Support NeoGAF

[Lost Fragment]

I know, it's just that every time the subject comes here, he keeps asking for nerfs. ^^
I'm not against some of them (U1 was needed), but I do think some others are not really needed nor justified. She has such a hard time escaping any form of pressure that giving up on her ultra for a one-time joker wasn't THAT exaggerated.

Cuz every time they nerf something of her's people hella overreact. But also because I think she's a dumb character, and I don't think characters in her archetype should be objectively considered top tier.

I'm not keen on get out of jail free cards on principle. This is pretty similar to the Rose orbs argument and Super orbs was dumb too.

I mean you can say that Mak has a hard time escaping pressure so letting her keep U2 startup invincibility is OK, but on the other hand, Makoto is also one of the only characters whose oki game is gonna actually be superior in Ultra. Letting her have a free opportunity to reset the situation and potentially run a train on 75% of your lifebar is dumb.

Her weakness is that she can't handle pressure, and even that I think isn't as bad as some people think. If a Mak player is getting rushed down, they should have to deal with the consequences of fucking up.

 

[Coffeeling]

Combofiend is making SFIV a "no fuck around" game. A lot of stuff that was completely safe, or a "get out of jail card" like he says, is gone. But I think Makoto will be ok, ex red focus will be great for her

One of my favourite things about KOF13 is how most specials are negative on block. Not necessarily to the point of unsafety, but throwing one on block ends your pressure. The characters can do a crapton of stuff so that one thing helps keep the madness in check somewhat. A lot of stuff is "safe" due to sheer ambiguity like many characters' rekkas (featuring juicy numbers like -8, -13 and such on block) and Benimaru's Iaido Kick (-15). You probably won't punish because you can eat the followup or it might've been another move. You had the read, though? Someone'll have trouble sitting tonight.

 

[Azure J]

One of my favorite Mystery Game moments was when they were doing SF1, people were having issues with the inputs, and then Funkdoc comes up and just DPs the hell out of everyone.

I remember this and want to watch it so badly now.

One of my all time favorite moments in fighting game streams.

Triple P'd on.

...

Thank God for FightingGAF. :lol

Don't some people consider Makoto a candidate for top 5? Lol at you guys bitching that she didn't get 100% buffs. So she doesn't have a stupid get out of jail free card and can't mindlessly axe kick point blank against characters with 3f reversals. Big deal.

Cuz every time they nerf something of her's people hella overreact. But also because I think she's a dumb character, and I don't think characters in her archetype should be objectively considered top tier.

I'm not keen on get out of jail free cards on principle. This is pretty similar to the Rose orbs argument and Super orbs was dumb too.

I mean you can say that Mak has a hard time escaping pressure so letting her keep U2 startup invincibility is OK, but on the other hand, Makoto is also one of the only characters whose oki game is gonna actually be superior in Ultra. Letting her have a free opportunity to reset the situation and potentially run a train on 75% of your lifebar is dumb.

Her weakness is that she can't handle pressure, and even that I think isn't as bad as some people think. If a Mak player is getting rushed down, they should have to deal with the consequences of fucking up.

From what I've seen in the transition from AE to 2012 and this transition to Ultra, Makoto players are kinda like Dante players when the transition from Vanilla to Ultimate occurred. The character is still oppressive as hell but doesn't get things "for free" like the upper echelon does and thus is automatically kneejerk'd and called garbage.

Spoiler

Mind you there are some things I disagreed with regarding Dante changes but that's old news at this point.

 

[Shito]

Cuz every time they nerf something of her's people hella overreact.

I don't know, half of this page seems to be about people being sad about *some* of those nerfs, and half of them being happy. Hardly qualifies as "overreacting" in any case, if you ask me. ^^

I'm not keen on get out of jail free cards on principle. This is pretty similar to the Rose orbs argument and Super orbs was dumb too.

