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[MosquitoSmasher]

There's just one confusing thing about all this stuff.


For example just now i was watching some direct showfloor footage of Ashen and a banner above the TV said 4K/HDR. But is that native 4K or checkerboard? They definitely do need to be more clear on that.

 

[almostjuliuscaesar]

With their wording there are many people out there who assume a 4K game on XBOX is native. I think that's what he's getting at

 

[Angel_DvA]

Devs use the power however they want. What's the issue here?

Re-read the thread.

The problem isn't how devs used the power of X, the problem is misleading Spencer/Microsoft marketing.

There's just one confusing thing about all this stuff.


For example just now i was watching some direct showfloor footage of Ashen and a banner above the TV said 4K/HDR. But is that native 4K or checkerboard? They definitely do need to be more clear on that.

Yeah this, if it's native, say Native, if it's not, say it too.

 

[Resident_UA]

This is a loaded question. If a game is outputing a 4K framebuffer it is 4K 100% of the time. Whether or not ever pixel is uniquely generated per frame is a different question.

I don't think this is unfair to developer who do hit native 4K 100% of the time, because they can simply market their game as "Native 4K" to distinguish themselves from the other methods.



How does their definision of 4K differ from anyone else's?

Well technically it's same as Sony's definition, but Sony isn't going around saying that they got True 4k and Xbox X doesn't

 

[TheSpecialOne]

There's just one confusing thing about all this stuff.


For example just now i was watching some direct showfloor footage of Ashen and a banner above the TV said 4K/HDR. But is that native 4K or checkerboard? They definitely do need to be more clear on that.

If you can't tell then does it matter? Are you counting pixels or playing games?

 

[bigbaldwolf86]

This thread has predictably enraged many a fanboy on either side of the console fence.

I'm an XBone owner, very much looking forward to the X, not a Sony fanboy.

I've read through this with my initially skeptical eyes saying things like "Phil always said Devs could do what they like, this isn't misleading at all!", but having read through this thread I was wrong.

The Xbox One X can hit native 4k on some games. We don't know how many but their first party stuff will most likely aim here.

As mentioned their policy is to allow 3rd party devs to utilise the power of the new console anyway they like, not mandating a native 4k resolution.

The OP shows a post that essentially explains what MS's description of 4k means, including dynamic resolution and checkerboard rendering. This means that when you see 4k on a box, it could use any of the above. They will likely specify whch games hit Native 4k to blow their own trumpet.

The issue people are having, and it's a valid one, is that Phil turned around and said that the X isn't competing with the PS4 Pro, because it isn't a "True" 4k machine.

Well that isn't true,if we take True to mean Native then the PS4P has several games running at True 4k, while many others use checkerboarding.

With that in mind how is the X1X different? It can also render games in native 4k and with its increased power will likely do it more often than the PS4P, but it also uses dynamic res and checkerboarding on stuff like 3rd party games. Phil was incorrect.

The marketing of X1X seems heavy on the True 4k mantra, which by itself isn't a lie, but stating it's the only True 4k console out there is.

Best post of the thread

 

[MosquitoSmasher]

If you can't tell then does it matter? Are you counting pixels or playing games?

Yes that's true man. At the end of the day it doesn't matter i guess. I have yet to properly see 4K anyway. Just wondering man, nothing more. Plus that honest marketing is just better than all the vague stuff.

At the end of the day i'm glad devs can do what they want. Can't wait for nov 7.

 

[Crayon]

People do have eyes. They will see this vast gap in power if it is anywhere to be seen. Ms should be more confident.

 

[Angel_DvA]

easy to see who's trying to mislead who...

 

[jelly]

You know it all outputs at 4K.

/Greenberg

 

[RdN]

Wait, Assassins Creed isn't hitting 2160p?

Doesn't even look that good.

 

[Justified]

There's just one confusing thing about all this stuff.


For example just now i was watching some direct showfloor footage of Ashen and a banner above the TV said 4K/HDR. But is that native 4K or checkerboard? They definitely do need to be more clear on that.

well native 4K, and checkerboard both are 2160p so your TV will display that for both

Wait, Assassins Creed isn't hitting 2160p?

Doesn't even look that good.

