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[Darth Ghandi]

Well, it is news, isn't it? A ton of bad stuff also isn't posted that is connected to refugees, but it seems this case is special because... it was a group of people trying to set a man on fire.

Well the context is very important. The OP didn't represent the news very well with a tabloidesque title.
Another part is people saying they should be deported despite that being against both international and EU law.

 

[ClosingADoor]

They are investigating attempted murder, it'll likely be considered arson in any case. The post he was replying to was stating how they set fire to the mans belongings, which would likely amount to arson (also called "murder fire", in direct translation from Swedish, but still a separate crime). Murderous intent would be the differentiator and I don't know if we have conclusive evidence on that point?

It's merely law procedure.

We don't know what they will be charged with or convicted for yet. But the downplaying of the crime is disgusting. It shows a lack of compassion with the victim and more concern for the perpetrators.

Well the context is very important. The OP didn't represent the news very well with a tabloidesque title.

If a quick thinking by-passer didn't grab a fire extinguisher, the title might very well be 100% correct. Luckily, it isn't. Yet they did set fire to a place someone was sleeping in. If you want to argue the title is not 100% accurate, that is fine. But it is far from fake news also.

Another part is people saying they should be deported despite that being against both international and EU law.

People have opinions all the time that conflict with laws. And they are free to express those.

 

[the_batman]

Well the context is very important. The OP didn't represent the news very well with a tabloidesque title.
Another part is people saying they should be deported despite that being against both international and EU law.

are you sure it's against the law to deport criminals?

 

[chillybright]

We really have a defense force for everything.

They set his belongs on fire, while he was on them... but not him. Its like it's okay if I set your house on fire... but I didn't burn you.

Or kids go around setting people on fire... poor kids.


Thsee are the cases they should take a hard liNed stance and give em a boot.

Yeah like wtf?

 

[Dalibor68]

Well the context is very important. The OP didn't represent the news very well with a tabloidesque title.
Another part is people saying they should be deported despite that being against both international and EU law.

It wouldn't necessarily be against international law because the international non-refoulement principle does have exceptions which might or might not apply here. The european non-refoulement version however does indeed not allow these exceptions.

 

[ittoryu]

I think forced labour in prisons is morally dubious, but I have no problem with making inmates (of any prison, not just my "prison island" idea) work for any luxuries they want in prison. For example, if they want to watch TV for an hour they can run on a hamster wheel and generate the electricity for that. I don't want to pay for it.

Ok, this explains a lot. Personal suggestion: don't ever watch how they deal with prisoners in some Norwegian prisons, you might be shocked forever.
Still waiting for you to explain to me how Italy and Greece could have tackled the emergency based on similarities with the UK, but I guess that is something I will never get from you

 

[Darth Ghandi]

If a quick thinking by-passer didn't grab a fire extinguisher, the title might very well be 100% correct. Luckily, it isn't. Yet they did set fire to a place someone was sleeping in. If you want to argue the title is not 100% accurate, that is fine. But it is far from fake news also.

Well facts matter in representing a case imo.

are you sure it's against the law to deport criminals?

Sending people back to a warzone is.

 

[the_batman]

Well facts matter in representing a case imo.



Sending people back to a warzone is.

doesn't the syrian government control a lot of the land, just send them back there.

why aren't they in the warzone fighting for their homes?
instead they're trying to burn a homeless dude.

 

[ittoryu]

doesn't the syrian government control a lot of the land, just send them back there.

why aren't they in the warzone fighting for their homes?
instead they're trying to burn a homeless dude.

Are you actually seriously asking why are they not fighting a WAR? Are you asking the reason why someone would flee from a war zone?

 

[Darth Ghandi]

doesn't the syrian government control a lot of the land, just send them back there.

why aren't they in the warzone fighting for their homes?
instead they're trying to burn a homeless dude.

Well that is assuming the didn't flee cause of the goverment.

Not everyone wants to fight and die, this is why they flee.

 

[the_batman]

Are you actually seriously asking why are they not fighting a WAR? Are you asking the reason why someone would flee from a war zone?

i'm asking why young, capable men are not fighting for their homeland, yes. is that a crazy idea?
i'd sure as hell be fighting for the US if we were invaded or something.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Well that is assuming the didn't flee cause of the goverment.

Not everyone wants to fight and die, this is why they flee.

Going through at least 5 countries to Germany and starting to rob people there indicates there is more going on then just a desire to escape a war. They are perfectly fine with violence as a way to get financial gain or a quick laugh.

