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[besthijacker]

I understand that. Those old games are not getting updated with new DRM either, so that still remains possible. Developers that use the new DRM encryption software are putting the games future 100% in their control, which is great to me. If devs don't give you want you want, you don't have another option to mod, you don't buy the game and the devs don't make money. IMO, this is step 1 to bringing me back into PC gaming. Responsibilities lie where they should. Dont like it. Don't buy it. LuV it!

This can't be possibly real? Right? Right??

 

[SmokedMeat]

I understand that. Those old games are not getting updated with new DRM either, so that still remains possible. Developers that use the new DRM encryption software are putting the games future 100% in their control, which is great to me. If devs don't give you want you want, you don't have another option to mod, you don't buy the game and the devs don't make money. IMO, this is step 1 to bringing me back into PC gaming. Responsibilities lie where they should. Dont like it. Don't buy it. LuV it!

Step one in bringing you back to PC gaming is developers wrestling control of games away from the consumers who purchased them?

Stick with consoles. They can control everything for you there.

 

[Bl@de]

This can't be possibly real? Right? Right??

Not sure. I hope it's sarcasm. I hope...

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

This can't be possibly real? Right? Right??

Yes, sir, it is. Opinions based on building my own PCs for over 20 years now. Your opinion may vary.

 

[MUnited83]

Indeed.

They will support games decades after their initial developers ceased to exist.
They will improve the graphical and rendering quality beyond anything the original version featured.
They will add new feature sets to whole swathes of games and allow you to play them with new input and output devices released long after the game.
They will sometimes even make games which only support 30 FPS run at 60.

And all without re-buying a "remaster". It really is terrible.

Jesus Christ man tag that shit as NSFW. I'm going to have nightmares now.

I understand that. Those old games are not getting updated with new DRM either, so that still remains possible. Developers that use the new DRM encryption software are putting the games future 100% in their control, which is great to me. If devs don't give you want you want, you don't have another option to mod, you don't buy the game and the devs don't make money. IMO, this is step 1 to bringing me back into PC gaming. Responsibilities lie where they should. Dont like it. Don't buy it. LuV it!

Oh god this one is the one that is actually horrifying

And I won't get a fair chance in most Competitive MP games, which is mostly all I care about. You're right. It is terrible. I give less than a damn about the rest of that. If you are buying games on PC that Is so broken it'll require mods and hacks in the future, stop buying those games and giving the devs a pass to release it in those states on PC.

"I don't know a single thing about competitive MP games, I don't play competitive MP games or care about them, but I will make up some bullshit about them anyways"

 

[Uzzy]

Yes, sir, it is. Opinions based on building my own PCs for over 20 years now. Your opinion may vary.

Thought you left PC gaming back in the early 2000s.

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

Thought you left PC gaming back in the early 2000s.

"Gaming". NOT "PC"s.

 

[amdb00mer]

Hey, hey buddy.

I'mma give you a hint about the PC world of gaming.

Here, in the PC land, it's assumed by "default" that a game is modable. Because when you have direct access to the file structure, it would be silly for it to not be modable. This goes back for as long as PC gaming has been around. A developer doesn't have to "state" the game has modding support (although really that would help). It's just a reality of the PC platform that modding is a thing.

Now, Microsoft (and many others) wish to take that away, because modding impairs their ability to sell you stuff after the fact, or enforce F2P style mechanics in single player games. There's no holistic "We're trying to protect the quality of gameplay" reason here. It's sacrificing everything that PC gaming has ever known in the never ending (and ultimately failing) battle against piracy on a platform that I can't imagine even has the sales numbers to justify it in the first place.

Edit: I just noticed LuvOfThaGame's entire post history since creation has essentially been running defense for anything and everything Xbox (and new age Microsoft by proxy). So I'm not really shocked at the attitude he's having towards PC gaming

Hey hey buddy, let me tell you, if a dev wanted their game modded, they would have put in offical support or given the community OK to to mod it unofficaly. If a developer does not want their game modded, that is their right.
OT, if the EFS does end up being confirmed as the cause of the performance bug, then MS will have to remove it or find a way to fix it. The one thing I can agree on across the board is that no form of DRM or protection should ever cause the gamer to not enjoy the game (the way the developer intended) or cause issues simply running the game.

 

[epmode]

Ah, the Wait For Build crowd got here very quickly.

 

[R0C]

Someone decrypted ReCore and FH3 files removing the first layer of DRM

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

Hey hey buddy, let me tell you, if a dev wanted their game modded, they would have put in offical support or given the community OK to to mod it unofficaly. If a developer does not want their game modded, that is their right.
OT, if the EFS does end up being confirmed as the cause of the performance bug, then MS will have to remove it or find a way to fix it. The one thing I can agree on across the board is that no form of DRM or protection should ever cause the gamer to not enjoy the game (the way the developer intended) or cause issues simply running the game.