Checkerboard is 2160p its just a rendering technique (not an upscaling solution. Many people still dont get this)

 

[Kuosi]

Think MS only ever claimed their first party titles will be 4K, for 3rd party it's up to them to decide?

 

[nekkid]

I'd much rather this flexibility than developers handicapping themselves just to get a logo on a box.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

They are being misleading a bit, or just not as specific as Sony in this matter as shown in the infographic above.

Though, I would be almost willing to bet that what Phil meant by "True 4K machine" was not just the resolution but the assets (textures and such) to go along with it that the extra RAM allows for.

 

[Reckheim]

They are being misleading a bit, or just not as specific as Sony in this matter as shown in the infographic above.

Though, I would be almost willing to bet that what Phil meant by "True 4K machine" was not just the resolution but the assets (textures and such) to go along with it that the extra RAM allows for.

Some 3rd party developers wont bother making 4k textures just for the xboxonex.

'true 4k machine' just doesn't work, 'the better 4k machine' would have been better.

 

[Theonik]

Wait, Assassins Creed isn't hitting 2160p?

Doesn't even look that good.

If a game struggles to hit close to 4K on a PS4 Pro, how is 42% more power going to give more than 42% extra performance? Just going from a 1800p native to a 2160p native is at least 44% more pixels to render. And that's before you consider many PS4 Pro games render at half of 1800p (checkerboard)

What people can comfortably expect is 1800c games on the Pro running at 2160c on the Scorpio with maybe better textures and some enhancements. Anything more than that is asking too much.

 

[Justified]

Think MS only ever claimed their first party titles will be 4K, for 3rd party it's up to them to decide?

They did, thats not what this thread is about though (not saying you are, trying to move the goal post like some others are though)

 

[onQ123]

well native 4K, and checkerboard both are 2160p so your TV will display that for both



Checkerboard is 2160p its just a rendering technique (not an upscaling solution. Many people still dont get this)

People did a lot of damage around here when they kept saying that it was upscaling when I was trying to explain that it wasn't.

 

[SPDIF]

Wait, Assassins Creed isn't hitting 2160p?

Doesn't even look that good.

Nobody can say for sure yet.

 

[Bustanen]

If it isn't 4K don't put the fucking label on the box.

 

[Crayon]

Nobody can say for sure yet.

True. It will have to go through forensic analysis at df before we can relish the power.

 

[Sony]

It's fairly easy. Xbox One X is mentioned as a True 4K console because it has the power to run Xbox One and PS4 quality games in 4K. That has been mentioned multiple times by MS as being the goal of Scorpio: being able to run Xbox One/PS4 quality rendering in 4K native, so without any engagements to graphics quality.

Given that devs can utilize the power of Xbox One X anyway they want, MS can't promise all games run in 4k.

In essence, again, Xbox One X is designed to run PS4 and Xbone games at their graphical quality in 4k native. PS4Pro is not, it is designed with Checkerboarding PS4/Xbone quality games in 4K. That is the difference and that I why I feel the True 4K label is justified for Xbox One X.

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

Some 3rd party developers wont bother making 4k textures just for the xboxonex.

'true 4k machine' just doesn't work, 'the better 4k machine' would have been better.

I think he was trying to make something that was more capable. I remember him saying that in some interview. I think he had this idea in his head of what a true 4k machine should be able to do, like a bar or something that he wanted to cross. So I think in his head it was a "True 4k machine" because it was more capable of having a 4K experience and had to concede less.

I do agree they need to be more clear on their marketing material though.

Also, almost all games are made on PC first and are developed with very high resolution textures initially. So the textures should already be there like 95% of the time.

 

[Trup1aya]

Well technically it's same as Sony's definition, but Sony isn't going around saying that they got True 4k and Xbox X doesn't

yeah that's a cringe worthy, loaded ass Statement.

When you put all of the comments together, MS' definition of True 4K (a made up phrase) refers to their own goals- build a system that can push existing 900p xb1 games to native 4K. In that very specific proprietary definition, they have succeeded. It's also true that the Pro probably can't do this.

The comment isn't malicious or misleading... it's just dumb and irrelevant. Consumers should be more than capable of understanding what each system is capable of, dispite any of this messaging by using their eyes and actual marketing material.

 

[onQ123]

If it isn't 4K don't put the fucking label on the box.