 

[Violet_0]

doesn't the syrian government control a lot of the land, just send them back there.

why aren't they in the warzone fighting for their homes?
instead they're trying to burn a homeless dude.

you don't seem to understand why they fled to Europe in the first place, and you use the classic "they should die for their country imo" argument

 

[ClosingADoor]

Well facts matter in representing a case imo.

It does. But I think it goes a bit too far to paint the OP and other posters as having some anti-refugee agenda.

And it does not help that others downplay the events as if it wasn't really serious just because the victim didn't burn to death.

 

[the_batman]

you don't seem to understand why they fled to Europe in the first place, and you use the classic "they should die for their country imo" argument

obviously there are legitimate refugees, but how do you know these guys didn't take advantage of the situation and leave their country to go to a more prosperous western country that will take care of them for free.

 

[captjohnboyd]

obviously there are legitimate refugees, but how do you know these guys didn't take advantage of the situation and leave their country to go to a more prosperous western country that will take care of them for free.

Nor do you know if that's why they did flee. You're making some really big leaps here to support your side of the argument buddy

 

[Violet_0]

obviously there are legitimate refugees, but how do you know these guys didn't take advantage of the situation and leave their country to go to a more prosperous western country that will take care of them for free.

in a case were the country has been fighting an on-going large scale civil war against the own government, you might give them the benefit of the doubt. Economic refugees from safe countries have a very small chance of being granted asylum. We certainly don't and shouldn't send them back if there are concerns about their well-being

 

[the_batman]

Nor do you know if that's why they did flee. You're making some really big leaps here to support your side of the argument buddy

and you're defending arsonists/attempted murderers

 

[MisterFalcon]

in a case were the country has been fighting an on-going large scale civil war against the own government, you might give them the benefit of the doubt. Economic refugees from safe countries have a very small chance of being granted asylum. We certainly don't and shouldn't send them back if there are concerns about their well-being

Sending back people to safe Northern African countries is next to impossible. They tried to kick out the Berlin truck terrorist and could not.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

and you're defending arsonists/attempted murderers

Standing up for the human rights of criminals isn't defending the actions of said criminal.

 

[ittoryu]

i'm asking why young, capable men are not fighting for their homeland, yes. is that a crazy idea?
i'd sure as hell be fighting for the US if we were invaded or something.

Right. Not everyone is like you and not everyone is supposed to be "fighting for the homeland". You have no idea what the horror of a war is.

 

[captjohnboyd]

and you're defending arsonists/attempted murderers

Not one bit. Did anything I say seem like a defense of them to you? I'm only saying that the "policy" of shipping people back to an active warzone is a slippery slope and an awful lot of what your saying sounds Ill informed. My mistake if I'm wrong here

Standing up for the human rights of criminals isn't defending the actions of said criminal.

Thank you. Just to be clear though I'm not even necessarily defending the rights of criminals just calling out obtuse statements like "why aren't they fighting for their country" etc

 

[Violet_0]

Sending back people to safe Northern African countries is next to impossible. They tried to kick out the Berlin truck terrorist and could not.

well, that's another matter, you can't just fly over those countries and drop deported refugees with a parachute. Sure, Europe could threaten economic sanctions, on the other hand these countries could ease up on trying to the stem the tide of incoming refugees and make it easier for them to get to Europe, which is probably the better leverage. And the responsible bureocracies in both Europe and the North African countries are notoriously slow to begin with, the Berlin terrorist got the confirmation of his deportation a day or two after the attack

 

[ClosingADoor]

well, that's another matter, you can't just fly over those countries and drop deported refugees with a parachute. Sure, Europe could threaten economic sanctions, on the other hand these countries could ease up on trying to the stem the tide of incoming refugees and make it easier for them to get to Europe, which is probably the better leverage. And the responsible bureocracies in both Europe and the North African countries are notoriously slow to begin with, the Berlin terrorist got the confirmation of his deportation a day or two after the attack

That was the third deportation attempt in his case. He was denied multiple times.

 

[Violet_0]

That was the third deportation attempt in his case. He was denied multiple times.

oh, I didn't know that
iirc the last one was not denied?

 

[MisterFalcon]

well, that's another matter, you can't just fly over those countries and drop deported refugees with a parachute. Sure, Europe could threaten economic sanctions, on the other hand these countries could ease up on trying to the stem the tide of incoming refugees and make it easier for them to get to Europe, which is probably the better leverage. And the responsible bureocracies in both Europe and the North African countries are notoriously slow to begin with, the Berlin terrorist got the confirmation of his deportation a day or two after the attack

There was an earlier attempt to deport him:

At the center, according to Italian security officials, Amri "took part in a particularly violent riot, when the center was set on fire and several people were injured" and was sentenced for it and robbery[58] to four years in prison, which he served in two jails in Sicily.[57] Amri was released in 2015; according to Italian officials, the Tunisian authorities refused to accept his repatriation to Tunisia, and it is believed that he went to Germany around this time.[57]

This is not slowness but unwillingness on the Tunisian side to take back one of their countrymen. And who can blame them for not wanting back a piece of shit ? In Tunisia there is at the moment also a lot of discussion on how to deal with the thousands of Tunisian fighters if the Syrian war ever ends.