Agreed 100%

 

[MUnited83]

. If a developer does not want their game modded, that is their right.

No, it isn't. It ceases to be their right the very second the game is installed on my PC.

 

[ultimota]

threads like this really make me believe in astroturfing

they also bring out the people who hate for the sake of hating though.
problem is its hard to prove when people are doing either.

on the topic of the encryption doesn't bother me but if its the cause the performance issues that is a problem.

i doubt it is though since H5 doesn't have the same problem that im aware of

 

[RionaaM]

Amazing, one more reason to use the Windows Store!

You know, this is totally not GFWL 2.0. At least GFWL titles could be modded, like (pre-Steamworks) Dark Souls or GTA IV. UWP is a step backwards.

Seriously! GFWL was already awful. This new platform is even worse. How does something like this even happen?

 

[Snkfanatic]

I understand that. Those old games are not getting updated with new DRM either, so that still remains possible. Developers that use the new DRM encryption software are putting the games future 100% in their control, which is great to me. If devs don't give you want you want, you don't have another option to mod, you don't buy the game and the devs don't make money. IMO, this is step 1 to bringing me back into PC gaming. Responsibilities lie where they should. Dont like it. Don't buy it. LuV it!

This is one of the strangest opinions I have seen on this board in my time here. So the biggest step getting you back into PC gaming (which apparently you never left since you claim you build your own computers for over 20 years) is stripping the ability for users other than yourself to mod a game?

Ok....

 

[epmode]

Hey hey buddy, let me tell you, if a dev wanted their game modded, they would have put in offical support or given the community OK to to mod it unofficaly.

Nuts to what the developer wants. Some of the best experiences you can have on PC exist because of 100% unauthorized modding.

threads like this really make me believe in astroturfing

It's definitely happening.

Virtually every thread on GAF that's negative on MS' PC push has the same people running nonstop defense. I've seen people admit that they don't even play PC games (so they're unfamiliar with the platform's historical differences) but it hasn't stopped them.

 

[TBiddy]

Virtually every thread on GAF that's negative on MS' PC push has the same people running nonstop defense. I've seen people admit that they don't even play PC games but it hasn't stopped them.

Instead of beating around the bush, what about telling the class, who you think is astroturfing? Disagreeing with you != astroturfing/shilling.

 

[amdb00mer]

No, it isn't. It ceases to be their right the very second the game is installed on my PC.

No, it is their right. Especially since the game has online features. If the game had no form of online at all, then I could see them allowing modding, but that's not the case here. I understand the whole I bought the product, it's mine to do with what I wish. I really do understand that. I root my android phone so I can run custom themes without having to using a battery hogging custom launcher. That's why people are allowed to jailbreak their phones now legally. I understand you wanting to mod your game and maybe add in some car models that are not officially available or do other things. However, since it could lead to unbalanced online play or cause issues with playing online for other users, then I have to fault on the side of the developer again with locking it down to prevent mods.

 

[LuvOfThaGame]

This is one of the strangest opinions I have seen on this board in my time here. So the biggest step getting you back into PC gaming (which apparently you never left since you claim you build your own computers for over 20 years) is stripping the ability for users other than yourself to mod a game?

Ok....

Its purely in the interest of starting with a fair and equal playing ground for myself. PC doesn't offer that for me. If it ever does, I will go back to gaming on a PC. Do people here really believe you have to game on a PC to know alot about it? PCs are used for other things pretty often.

 

[MUnited83]

No, it is their right. Especially since the game has online features. If the game had no form of online at all, then I could see them allowing modding, but that's not the case here. I understand the whole I bought the product, it's mine to do with what I wish. I really do understand that. I root my android phone so I can run custom themes without having to using a battery hogging custom launcher. That's why people are allowed to jailbreak their phones now legally. I understand you wanting to mod your game and maybe add in some car models that are not officially available or do other things. However, since it could lead to unbalanced online play or cause issues with playing online for other users, then I have to fault on the side of the developer again with locking it down to prevent mods.

You can lock down the online portion without locking everything. You can have anti-cheat solutions for your online mode.

Try again.

 

[Souless Squirrel]

No, it is their right. Especially since the game has online features. If the game had no form of online at all, then I could see them allowing modding, but that's not the case here. I understand the whole I bought the product, it's mine to do with what I wish. I really do understand that. I root my android phone so I can run custom themes without having to using a battery hogging custom launcher. That's why people are allowed to jailbreak their phones now legally. I understand you wanting to mod your game and maybe add in some car models that are not officially available or do other things. However, since it could lead to unbalanced online play or cause issues with playing online for other users, then I have to fault on the side of the developer again with locking it down to prevent mods.

L4d allows me to play multiplayer while also modding in tons of different things to change up my gameplay experience. Tons of multiplayer games even have new game modes that have rose up because of mods.