But it is 4K it's just a more efficient way of getting to a 4K output.

 

[Iksenpets]

The specs on the thing never seemed high enough to reliably hit 4K, and given the option, most devs are going to choose to checkerboard rather than cutting back to get to actual 4K, so they can put more bells and whistles on and still call it 4K. It will probably end up pretty similar to the Pro, where other than a few showpiece games, everyone is kind of fudging 4K (though they'll be fudging it less since they're working with a lot more power on the X)

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

If a game is not True Native 4K, then they should just advertise XBoX enhanced on the box and not 4K Ultra HD, if the game is true then label it as True.

Pretty simple, hopefully they get called out.

 

[Z3M0G]

So the "true 4K" bit means nothing at all?

 

[Strootman]

You know it all outputs at 4K.

/Greenberg

 

[EvB]

But it is 4K it's just a more efficient way of getting to a 4K output.

It's not 4K, it's an efficient way of getting close to something that looks like 4K

 

[dugdug]

Feel Every Dynamically Scaled Pixel

 

[TAJ]

Gotta love these agenda threads. OP come on. LOL!

Gotta love the biggest console warriors complaining about agendas.

 

[Krayz]

If you can't tell then does it matter? Are you counting pixels or playing games?

So what's the point of touting "true 4k" over your competitor if it doesn't matter, if it's native/dynamic/checkerboard? By your statement people will see that the X is $100 more and say why should I spend the extra when I can get 4k on the pro.
Cause you know...all 4k are the same.

 

[Justified]

It's fairly easy. Xbox One X is mentioned as a True 4K console because it has the power to run Xbox One and PS4 quality games in 4K. That has been mentioned multiple times by MS as being the goal of Scorpio: being able to run Xbox One/PS4 quality rendering in 4K native, so without any engagements to graphics quality.

Given that devs can utilize the power of Xbox One X anyway they want, MS can't promise all games run in 4k.

In essence, again, Xbox One X is designed to run PS4 and Xbone games at their graphical quality in 4k native. PS4Pro is not, it is designed with Checkerboarding PS4/Xbone quality games in 4K. That is the difference and that I why I feel the True 4K label is justified for Xbox One X.

"PS4/Xbone quality games" is too subjective. Resogun is a PS4 quality game to me.

Phil knows what he is doing.

Fact is (Facts!) PS4 Pro currently has Native 4K game currently.

 

[Crayon]

Maybe the "true" in "true 4k" refers to Microsoft style truth as opposed to normal truth?

 

[Jeff Freecss]

Well, at least these first party games are in "native 4k" when they were announced on the stage:

Crackdown 3
Forza Motorsport 7
Sea of Thieves
State of Decay 2
Gears of War 4
Forza Horizon 3
Halo Wars 2
Killer Instinct
Super Lucky's Tale
Minecraft

 

[Jaguar Victory]

Marketing's gonna market. Not sure who's hurt by this. DF will be breaking all games down anyway. Looking forward to it. Destiny 2 DF threads should be a blast.

 

[vpance]

easy to see who's trying to mislead who...

Sony got scared after GG was sued.

 

[FZW]

"PS4/Xbone quality games" is too subjective. Resogun is a PS4 quality game to me.

Phil knows what he is doing.

Fact is (Facts!) PS4 Pro currently has Native 4K game currently.

Very few....

The PS3 has a few 1080p games but the majority runs at a lower resolution, would you consider that a true 1080p console?

PS4 pro Native 4k is few and far between. I doubt this will be the case with XBX

Even the PS4 has a few 900p and dynamic resolution games but it's still largely considered a true 1080p console.

 

[Justified]

Marketing's gonna market. Not sure who's hurt by this. DF will be breaking all games down anyway. Looking forward to it. Destiny 2 DF threads should be a blast.

Marketing is saying "Best place to play True 4k games"

Willfully misleading (or lying as others will put it) is saying "Only console with True 4K games" and/or "Not using techniques like the other guys"

Very few....

The PS3 has a few 1080p games but the majority runs at a lower resolution, would you consider that a true 1080p console?

PS4 pro Native 4k is few and far between. I doubt this will be the case with XBX

Even the PS4 has a few 900p and dynamic resolution games but it's still largely considered a true 1080p console.

