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[Stallion Free]

Considering practically no game on PC even uses over 4GB of RAM (aside from maybe modded Skyrim), this isn't really a big deal.

On the PS4 you are look at a single pool of ram rather than two separate pools you see on PC. Add those numbers together on PC and they can break 5 pretty easily on nice rigs.

 

[CLEEK]

Prove it.

I think by that, he's just echoing Cerny. He said that the TF performance of the GPU was higher than needed for next gen games. The 'extra' horsepower was there for GPGPU.

Of course, the obvious point is, you give a closed box to game makers, and you'll always get ones who will push it beyond the limits. Sacrificing 1080p/60 for more effects etc. So you could have a 3TF monster GPU in there, and some games would struggle to hit 1080p/60 is the devs go crazy on assets and effects.

 

[backbreaker65]

5GBs for games right and it's still out performing the competition right? Well if they get cut down the resources on the OS or whatever they fill comfortable with giving to devs, I can see the Virtual Reality as a real possibility now more than ever.

 

[Suite Pee]

u mad, Tim Dog?

Seems more than fine for a dedicated gaming console, and the smooth transitions on my roommate's PS4 make it worth it.

 

[BloodMoney]

good read/watch
step 1... shrink the reserve to 1 gig, I have yet to press the share button a single time since launch day.

 

[Raonak]

3gb seems a bit much, especially since 4gb overall RAM was their initial target.
they probably did it for the wiggle room it gives them for the future.

interesting none the less.

 

[StevieP]

Heh......

Considering practically no game on PC even uses over 4GB of RAM (aside from maybe modded Skyrim), this isn't really a big deal. We are also still at the start of the gen, give it time and that 3GB will go down to <2GB.

5GB is fine for now.

The 5 is shared for CPU and GPU usage, so I wouldn't compare what a game uses on task manager in windows because it doesn't include the GPU usage. Which is just as important, and fills just as easily when you're at higher resolutions or use any effects or "move any sliders".

Edit - stallion beat me to it

 

[Havel]

Heh......



The 5 is shared for CPU and GPU usage, so I wouldn't compare what a game uses on task manager in windows because it doesn't include the GPU usage. Which is just as important.

This is true.

But let us also not forget optimization, closed system vs open etc.

 

[Quasar]

I'm pretty sure they're just being conservative with how much RAM they give to devs. They didn't set aside extra ram for the OS on the PS3 and it made it a nightmare for them to add features.

This time around they take an excessive amount of RAM for the OS with the idea being that they can always give devs more RAM later, but they can't take RAM away.

Yeah. The talk was before about how they set aside a bunch of RAM for future non gaming apps. They don't want to get fucked over again like they were with voice chat that they couldn't bring in because of lack of RAM.

 

[StevieP]

This is true.

But let us also not forget optimization, closed system vs open etc.

Lol don't forget "coding to the metal" and 8gb gddr5

 

[TheD]

The 5GB available isn't new news. It was clarified by DF in July last year.



The confusion is probably around the difference between Direct Memory and Flexible Memory. ND were talking about how that manage RAM allocation. I'd imagie they were just refereing to the Direct Memory. That is, the chuck of GDDR5 that they have full control over.

As per the articles from July last year, there is also another section of Flexible RAM which is managed by the Linux based OS. Developers wouldn't be able to micro manage RAM allocation if this was handled by the OS.

So yeah, based on what DF said last year, and what ND are saying now, it seems like devs have access to 5GB of Direct RAM. And if no-one contradicts the DF article fro last year, they will also have access to an additional 1GB of OS managed Flexible RAM.

If that's the case, the posts last year from Thuway et al that games have 6GB to play with are accurate.

*FreeBSD.

 

[Ranik Regana]

Can't wait to see what they'll do with it. That Uncharted 4 is going to be just awesome. And maybe TLoU2

Spoiler

pls

 

[Havel]

Lol don't forget "coding to the metal" and 8gb gddr5

Coding and optimizing for one set of hardware does go a long way, you know.

People forget about it when talking about PC vs Consoles.

 

[Dire]

Fairly shocking that memory fragmentation is such a serious deal on consoles still.

I assume this is solely a consequence of the GPU sharing the memory pool?