I mean you can say that Mak has a hard time escaping pressure so letting her keep U2 startup invincibility is OK, but on the other hand, Makoto is also one of the only characters whose oki game is gonna actually be superior in Ultra. Letting her have a free opportunity to reset the situation and run a train on 75% of your lifebar is dumb.

I can see your point, but don't necessarily agree with it. The opportunity is not "free": you have to give up your ultra for it, and in some match ups you had to give up your better choice of ultra for it. It's sometimes worth it, but not quite free either. Ultra W would have made it way better, but scaling them to 60% and nerfing her U1 already address this problem.
Also, as I'm sure you've experienced with her, some people can run a train on her without caring too much about the consequences. Even though wake up delay will help a bit, she'll have a much harder time against vortex characters that ALSO can kill a big chunk of your bar in a few seconds.

All I'm saying is not agreeing on *some* nerfs doesn't mean people are overreacting or not being objectives, and that different opinions can exist when it comes to subject like this where no absolute truth can be found.

 

[Dahbomb]

Makoto was never the best character in the game like Dante was and Dante within the context of MVC3 is not a dumb character. So I am not sure how that comparison is apt.

People get sad and over react whenever any character is nerfed. Many were upset over Magneto nerfs when all that happened was Magneto being nerfed from top 5 in the game.... to top 5 in the game.

I think the worse reaction was with Morrigan and her air dash nerf. The Morrigan forums were in a hissy fit and were swearing to never play the character again.

 

[The Crow King]

Capcom JPN just has it out for a few characters.

They gave Vega tools in the early builds to make him competitive, but then took them away. Some were nutty, like the super fast CH, but the +1f on jab would have made him consistent.

Combo fought to get those changes out there, but Capcom JPN just didn't want vega to be strong.

Anyways, the way ultra is shaping up, you need a 3 frame move of some kind to be a real contender. Time to learn decapre I suppose.

 

[WesternHeretic]

I was pretty sad at Zero's hard knock down nerf on his buster.

Boy... looked how that turned out.

ZOOP ZOOP!

 

[Thomasorus]

I totally agree with that. I can understand him thinking her come back potential being on the low side could hinder him in tournaments, though.
Good thing I'm only playing for fun: she seems perfect for me!

Played her a lot during ROF3, and I really, really like her too. She is plainly fun. Her normals aren't incredible but they aren't bad too. She builds meter correctly with the rekka. The high/low mixups are nice, the mix of pokes, Rekka or pokes, reverse kick are also fun, and the reverse kick can be comboed even when hitting normal.

But as Uryo said, she has nothing that seemed broken. For example the reverse kick EX is not tracking the oponent, he has a fixed range, and that's too bad... But it would be way to strong because it does reasonable damage.

I'll main her in Ultra too. French guys fall for traps. :3

 

[kirblar]

Capcom JPN just has it out for a few characters.

They gave Vega tools in the early builds to make him competitive, but then took them away. Some were nutty, like the super fast CH, but the +1f on jab would have made him consistent.

Combo fought to get those changes out there, but Capcom JPN just didn't want vega to be strong.

Anyways, the way ultra is shaping up, you need a 3 frame move of some kind to be a real contender. Time to learn decapre I suppose.

In some of the early location tests after the initial wave of buffs they had a massive problem with defensive/charge characters being too good and making the game play badly.

 

[BakedYams]

I was pretty sad at Zero's hard knock down nerf on his buster.

Boy... looked how that turned out.

ZOOP ZOOP!

Anyone ready for a marvel patch theory time?

Spoiler

Kappa

 

[Shito]

Played her a lot during ROF3, and I really, really like her too. She is plainly fun. Her normals aren't incredible but they aren't bad too. She builds meter correctly with the rekka. The high/low mixups are nice, the mix of pokes, Rekka or pokes, reverse kick are also fun, and the reverse kick can be comboed even when hitting normal.

But as Uryo said, she has nothing that seemed broken. For example the reverse kick EX is not tracking the oponent, he has a fixed range, and that's too bad... But it would be way to strong because it does reasonable damage.