Nothing you said is wrong (sentence 2 remains to be seen), still doesnt change the argument that the OP is putting forth

 

[Dunkley]

I mean regardless of what Phil said (I don't agree that the S is in competition with the Pro mind you, at least not without stating the X itself too is in competition with the S if we're considering everything that upscales to 4K is in competition with the S), I'm glad it's not native 4K or bust actually because down the line this gen upscaling techniques will probably become more and more relevant and given checkerboarding has done some amazing stuff on the Pro I'm glad it's included as an option to developers alongside of dynamic resolution scaling.

 

[Z O N E]

Uhhh, this was obvious from the get go...

Some developers will push textures/assets/lighting/effects so hard that native 4k will be impossible so they'll go with dynamic or checkerboard.

It's all on how developers use the power.

 

[Justified]

OP needs to add "Also not talking about developer ambitions" to the OP since people keep bringing that up, even though that not being discussed (Unless its clear goal post moving)

 

[mario_O]

Well, there you go. Expected. It was not realistic to expect all games to run at native 2160p.

 

[onQ123]

It's not 4K, it's an efficient way of getting close to something that looks like 4K

4K is a resolution & if the final frame buffer resolution is 4K it's 4K there is no way around this, just because it's not done the traditional way does not change it from being 4K.

Sorry if that's too hard for some people to understand but it's plain silly to see the frame buffer output at 4K & say that it's not 4K . call it cheap 4K or whatever it's still 4K that's the resolution .

 

[SPDIF]

True. It will have to go through forensic analysis at df before we can relish the power.

Well, yes. But I'm mainly referring to the fact that nobody connected with the game has actually come out and said that the X1X is running at a dynamic resolution.

 

[FZW]

easy to see who's trying to mislead who...

Assassin's Creed Unity and Watch Dogs pages on PSN still say "1080p HD Video Output" and even go on to say "Video output in Full HD 1080p requires 1080p native display". I find that very misleading. It's a good thing I understand marketing speak but a lot of my friends didn't and still try to convince me that those games are 1080p to this day.

 

[dragonelite]

4K is a resolution & if the final frame buffer resolution is 4K it's 4K there is no way around this, just because it's not done the traditional way does not change it from being 4K.

Sorry if that's too hard for some people to understand but it's plain silly to see the frame buffer output at 4K & say that it's not 4K . call it cheap 4K or whatever it's still 4K that's the resolution .

If you really want to get technical, native 4k means there are 3840x2160 pixels rendered
in the opaque buffer(the buffer digital foundry uses to pixelcount).

Upscaling and reconstruction technique do not render 3840x2160 pixels in the opaque buffer. Reconstruction technique render a certain amount percentage of the opaque buffer and use previous frames to fill in the skipped/missing pixels..

 

[BRocknRolla]

This thread has predictably enraged many a fanboy on either side of the console fence.

I'm an XBone owner, very much looking forward to the X, not a Sony fanboy.

I've read through this with my initially skeptical eyes saying things like "Phil always said Devs could do what they like, this isn't misleading at all!", but having read through this thread I was wrong.

The Xbox One X can hit native 4k on some games. We don't know how many but their first party stuff will most likely aim here.

As mentioned their policy is to allow 3rd party devs to utilise the power of the new console anyway they like, not mandating a native 4k resolution.

The OP shows a post that essentially explains what MS's description of 4k means, including dynamic resolution and checkerboard rendering. This means that when you see 4k on a box, it could use any of the above. They will likely specify whch games hit Native 4k to blow their own trumpet.

The issue people are having, and it's a valid one, is that Phil turned around and said that the X isn't competing with the PS4 Pro, because it isn't a "True" 4k machine.

Well that isn't true,if we take True to mean Native then the PS4P has several games running at True 4k, while many others use checkerboarding.

With that in mind how is the X1X different? It can also render games in native 4k and with its increased power will likely do it more often than the PS4P, but it also uses dynamic res and checkerboarding on stuff like 3rd party games. Phil was incorrect.

The marketing of X1X seems heavy on the True 4k mantra, which by itself isn't a lie, but stating it's the only True 4k console out there is.

No lies detected. I'd say I'm not sure why people don't seem to understand that's what's going on here... But I'm pretty sure I know why.