 

[Prelude.]

3gb seems a bit much, especially since 4gb overall RAM was their initial target.
they probably did it for the wiggle room it gives them for the future.

interesting none the less.

Probably? They got caught with their pants down last gen. They sure as fuck don't want it to happen again.
They will shrink it when they think it's safe to do it.

 

[R_thanatos]

Just watched the 1 hour vid ..

As a programmer myself that was very intresting and full of small intresting infos

The 80-20 advice is something i use myself quite often when i debug my code after learning the horror of debuging the whole thing ( 100% ) once.

i guess no matter what you program on , some things never change.

 

[dragonbane]

Oh this stuff again nice.

Offtopic, but I just read an article on Kotaku about Tretton leaving Sony and was pretty amused when I found gaffer DocSeuss posting this:

Great. I feel like his frequently arrogant, aggressive, and totally un-earned remarks towards other companies are part of the reason Sony's fanbase has been so toxic for the longest time.

Never had Microsoft or Nintendo fanboys trying to hack my email because I dissed one of their games. Sony fans? They called me a faggot just for considering buying a non-Sony console. Any negative remark about a Sony game gets met with things like "fuck off, and GTFO." One of the big reasons I've been at odds with Sony fans the past two years or so now is because they're just so arrogant, and they've got no room to stand on.

You'd never know I used to be a Sony fanboy, a guy who refused to buy electronics that weren't Sony-produced, a guy who preached the good word of the PSX over the N64 back in the day.

I feel like Tretton was a big part of Sony's marketing arrogance. The fans see that, they start acting like it, and you get the worst fanbase in existence.

"Fuck off" indeed.

http://kotaku.com/great-i-feel-like-his-frequently-arrogant-aggressive-1538032894

Made me feel all warm inside. Console wars still hasn't changed.

 

[H6rdc0re]

On the PS4 you are look at a single pool of ram rather than two separate pools you see on PC. Add those numbers together on PC and they can break 5 pretty easily on nice rigs.

Heh......



The 5 is shared for CPU and GPU usage, so I wouldn't compare what a game uses on task manager in windows because it doesn't include the GPU usage. Which is just as important, and fills just as easily when you're at higher resolutions or use any effects or "move any sliders".

Edit - stallion beat me to it

PS4's APU uses hUMA which means direct access to the cache and no need to copy a shadow of the VRAM data in the main RAM thus freeing up a huge amount of that 8GB GDDR5.

 

[Lord Error]

On the PS4 you are look at a single pool of ram rather than two separate pools you see on PC. Add those numbers together on PC and they can break 5 pretty easily on nice rigs.

I'm not aware of any game yet that goes above 5 combined even on ultra settings. I think BF3 and BF4 are 4.5 or something like that, and that's the highest I've seen (and also when you run them in resolutions above 1080p, so video ram usage becomes higher). Adding some crazy mods can make it go beyond that I'm sure though.

 

[Dire]

Coding and optimizing for one set of hardware does go a long way, you know.

People forget about it when talking about PC vs Consoles.

Goes both ways. Obviously these guys are highly skilled at what they're doing, yet in high performance PC development I'd likely end up looking at somebody a bit cock-eyed if they suggested rewriting the memory allocation routines to meaningfully improve performance. It is a pro or a con that they can squeeze meaningful amounts of performance by tailoring the allocation routines? Not as obvious as it seems I would think.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Offtopic, but I just read an article on Kotaku about Tretton leaving Sony and was pretty amused when I found gaffer DocSeuss posting this:


http://kotaku.com/great-i-feel-like-his-frequently-arrogant-aggressive-1538032894

Made me feel all warm inside. Console wars still hasn't changed.

Wow

 

[NastyBook]

Seriously?

Right? What a sad existence, to be ruled by your agenda.

I'd like 30fps for SP and 60 for multiplayer myself.

That's what I was thinking myself. 60fps for multiplayer with U3's SP visuals would be super neat.

 

[Applecot]

3GB reserve is what everyone was speculating.

I thought this was more or less confirmed. While the OS in it's current form isn't using the entire 3GB they wanted to keep the memory available to expand the capabilities of the PS4.

