is to kill one. Why do hunters pretend they are the only people going to Africa to spend money when they are complete minority?
 
B

BobLoblaw

Banned
To me, this guy is no different from anyone else who hunts animals for sport (not those that hunt and end up eating what they've killed). It's barbaric and we as a species should have evolved beyond killing an animal just because we want to experience the "thrill." I say, send his ass back to Zimbabwe and let them sort it out.
 
L

leadbelly

Banned
darscot said:
I'm so sick of this argument, there is 10x the profit to go see these animals as there is to kill one. Why do hunters pretend they are the only people going to Africa to spend money when they are complete minority?
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I think you misunderstand the situation. If we take the white rhino for example, it was on the brink of extinction. There is no profit to be made on tourism if there are no animals left. Poaching is not only the problem it is also habitat loss. By making trophy hunting legal what that did was open up huge areas of private land. Basically that creates more habitat for these animals. It also gives people an incentive to breed these animals.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
DiipuSurotu said:
The US is mad when other countries don't extradite people to the US (for example: convicted child anal rapist Roman Polanski). They better extradite this guy.
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I just don't see it honestly. Poor African country, rich white dude, and so on.

I'd be shocked if it happens.
 
-COOLIO-

-COOLIO-

The Everyman
well, if nothing else, im really glad this is the leading to a discussion on the merits (or lack thereof) of sport hunting.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
-COOLIO- said:
well, if nothing else, im really glad this is the leading to a discussion on the merits (or lack thereof) of sport hunting.
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Sports hunting will still happen.

These countries get tons of money from them.

I think I read that 600 lions were hunted legally in Zimbabwe last year.

The issues here are more complex than the current outrage is allowing to be discussed.

We're talking about 3rd world countries with very little money or resources to do more massive conservation efforts.

If we really want to do something about people should donate more money to places like the WWF and other legit conservation groups.
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
darscot said:
I'm so sick of this argument, there is 10x the profit to go see these animals as there is to kill one. Why do hunters pretend they are the only people going to Africa to spend money when they are complete minority?
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The argument is not that hunters are the only people going to Africa to spend money. It's that hunters spend a lot more per person than photo tourists, and you can make more money with less people. It's also cheaper to startup a game hunting ranch vs a safari ranch. And cheaper to maintain. And you can do it in land that is not very pretty.

It's also the economics of the issue. The Southern White Rhino population was able to be saved from extinction in the 60s/70s, but their population achieved the greatest boost once the market price for breeding new rhinos became greater than the market price for killing them.
 
D

darscot

Member
leadbelly said:
I think you misunderstand the situation. If we take the white rhino for example, it was on the brink of extinction. There is no profit to be made on tourism if there are no animals left. Poaching is not only the problem it is also habitat loss. By making trophy hunting legal what that did was open up huge areas of private land. Basically that creates more habitat for these animals. It also gives people an incentive to breed these animals.
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There is way more private land opened to not kill safari, its simple supply and demand. You guys can pretend land is only opened to hunt but its false. I don't know the percentage of people that go to Aftrica to kill compared to not kill but I assure you the number of non kill is massively larger. If you are going to open your private land which demographic would you cater too? I am completely aware of the situation as I just return from Africa a couple weeks ago. Anyone that understand the basics of business and mathematics can comprehend hunting is nothing more than a tiny minority. Yes there are people in Africa that run shitty business and are willing to try and make a quick buck of hunting and poaching. The people that are putting in the effort and the dollars are not the hunters.
 
F

FunkyMunkey

Banned
Beelzebufo said:
This is so terrible lol. People are calling the MDA to try to get his license revoked too. I'm glad we're all getting mad at this guy for shooting the wrong lion rather than the corrupt governments that allow lions to be killed. I guess some people are idiots. Or this is what happens when we listen to talk show hosts.
Click to expand...

can we be mad at both aspects? no way it's got to be black and white as usual
 
D

darscot

Member
Rentahamster said:
It's that hunters spend a lot more per person than photo tourists.
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Well I can tell you that I spent a lot longer in the country with my family and spent more than this dick head hunter. I also saw teams of pro photographers, that spent weeks trying to get that perfect photo and they spend a shit load more than me. A photographer does not need one look to pull the trigger, they spend days trying to capture the perfect moment with the correct light. They spend weeks with the animals not 5 seconds to kill it. Its simple math to figure out what cost more. You guys can go on and on about this but it is simple not true.
 
L

Le_Samourai

Banned
leadbelly said:
The irony is that the southern white rhino was brought back from the brink of extinction exactly because hunting was made legal. It basically opened up huge areas of private land for rhino conservation because of the potential to make profit out of it.

That's the thing really when debating this topic. It is important to make a distinction between legal trophy hunting that aids conservation and illegal poaching.
Click to expand...

This.
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
darscot said:
Well I can tell you that I spent a lot longer in the country with my family and spent more than this dick head hunter. I also saw teams of pro photographers, that spent weeks trying to get that perfect photo and they spend a shit load more than me. A photographer does not need one look to pull the trigger, they spend days trying to capture the perfect moment with the correct light. They spend weeks with the animals not 5 seconds to kill it. Its simple math to figure out what cost more. You guys can go on and on about this but it is simple not true.
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I doubt you spent anywhere near $50,000-$100,000+, which is what some of these hunts auction for.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...kill-an-endangered-rhino-may-save-the-species

Look, I posted more data and articles in the posts where I replied to you earlier in the thread that is based on research and not anecdotal stories. You can either believe them, or not.
 
B

besada

Banned
I am not a fan of sport hunters. I think they're usually shitty human beings who'd be better off spending their money on therapy to figure out why they feel the need to kill animals and mount their remains to make themselves feel good.

That said, sport hunting is legal. So, while I'm personally repulsed by it, the people doing it aren't breaking any laws.

Except, of course, for when they do. To me, the issue here is whether he knew that the guides had drawn the lion out from the preserve. If he did, he's guilty and deserves punishment from Zimbabwe authorities. If he didn't, then he was mislead by his guides and acted out of ignorance.

Beyond that, while folks have the right to be upset or think poorly of him, no one has the right to harass and threaten other people.
 
D

darscot

Member
Rentahamster said:
I doubt you spent anywhere near $50,000-$100,000+, which is what some of these hunts auction for.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...kill-an-endangered-rhino-may-save-the-species

Look, I posted more data and articles in the posts where I replied to you earlier in the thread that is based on research and not anecdotal stories. You can either believe them, or not.
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You can post all the online nonsense you want, I understand addition. I can do the math and understand how much National Geographic, Discovery Channel, BBC, all the University Research, all the Conservationist all the Tourists and Photographers and everything I've missed. Its a shit load more than hunting no matter how much you auction to kill one specific animal.
 
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