I'll main her in Ultra too. French guys fall for traps. :3

Yeah, she seems like a really well rounded character, that can play a lot of styles and at all the distances, but with nothing that really stands out as "wow that's so damn good"... Capcom, please buff her!

I'm quite eager to play her, because I really enjoy characters with mix ups and traps, but also because I usually tend to play characters with a strong offense, and am always a bit too reckless in my play. I feel like with her I'll be forced to switch gear at times and play the waiting and footsies game a lot more, which will probably help me progress.

 

[Dahbomb]

In some of the early location tests after the initial wave of buffs they had a massive problem with defensive/charge characters being too good and making the game play badly.

I think the word you are looking for here is "lame".

 

[kirblar]

I think the word you are looking for here is "lame".

Lame is a style of play.

Getting time-outs and hyper-defensive play where it's difficult to open people up is just bad gameplay.

 

[Dahbomb]

Lame is a style of play.

Getting time-outs and hyper-defensive play where it's difficult to open people up is just bad gameplay.

You just described lame play.

 

[BakedYams]

Lame is a style of play.

Getting time-outs and hyper-defensive play where it's difficult to open people up is just bad game design.

Fixed it for you.

 

[WesternHeretic]

Lame is for people who aren't stylish.

STYLE > ALL!

 

[kirblar]

You just described lame play.

Lame is a style of play a player uses. It doesn't describe systemic problems that lead to a game being not fun to play. (a la SFxT Vanilla) Lame play is normally active and intelligent. Down-backing all day isn't

Fixed it for you.

Nah, this is tuning/balancing. Design is broader.

 

[QisTopTier]

Lame is for people who aren't stylish.

STYLE > ALL!

So you are a fan of Seth?

The only truely stylish character in SF4 is Ibuki.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Lame is for people who aren't stylish.

STYLE > ALL!

that cammy mirror grand final yesterday was totally stylish

 

[WesternHeretic]

So you are a fan of Seth?

That n**** ugly.

that cammy mirror grand final yesterday was totally stylish

That wasn't stylish. That was just two white girls trying to jump into each other.

 

[Smooth Operator]

that cammy mirror grand final yesterday was totally stylish

It was even better than a dmc3 combo video

 

[Dahbomb]

Lame is a style of play a player uses. It doesn't describe systemic problems that lead to a game being not fun to play. (a la SFxT Vanilla)

Can you really say that the systems in SF4 greatly favors lame play?

If not then why are they focusing on re-nerfing all these "defensive" characters.

I'll tell you why... it's because lame play doesn't get stream views, hype and people playing the game.

 

[BakedYams]

Nah, this is tuning/balancing. Design is broader.

I personally say bad game design since it sucks some life out of the game when someone is "laming" it out with a charge character. Been a personal gripe ever since I learned how to play Guile back in super.

 

[kirblar]

Can you really say that the systems in SF4 greatly favors lame play?

If not then why are they focusing on re-nerfing all these "defensive" characters.

I'll tell you why... it's because lame play doesn't get stream views, hype and people playing the game.

It's because you can't have defense be the best thing to do in a game- you need to force players to try and end the game. (Hence High/Low/Throw - defensive player is at a disadvantage.)

SF4 didn't play lame. But with DWU, SRK FADC nerf, and RF the defensive charge characters got hugely buffed by the system changes (see: Chun), and had to have many of their buffs rolled back from the first rounds of tests.

 

[Busaiku]

Cody is stylish. Just look at those sandals.

 

[toddhunter]

I personally say bad game design

Games don't play lame, players do.

Team EG will always find a way.

 

[QisTopTier]

The only hype lame character is Nu-13

 

[WesternHeretic]

I still stand by my comment that lame play is fun play, but terrible viewing.

It's like baseball or golf. It's not bad when you're playing, but when you're watching?

I mean driving a car at 180+ MPH = Fun. Watching a bunch of cars go in circles for hours on the T.V? BORING!