 

[Basileus777]

I'm not aware of any game yet that goes above 5 even on ultra settings. I think BF3 and BF4 are 4.5 or something like that, and that's the highest I've seen (and also when you run them in resolutions above 1080p, so video ram usage becomes higher). Adding some crazy mods can make it go beyond that I'm sure though.

Going over 5 combined when you include vram is not quite that rare, especially at high resolutions.

 

[mjontrix]

So does this mean Uncharted PS4 is 1080p/60FPS confirmed?

Probably 4, definitely for 5 though.

 

[mephixto]

Probably? They got caught with their pants down last gen. They sure as fuck don't want it to happen again.
They will shrink it when they think it's safe to do it.

Those 3 GB are probably for OS but a big chunk goes to the video capture of PS4 caching all the captured gameplay in the RAM.

 

[SSM25]

Those 3 GB are probably for OS but a big chunk goes to the video capture of PS4 caching all the captured gameplay in the RAM.

No need to use RAM for that actually.

 

[MercuryLS]

The PS4's OS isn't even feature rich, I can't imagine why they're using 3gigs unless they're reserving that space for future features.

 

[BigTnaples]

So pumped.

 

[Wishmaster92]

Those 3 GB are probably for OS but a big chunk goes to the video capture of PS4 caching all the captured gameplay in the RAM.

Does it cache the video capturing to hdd or the 3gb ram? Because when i go to my sharing menu i have multiple 15 minute videos which i think is pretty pointless. Reduce the ram footprint for the os and make it so only 15-20 minutes save, then just rewrite that.

 

[coldfoot]

I'd be perfectly fine with uc4 doing sp and mp like Killzone. 1080p30 for sp and interpolation trick for 60fps mp

 

[dacalo]

We all know PS4 comes with 8GB GDDR5 RAM. What I don't get is, why is Sony wasting the performance of expensive GDDR5 RAM on freaking OS? They should have slapped on 4GB DDR3 RAM set aside for the OS rather than OS gobbling up precious GDDR5 RAM. I realize that would have added another $20 or so to the cost, but it just seems like an odd way to utilize the performance of GDDR5 RAM.

 

[TheD]

So many operating system architects in this thread, it is amazing! Must be another case of lazy devs.

Spoiler

/s

How can people comment saying how excessive 3GB reserved is. I'd love to hear what they would change to lower it.

SMH.

3GB is a lot of RAM.
For what the PS4 OS has, something like 400-500MB would likely be enough (that includes GUI and the like).
That leaves 2.6-5GB of RAM free.

We all know PS4 comes with 8GB DDR5 RAM. What I don't get is, why is Sony wasting the performance of expensive DDR5 RAM on freaking OS? They should have slapped on 4GB DDR3 RAM set aside for the OS rather than OS gobbling up precious DDR5 RAM. I realize that would have added another $20 or so to the cost, but it just seems like an odd way to utilize the performance of DDR5 RAM.

*GDDR5

 

[mephixto]

Does it cache the video capturing to hdd or the 3gb ram? Because when i go to my sharing menu i have multiple 15 minute videos which i think is pretty pointless. Reduce the ram footprint for the os and make it so only 15-20 minutes save, then just rewrite that.

Caching to HDD would cause a lot of problem with your game (stuttering, slowndows, etc), also those files you see on the PS4 are already compressed. The capture is raw video then compressed it to the HDD. I don't know if this is the proccess the PS4 do to capture but its the most efective to avoid perfomance problems with the console.

 

[perineumlick]

The 5GB available isn't new news. It was clarified by DF in July last year.



The confusion is probably around the difference between Direct Memory and Flexible Memory. ND were talking about how that manage RAM allocation. I'd imagie they were just refereing to the Direct Memory. That is, the chuck of GDDR5 that they have full control over.

As per the articles from July last year, there is also another section of Flexible RAM which is managed by the Linux based OS. Developers wouldn't be able to micro manage RAM allocation if this was handled by the OS.

So yeah, based on what DF said last year, and what ND are saying now, it seems like devs have access to 5GB of Direct RAM. And if no-one contradicts the DF article fro last year, they will also have access to an additional 1GB of OS managed Flexible RAM.

If that's the case, the posts last year from Thuway et al that games have 6GB to play with are accurate.