 

[Ambient80]

For some reason I keep reading this as "Seven refugees RESCUED after homeless man set on fire." I'm always like "Wait, what?"

 

[Shiggy]

title of post



content of post


the act is deplorable, however, your title is basically click bait. what these shits did was set his bed on fire while he was on it. That's unbelievably shitty but I find quite a wide difference in intention between

'dur hur lets light this guys bed on fire and watch him freak'
and
'lets burn this man to death'

it's very obvious from the article that the homeless man was NOT set on fire, despite you claiming that in the post title. His bedding was set on fire.

Please note, I'm not defending these dicks, but your post is basically made up news and made up news got fucking donald trump elected, so please try and do better.

When i set your jacket on fire, I did not set you on fire but your jacket. So you would also say that I did not set you on fire?

Well the context is very important. The OP didn't represent the news very well with a tabloidesque title.

In light of the refugees flood to Europe and other recent incidents, it's a vital part of the story and wider discussion. Just because you don't like that not all refugees are angels, I cannot omit key information here.

Yet they did set fire to a place someone was sleeping in. If you want to argue the title is not 100% accurate, that is fine. But it is far from fake news also.

They set fire to the newspapers which covered him.

i'm asking why young, capable men are not fighting for their homeland, yes. is that a crazy idea?
i'd sure as hell be fighting for the US if we were invaded or something.

I'd rather flee when the enemies are ISIS or the Russian/Iran forces and I don't stand a chance.

Going through at least 5 countries to Germany and starting to rob people there indicates there is more going on then just a desire to escape a war. They are perfectly fine with violence as a way to get financial gain or a quick laugh.

Here it seems to be more the quick laugh. On Youtube you find a video of the 7 guys laughing and making fun of the homeless man after setting him on fire. Despicable.

 

[Kinyou]

When i set your jacket on fire, I did not set you on fire but your jacket. So you would also say that I did not set you on fire?

I'm suprised it even has to be spelled out. Plenty of articles mention that the homeless man only wasn't hurt because passerbys acted fast enough.

 

[ClosingADoor]

oh, I didn't know that
iirc the last one was not denied?

I meant his asylum was denied three times. First in Italy, after that two times in Germany. But those first two times his deportation didn't go through. That someone can then continue to walk free while being a convicted criminal and still active in crime shows how ineffective the system is at the moment.

 

[SporeCrawler]

Ill just drop a very interesting interview with a social worker in berlin who has cared for homeless people in berlin for the last 20 years or so. Sorry its only in german

 

[hodgy100]

You are throwing together two very different discussions that are going on in this thread.

Earlier someone said this story was only reported because it was refugees doing the crime and the media had an agenda with this. That is simply untrue in this case, because we have coverage from before the suspects were identified or pictures even released. Most probably it was reported upon internationally because of earlier incidents taking place in the Berlin metro - which were not refugee related.

Now the suspects are identified as refugees, of course the discussion then goes towards how to deal with these people - the ones committing the crime - and there are different opinions about that. Their refugee status holds relevance here, because they were given help and repaid that with doing a very serious crime.


Then in that case the suspects are probably German, as would be assumed when reading a German newspaper about an event in Germany. Nationality is one of the most normal things to mention in news reports when there are foreigners involved. This happens all the time without any xenophobic agenda.

And my German is a bit rusty, but doesn't that linked report talk about how the victim was from Poland? Which is very normal to report, otherwise we would assume he was German, being that the crime took place in Germany, but it is mentioned because it is something else.

This stuff is just basic journalism and nothing strange at all.

ah ok looks like i got a bit mixed up. I'm much more concerned of people (and right wing media like the daily mail and the mirrior ) using the story to further an anti refugee agenda. i dont necessarily believe that the original reporting on this story was to do that.

 

[BigDes]

Ill just drop a very interesting interview with a social worker in berlin who has cared for homeless people in berlin for the last 20 years or so. Sorry its only in german

Considering that it is in German and this a majority English speaking board, could you give us the gist of the interview at the very least?

Just dropping it in the thread is not very helpful for most of us here.