 

[Stabby McSter]

lame is a test of patience. i play call of duty so RUSHDOWN ALL DAY BABY XXXYOLOSWAG420XXX

i played vanilla rushdown sagat. it was all sorts of terrible. :<

 

[Busaiku]

Bridget is hype.

 

[Dahbomb]

It's because you can't have defense be the best thing to do in a game- you need to force players to try and end the game. (Hence High/Low/Throw - defensive player is at a disadvantage.)

Right which automatically means that defensive characters are going to automatically be weaker.

There is no way that characters like Guile or Dhalsim will be top tier in Ultra... but you can bet your candy ass that characters like Yun, Viper would be up there.

 

[kirblar]

Right which automatically means that defensive characters are going to automatically be weaker.

There is no way that characters like Guile or Dhalsim will be top tier in Ultra... but you can bet your candy ass that characters like Yun, Viper would be up there.

Sagat, Guile, Juri, and Chun are all very good in the Arcade release.

 

[BakedYams]

Games don't play lame, players do.

Team EG will always find a way.

When the option is available/viable then it isn't the players fault. They are only using the tools given to them. When those same tools suck the life out of a game for being "boring" or "lame" is when the game designers really have to step back and figure out:

"What would actually make this fun for both players?"

But obviously this is something for SF5 or a new alpha should fix. Charge characters should obviously stay but that mechanic certainly has to be tinkered with, even though the game is heavily footsie based, ryu mirror matches are a lot more fun than seeing two charge characters lame it out.

 

[WesternHeretic]

Did anyone enjoy Noel's Brown SF4 set at Thoryuken?

Just throwing that out there.

K Bye

<3

 

[Dahbomb]

Sagat, Guile, Juri, and Chun are all very good in the Arcade release.

I don't think I have seen anyone say Guile is top in Ultra. Dieminion said that if the changes stick then Guile would be the worst he has ever been relative to the rest of the cast. I know Combofiend said that in some build Guile was unbeatable but that does not apply to his current state.

Juri I don't think I would qualify as an exclusively lame character. She can play lame but her offense is pretty good especially her ability to get around zoning.

I will give you Sagat and Chun Li but I don't think their top status will stick for long. Once people fine tune their set ups they will start to feel the heat.

 

[Cybit]

Based on my conversations with Combofiend; it sounded like he's more or less the lead balance & design developer for Ultra for Capcom USA.

Also, wasn't there a 'Sim at Toryuken that plowed through both Justin and K-Brad?

 

[The Crow King]

In some of the early location tests after the initial wave of buffs they had a massive problem with defensive/charge characters being too good and making the game play badly.

I could understand for other characters with better defensive options, but vega has next to 0 safe options for getting out of situations. And I can stand by that weakness so long as in return he has better options to open up the opponent or score damage when he can; Neither of which he has, or is getting.

That leaves him in a pretty bad state as a character.

 

[Coffeeling]

Can you really say that the systems in SF4 greatly favors lame play?

If not then why are they focusing on re-nerfing all these "defensive" characters.

I'll tell you why... it's because lame play doesn't get stream views, hype and people playing the game.

The engine? Sure it does. It makes it hard to open people up, which then leads to people playing more conservatively because mistakes are the main thing compromising your lifebar.

Now, the game doesn't always play out that way. It has a ton of character designs that are balls to the walls aggressive and often even circumvent control over personal space pretty heinously to get in, and then use their tools to pry SF4-bunkers open for that juicy damage.

Pretty much the opposite happens in many other games - the system itself says you're screwed if someone gets in on your face, but the system and character designs let you control space or use movement options to flee to prevent someone from getting on your face. Then we get "defensive" designs built to control space.

Put a good control-of-personal-space character in a game where people are naturally bunkers, and bad stuff happens. Unless you give most characters good tools for prying people open upclose, at which point the normal order of things where you're screwed upclose and try to control your space becomes normal again.