 

[WarMacheen]

Was interested in picking this up as my first Forza Horizon...skipping it. Can't support this DRM garbage

 

[Bl@de]

Its purely in the interest of starting with a fair and equal playing ground for myself. PC doesn't offer that for me. If it ever does, I will go back to gaming on a PC. Do people here really believe you have to game on a PC to know alot about it? PCs are used for other things pretty often.

I respect your opinion, but if your wish is that it becomes an closed plattform like PSN/XBL, then I really hope that you never come back to PC gaming.

 

[TBiddy]

Was interested in picking this up as my first Forza Horizon...skipping it. Can't support this DRM garbage

I agree. I was going to buy the digital version to get Play Anywhere, but I might as well save myself 20$ and get the physical now.

 

[nynt9]

L4d allows me to play multiplayer while also modding in tons of different things to change up my gameplay experience. Tons of multiplayer games even have new game modes that have rose up because of mods.

Heck, many top multiplayer games these days are either games hatvwere formerly mods or inspired by them.

CS:GO, LOL, DOTA, Overwatch (TF2), Zonbie survival (DayZ) etc.

 

[Dick Justice]

Truly shocked to see the usual suspects (at least a few of whom have previously said that they don't even primarily play games on PC) here to defend Microsoft, their sacred God that is simply doing what's best for the consumers.

Good thread for beefing up the ignore list, at least.

 

[amdb00mer]

L4d allows me to play multiplayer while also modding in tons of different things to change up my gameplay experience. Tons of multiplayer games even have new game modes that have rose up because of mods.

You proved my point. This is something those developer allows. If Playground Games and Turn10 want to offer mod support and separate servers, then they will, but until they do, the developer still has the right to lock down the game and prevent any modding that could affect other gamers.

 

[Kthulhu]

threads like this really make me believe in astroturfing

Is it always this bad in threads like this?

 

[prudislav]

Is it always this bad in threads like this?

yep , microsoft defense force is strong on gaf

lock down the game and prevent any modding that could affect other gamers.

i dont thing they lock it down because ir can affect other gamers => more probable is that it could affect their DLC, microtransaction and similar plans

 

[nynt9]

Is it always this bad in threads like this?

Go back through early UWP news threads. It gets pretty bad. There's a small amount of overblown unnecessary hate from the other end as well, but the UWP defenders way outweigh them with their intensity. The "I don't play games on a PC but let me tell you why UWP is best for PC gaming" is pretty real.

 

[-Amon-]

As always, vote with your wallet.

 

[MUnited83]

You proved my point. This is something those developer allows. If Playground Games and Turn10 want to offer mod support and separate servers, then they will, but until they do, the developer still has the right to lock down the game and prevent any modding that could affect other gamers.

You're aware that all this prevents is actual meaningful modding, yes?



I guarantee you 100% that FH3 will have cheatengine and trainers very quickly.

 

[JaggedSac]

Forza 6 Apex has the same stuttering and no encryption afaik.

Is it the same sorts of stuttering?


EFS has been around for a while now too. T'isnt new for UWP.

 

[Souless Squirrel]

You proved my point. This is something those developer allows. If Playground Games and Turn10 want to offer mod support and separate servers, then they will, but until they do, the developer still has the right to lock down the game and prevent any modding that could affect other gamers.

I was giving a rebuttal to your statement that mods ruin multiplayer games. They don't have to if the devs actually take the necessary steps to allow them.

 

[amdb00mer]

You can lock down the online portion without locking everything. You can have anti-cheat solutions for your online mode.

Try again.

You also just proved my point. If they wanted the modding at all they would have designed the game that way with ant-cheats, but they chose to lock it down. Which is again their right. Also, why should a developer have to incur the charge of maintaining a separate server for modders. They should only have to do that if they sold modding as an aspect of the game, but again that was not the case here.
We're going to have to agree to disagree.
The best thing the modding community can do is petition Playground Games and Turn10 to allow modding in some form. To be honest if they did, it could go along way in winning over PC gamers such as yourself BernardoOne and others. I think mods can be a good thing as there were some that lead to entirely new games.

 

[nynt9]

You also just proved my point. If they wanted the modding at all they would have designed the game that way with ant-cheats, but they chose to lock it down. Which is again their right. Also, why should a developer have to incur the charge of maintaining a separate server for modders. They should only have to do that if they sold modding as an aspect of the game, but again that was not the case here.
We're going to have to agree to disagree.
The best thing the modding community can do is petition Playground Games and Turn10 to allow modding in some form. To be honest if they did, it could go along way in winning over PC gamers such as yourself BernardoOne and others. I think mods can be a good thing as there were some that lead to entirely new games.

If only there was a way to let players host their own servers, like for really dedicated player servers...