 

[Madness]

Lmao. Why the hell is this a thing on foreign/international websites? Shit like this happens all the time, but when a German guy murders his wife or when young German men beat up someone, nobody really gives a fuck. But hey, let's spread more fear of refugees!! It's not like there are over a million of them living peacefully in Germany. Oh wait, there are.

Curious as to how you are more concerned that this is being reported on outside of Germany than how 7 people with a known propensity for criminal activity, known to police, who were denied entry in countries like Italy were allowed to come to Germany where they attempted the burning murder of an innocent homeless man. That your first thought is oh shit, this is being reported outside Germany, let me deflect and create hypotheticals about how racists will use this to further the narrative against refugees. Damn.

 

[jakonovski]

Curious as to how you are more concerned that this is being reported on outside of Germany than how 7 people with a known propensity for criminal activity, known to police, who were denied entry in countries like Italy were allowed to come to Germany where they attempted the burning murder of an innocent homeless man. That your first thought is oh shit, this is being reported outside Germany, let me deflect and create hypotheticals about how racists will use this to further the narrative against refugees. Damn.

You're asking how bureaucratic fuckups happen. It's not a particular outrage that they're refugees, there was always going to be a certain fraction that successfully commits crime. That it happened to be something fairly outlandish is just randomness (of broken human psychology) at play.

Like I said, the biggest revelation is how few people ever bother to take care of their own humanity.

 

[Dalibor68]

Curious as to how you are more concerned that this is being reported on outside of Germany than how 7 people with a known propensity for criminal activity, known to police, who were denied entry in countries like Italy were allowed to come to Germany where they attempted the burning murder of an innocent homeless man. That your first thought is oh shit, this is being reported outside Germany, let me deflect and create hypotheticals about how racists will use this to further the narrative against refugees. Damn.

Said this better than I ever could. Same as these first reactions of "Pls dont be muslim" posts during attacks when the bodies aren't even cold yet. There seems to be a lack of decency in some people where the own ideology stands above all.

You're asking how bureaucratic fuckups happen. It's not a particular outrage that they're refugees, there was always going to be a certain fraction that successfully commits crime. That it happened to be something fairly outlandish is just randomness (of broken human psychology) at play.

Like I said, the biggest revelation is how few people ever bother to take care of their own humanity.

It's not just randomness, there is a visible trend of "group crimes". In the police report to the Cologne NYE mass sexual abuse they also mention this taharrush phenomen from the arab world.

 

[Violet_0]

Considering that it is in German and this a majority English speaking board, could you give us the gist of the interview at the very least?

Just dropping it in the thread is not very helpful for most of us here.

he's angry that everyone simply ignores the homeless problem and no one cares about them unless there's something to gain from politicizing it. He says that most of the time, when the homeless suffer from abuse and violence, it comes from the far-right scene who are now instrumentalizing the attack. That's pretty much it in the context of the thread topic

 

[ClosingADoor]

ah ok looks like i got a bit mixed up. I'm much more concerned of people (and right wing media like the daily mail and the mirrior ) using the story to further an anti refugee agenda. i dont necessarily believe that the original reporting on this story was to do that.

I think this has become a very counter-productive strategy. We see a lot of times fear for how certain stories would play in the hands of the far right, racists, anti-EU parties, etc, etc. But these things get reported anyway. Better to have it in the mainstream press and have them deliver the facts, then to push it towards some blogs with a clear agenda that have no editorial oversight at all. Doing that would only further the distrust in the mainstream media.

 

[Onlinehero]

he's angry that everyone simply ignores the homeless problem and no one cares about them unless there's something to gain from politicizing it. He says that most of the time, when the homeless suffer from abuse and violence, it comes from the far-right scene who are now instrumentalizing the attack. That's pretty much it in the context of the thread topic

Alright he seems to be saying that violence against homeless is very common in Germany and usually committed by the far right though it is under reported. However he failed to state if homeless people are attacked by groups of people (and if there tends to be at least 7 of them) or if they use fire, though I think we can guess ethnicity of the far right.

Too bad the man with all his experience and insight within the German society still gives a useless testimony! (even though it mirrors the violence in other European societies, as expected. Still, useless!)

 

[Pomerlaw]

I don't know if this is even an option anymore. I agree in principle that you can't send back a refugee to a war torn country, but clearly a majority of Europeans disagree. The protest votes of these people run the risk of sending all refugees home and I do think that the official response to matters like these are important in forming public opinion. It is a fucked up choice to make, but it may be better to send petty criminals back to the countries that they fled from than risking the status of all refugees.

Either they start to do this or Europe will fall to the extreme right sooner or later, making things even worse.

Criminals should be deported.