Sim is a model example of what happens when you put someone that's screwed when someone gets in against SF4's weird brand of "I don't give a fuck about your space control" rushdown and focus attacks. Control of personal space is denied, and then murder happens in broad daylight. FChamp gets robbed and Canada cheers to a farce.


tl;dr: Please people, when talking about defensiveness, separate being a hard can to open and being able to deny someone's attempts to get up close. It's important. Lumping all kinds of defense in one bucket leads to bad things.

 

[SimSimIV]

Based on my conversations with Combofiend; it sounded like he's more or less the lead balance & design developer for Ultra for Capcom USA.

Also, wasn't there a 'Sim at Toryuken that plowed through both Justin and K-Brad?

Snafoo. He won a couple of matches against them, but he and his team mate lost in the end, so I wouldn't call it "plowed through". He did have a good grasp of the Cammy and Rufus matchup, but after a couple of games they adjusted and beat him. I would still say Art is a better sim overall, but Snafoo might be better in the Rufus MU at least!

 

[kirblar]

I don't think I have seen anyone say Guile is top in Ultra. Dieminion said that if the changes stick then Guile would be the worst he has ever been relative to the rest of the cast. I know Combofiend said that in some build Guile was unbeatable but that does not apply to his current state.

Juri I don't think I would qualify as an exclusively lame character. She can play lame but her offense is pretty good especially her ability to get around zoning.

I will give you Sagat and Chun Li but I don't think their top status will stick for long. Once people fine tune their set ups they will start to feel the heat.

Die was talking about the post-Arcade version where they removed bs like the auto-correct U1. (And they nerfed a lot.) Not the current arcade version.

Set-ups? You're vastly underestimating how much DWU screws them.

 

[JPS Kai]

that cammy mirror grand final yesterday was totally stylish

C'mon man. You can't just bring that up and not link it for us.

 

[Coffeeling]

I'm sad that the Salim-Bubblan DF @ ROF3 isn't up yet. It was such a great set.

EDIT: I lied, based WGF has uploaded it already:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R0hbcSZfQI

 

[DryEyeRelief]

C'mon man. You can't just bring that up and not link it for us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTko5Se0Mj8

 

[Dahbomb]

Die was talking about the post-Arcade version where they removed bs like the auto-correct U1.

Yea exactly. And guess what they took back some of those Juri buffs too.

The post arcade versions are more indicative of what we will get on the consoles. The arcade version has 2 hit st.MK on Dhalsim, latest build does not. Also post arcade version also has the counter hit Sonic Boom and 950 HP Guile... both considerable nerfs.

And bear in mind that Guile was never rated as better than B+ at the arcades so this is clearly a case of "nerf the lame play/characters".

 

[Imm0rt4l]

So you are a fan of Seth?

The only truely stylish character in SF4 is Ibuki.

Is seth truly stylish if he's just jacking everyone else's swagger?

 

[Busaiku]

How long until LK starts arguing that Kokonoe/Valkenhayn are weak characters.

 

[Stabby McSter]

Is seth truly stylish if he's just jacking everyone else's swagger?

if he rocks it like it's his own shit, then yes

 

[QisTopTier]

How long until LK starts arguing that Kokonoe/Valkenhayn are weak characters.

1 week

 

[Shouta]

I don't think I have seen anyone say Guile is top in Ultra. Dieminion said that if the changes stick then Guile would be the worst he has ever been relative to the rest of the cast. I know Combofiend said that in some build Guile was unbeatable but that does not apply to his current state.

Juri I don't think I would qualify as an exclusively lame character. She can play lame but her offense is pretty good especially her ability to get around zoning.

I will give you Sagat and Chun Li but I don't think their top status will stick for long. Once people fine tune their set ups they will start to feel the heat.

How would Dieminion know. He's been stuck in France this entire time! =P

 

[Dahbomb]

How would Dieminion know. He's been stuck in France this entire time! =P

His impressions were based off of the Stunfest build.

It's probably an over reaction on his part but Guile was definitely nerfed from his arcade version.