 

[Kthulhu]

Go back through early UWP news threads. It gets pretty bad. There's a small amount of overblown unnecessary hate from the other end as well, but the UWP defenders way outweigh them with their intensity. The "I don't play games on a PC but let me tell you why UWP is best for PC gaming" is pretty real.

I just fail to see how DRM is beneficial to consumers in any form. It makes pretty much everything worse. Just look at DVD, HDCP, hell even Keurig has hardware DRM. I fail to see how these things are improved or how gaming will be. Steam at least has offline mode and other stuff, plus GOG exists.

 

[Knurek]

Is it always this bad in threads like this?

Usually it's way, way worse.
Although we already had UWP Defense Force calling Steam a festering pile of rootkits, something obviously impossible in the glorious land of Windows Store.

 

[Abilidebob]

You also just proved my point. If they wanted the modding at all they would have designed the game that way with ant-cheats, but they chose to lock it down. Which is again their right. Also, why should a developer have to incur the charge of maintaining a separate server for modders. They should only have to do that if they sold modding as an aspect of the game, but again that was not the case here.
We're going to have to agree to disagree.
The best thing the modding community can do is petition Playground Games and Turn10 to allow modding in some form. To be honest if they did, it could go along way in winning over PC gamers such as yourself BernardoOne and others. I think mods can be a good thing as there were some that lead to entirely new games.

Not supporting modding directly and actively trying to stop modding are two wildly different things.

 

[Kthulhu]

Usually it's way, way worse.
Although we already had UWP Defense Force calling Steam a festering pile of rootkits, something obviously impossible in the glorious land of Windows Store.

Are you kidding me?

 

[Purest 78]

I'm sure the usual suspects will be here any minute to first deny this, and then to tell us what a great new feature appx DRM-encrypted files actually are.

I mean, really, who actually needs to be able to read the files installed on their own system? Silly PC owners, just leave all that worry to Microsoft.

After reading the thread you were right some of the usual suspects have arrived.

 

[Rembrandt]

You guys should quote the usual suspects so other people can know who you're talking about.

 

[nynt9]

I just fail to see how DRM is beneficial to consumers in any form. It makes pretty much everything worse. Just look at DVD, HDCP, hell even Keurig has hardware DRM. I fail to see how these things are improved or how gaming will be. Steam at least has offline mode and other stuff, plus GOG exists.

The rationale usually doesn't go beyond "Microsoft is pushing for it, so it's right"

I've heard arguments like "win32 API is an outdated legacy API and we need to move on", "steam is a root kit", "consumers are too stupid to not install malware in the form of mods", and other forms of semi-half-truths at best. But one would think that these people who seem to be so invested in PC gaming would, you know, actually be gaming on PC.

 

[Stevey]

Helios said in either the OT or the PC performance thread that they've found the cause of the stuttering and are fixing it, I'm more inclined to believe him than some random on Reddit.

 

[Tecnniqe]

So outside of this reddit user, are there any confirmation that it is their encryption and nothing else?

DF video makes it more look like a 60fps issue causing stuttering as their 30fps was more or less all fine, even at 4k.
Might just be a bad CPU utilization port, could it not?

 

[Duxxy3]

So it's locked to their own store, no other stores. And they still have to add DRM on top of that? WTF.

 

[stranger79]

"I don't know a single thing about competitive MP games, I don't play competitive MP games or care about them, but I will make up some bullshit about them anyways"

hey, you're arguing with an ex-moderator of misterxmedia - better save the breath it's not worth bothering

 

[JaggedSac]

Helios said in either the OT or the PC performance thread that they've found the cause of the stuttering and are fixing it, I'm more inclined to believe him than some random on Reddit.

Well, we will see if the fix is removing EFS from their stuff.

 

[Andodalf]

You can lock down the online portion without locking everything. You can have anti-cheat solutions for your online mode.

Try again.

Can you? Legit question, I wouldn't think so, as there is no separate online mode, you seamlessly join other players in the open world. I'd think that'd require a re load, which would suck.

 

[Panajev2001a]

You also just proved my point. If they wanted the modding at all they would have designed the game that way with ant-cheats, but they chose to lock it down. Which is again their right. Also, why should a developer have to incur the charge of maintaining a separate server for modders. They should only have to do that if they sold modding as an aspect of the game, but again that was not the case here.
We're going to have to agree to disagree.
The best thing the modding community can do is petition Playground Games and Turn10 to allow modding in some form. To be honest if they did, it could go along way in winning over PC gamers such as yourself BernardoOne and others. I think mods can be a good thing as there were some that lead to entirely new games.

Why would a game on a locked down PC, going down this road, when I have a console? For the priviledge of buying Windows licenses, giving money to MS for the digital cut, and buying HW more often for a platform where my HW will be fully used likely only when it gets old enough to be the most widely used one?

People game on PC's BECAUSE they are open.