Pfft; what fun is all this logic? More fun to be had digging up old threads trying to get insiders banned.

 

[StevieP]

We all know PS4 comes with 8GB DDR5 RAM. What I don't get is, why is Sony wasting the performance of expensive DDR5 RAM on freaking OS? They should have slapped on 4GB DDR3 RAM set aside for the OS rather than OS gobbling up precious DDR5 RAM. I realize that would have added another $20 or so to the cost, but it just seems like an odd way to utilize the performance of DDR5 RAM.

1) drastically complicate the motherboard in comparison to its currently fairly simple unified design
2) take further losses than what they're currently taking, while already being in a financially precarious situation
3) greatly impact future cost reduction
4) all of the above

Take your pick

 

[Northern Lights]

They can keep saying all this tech stuff but let's keep it real.. the uncharted ps4 game won't hold a candle to uncharted 2.

 

[Wishmaster92]

Caching to HDD would cause a lot of problem with your game (stuttering, slowndows, etc), also those files you see on the PS4 are already compressed. The capture is raw video then compressed it to the HDD. I don't know if this is the proccess the PS4 do to capture but its the most efective to avoid perfomance problems with the console.

The videos are definitely compressed, and so are the screenshots when you save them (even if you use the second account trick). Makes sense though.

 

[inpHilltr8r]

iirc the Xbone is about the same in how much is reserved for the OS.

AFAIK it's exactly the same. Funny that. Strange coincidence huh?

 

[Glorified G]

Great find OP

 

[MercuryLS]

They can keep saying all this tech stuff but let's keep it real.. the uncharted ps4 game won't hold a candle to uncharted 2.

What do you mean? In terms of gameplay quality or visual impact?

 

[TheD]

Caching to HDD would cause a lot of problem with your game (stuttering, slowndows, etc), also those files you see on the PS4 are already compressed. The capture is raw video then compressed it to the HDD. I don't know if this is the proccess the PS4 do to capture but its the most efective to avoid perfomance problems with the console.

Video frames are likely already compressed by the time they are in the RAM.
Something like: Framebuffer -> encoder -> compressed frames in RAM -> HDD.

 

[mephixto]

Video frames are likely already compressed by the time they are in the RAM.
Something like: Framebuffer -> encoder -> compressed frames in RAM -> HDD.

That would work too, but doesnt encoding on the fly would tax the CPU a lot?

 

[TheD]

That would work too, but doesnt encoding on the fly would tax the CPU a lot?

It has a hardware encoder and if you stored a whole 15 mins of uncompressed 1280x720 video at 30 FPS you are looking at 75 GB of data!

 

[mephixto]

It has a hardware encoder.

Mnnnnn I forgot that, but its consuming RAM anyway,

 

[TheD]

Mnnnnn I forgot that, but its consuming RAM anyway,

Very little.
Even encoding video via software does not need large amounts of RAM.

 

[crazyprac]

What do you mean? In terms of gameplay quality or visual impact?

Obviously hes from the future and has already platinumed it...

 

[Northern Lights]

What do you mean? In terms of gameplay quality or visual impact?

Overall product uncharted 2 was the best both sp and mp. The game won't have any graphic problems but gameplay and story is gonna be a big question mark... they made uncharted 3 terrible and fired the person who did the story for past uncharteds. Shadowfall has top notch graphics and game engine compared to other engines/games but you know how that ended up with the game..

 

[Mr. Waffle]

So how would Sony go about freeing up more ram for games?

At the moment you can multitask games and apps (like netflix). It's a nice feature, but I would give it up if it meant more memory for games.

I remember something about keeping more overhead this time around. They felt they could have done more with the PS3, but didn't have the overhead. No I can't remember the source... I'm old like that.... lol

 

[Mullah88]

Overall product uncharted 2 was the best both sp and mp. The game won't have any graphic problems but gameplay and story is gonna be a big question mark... they made uncharted 3 terrible and fired the person who did the story for past uncharteds. Shadowfall has top notch graphics and game engine compared to other engines/games but you know how that ended up with the game..

Um the same people who made two are back to helm the ps4 version?...I'm pretty sure they'll tweak Emmy's story/writing. No point in trying to predict the future really