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FXAA creator comments on Orbis, Durango

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gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
The most useful takeaway is the insight into all the little things and possibilities low level access could buy you in terms of utilisation and efficiency.

I think the Durango analysis is less useful though. I think he does have a point about the bandwidth setup, but it won't be a pre-gcn architecture, and I'd like to hear his thoughts more on the role of a lower latency scratchpad between CPU and gpu.
 
That's great, but it's not telling us anything about how the machines will perform. Imagine if you had all the final PS3 specs (which is more than we have at this point when it comes to Orbis and Durango) except for the SPEs. No matter how big of an expert you might be, you would have to conclude that PS3 was an awfully underpowered and unbalanced machine.

The PS3 situation is not remotely comparable to the current one. Whatever the Durango's wizard jizz may be, no one is even suggesting that it provides 600+ additional programmable GFlops. There are no lessons to be learned by looking at PS3 vs 360. Those systems were so different in so many ways that it's pointless. By contrast the biggest difference between Durango and Orbis appear to be memory topology and OS design. That's all he's really commenting on.
 

Polo67

Member
My gut tells me the next Xbox will not be the GFX power house like it was in the past. It will range between the wii U and the PS4. I think MS is focusing on their strengths with the next box and maximizing on their software integration. They have nothing to gain from a super box. On the other hand Sony does because of their long list of first party devs. Sony is essentially giving them a theme park to play on .
 
Starting to feel sorry for whatever poor schmoe came up with the original concept of MLAA, power of nvidias marketing stealing it and all.
 
All the questioning of Lottes credibility is actually pretty offensive to me. He's very smart and works directly with game teams helping them with NVidia-specific stuff. Anyone that actually read the post should be pretty well aware of how little of it they understood. It means he knows more about GPUs than you.

He says at the start that he's an outsider and is just speculating based on rumored specs. But his section on the GCN ISA was amazing, and it's sad that people are reducing this post to "Sony > MS lulz!!"

If people actually think about what they post at all there has to be a point where they realize that they're questioning the credibility of someone who knows a hell of a lot more than them just because they want something to be true. That's gotta feel pretty terrible when it hits.
 

DocSeuss

Member
Where is your source for the boat level? I know they said the ship was an actual object in the environment (or something like that) -- was that not the case?

It was some ND interview I read. A cursory 5 AM google search isn't revealing anything right away, though, sorry. I remember linking it on GAF several months ago. Basically, as I remember it, people were claiming that the water in Uncharted 3 was dynamic, when in truth, it was calculated dynamically in Maya or something, then baked into the game (or whatever the technical term is). It's just an animation, really.

There was some other interesting stuff I remember reading too, like how what they did with the sand is really simple, and how the cutscenes, most of which are all pre-rendered rather than in-engine, use higher-resolution assets to create the illusion that the game's characters look better than they do in gameplay.

From a pure: "we are pushing AA/dynamic lighting/particles/X Polygons/etc," my understanding is that ND is good, but surpassed by many others. I'ma have to go refresh myself on the tech stuff on Uncharted 3, but I don't remember reading that they were doing anything particularly "how the fuck did they do that?"

I remember reading the DF article on Crysis 2, and they said they both 360 and PS3 had advantages and disadvantages(AF on PS3 and some textures, framerate on 360). I own the PS3 version, and its not like the framerate was unplayable. 25-30fps.

Carmack's made a similar statement regarding Rage. Both platforms had advantages and disadvantages. Whether or not Crytek felt as he did (360's disadvantages weren't as bad as the PS3's), I don't know. I didn't play Crysis 2 on either console.

I still dont think it holds a candle to what ND has done technically with UC3 though.

I'd be interested in seeing something that talks about the differences between the various lighting solutions, draw distances, texture quality, filtering, particles, etc used in both games.
 

DSN2K

Member
sounds quite similar to the views ive seen on here and beyond3d, ram situation is far more appealing on PS4, im still of the belief 720 running on some form of windows 8...OS requirements must be high.
 
The PS3 situation is not remotely comparable to the current one. Whatever the Durango's wizard jizz may be, no one is even suggesting that it provides 600+ additional programmable GFlops. There are no lessons to be learned by looking at PS3 vs 360. Those systems were so different in so many ways that it's pointless. By contrast the biggest difference between Durango and Orbis appear to be memory topology and OS design. That's all he's really commenting on.

The same fact remains, we can't have a rational look at either of the upcoming consoles without at the very least knowing the final specs, but even that alone might not be enough if they (or at least one of them) implores a new architectural paradigm. Theoretical FLOPS ratings are far from the only metric determining final real-life performance. For instance (and as another example of incomplete specs giving an extremely warped picture of reality), Xbox 360 without the eDRAM would be a very underwhelming piece of hardware, regardless of the great GPU.
 

Cuth

Member
My gut tells me the next Xbox will not be the GFX power house like it was in the past. It will range between the wii U and the PS4. I think MS is focusing on their strengths with the next box and maximizing on their software integration. They have nothing to gain from a super box. On the other hand Sony does because of their long list of first party devs. Sony is essentially giving them a theme park to play on .
I think both MS and Sony are aware that having on their platform the better version of most third-party games would give to their console some advantage. The idea of MS having "nothing to gain from a super box" is highly debatable IMHO.
 
The same fact remains, we can't have a rational look at either of the upcoming consoles without at the very least knowing the final specs, but even that alone might not be enough if they (or at least one of them) implores a new architectural paradigm. Theoretical FLOPS ratings are far from the only metric determining final real-life performance. For instance (and as another example of incomplete specs giving an extremely warped picture of reality), Xbox 360 without the eDRAM would be a very underwhelming piece of hardware, regardless of the great GPU.

Sure, but the embedded memory in both the 360 and Durango is there specifically to compensate for what would otherwise be unacceptably low memory bandwidth for the GPU. The 360 had a clear advantage in that case over the PS3's memory set up. There is no such disparity between Durango and Orbis, and in fact, all information points to Orbis maintaining a bandwidth advantage despite the presence of embedded memory in Durango. Barring the existence of magic, there's no harm in beginning to form opinions based on the specs we have and what we can surmise about the OS philosophies from each platform holder.
 
I thought MLAA was a very old AA method that was put on the spotlight by GG the developers of Killzone.

It not very old. It was GOW3 not Killzone that made it famous. Killzone 3 was the first Killzone to use it. GOW3 is known to have the best IQ of any game this gen. Sony's version of it, is what brought it into the spotlight as it was designed to run on the Cell's SPUs. I'm not sure if it was Sony that developed it though.
 

rdrr gnr

Member
iirc, I'm not sure the boat level had anything necessarily to do with water being dynamic. I recall a post from Arne, but I may be mistaken. But I think they were saying that the motion of the boat was dynamic because the boat was an actual object in the environment for a certain section of that level. Here: https://forums.playfire.com/general-discussion/thread/98444#post-2740107

So, who are these other console developers that are surpassing ND? I sure on a case-by-case basis other games do individual aspects better (with concessions) -- but the end product is generally in favor of ND. Crysis 2 is technically more complex than Killzone 3 -- yet I think the latter smashes the other.
 

daxter01

8/8/2010 Blackace was here
It was some ND interview I read. A cursory 5 AM google search isn't revealing anything right away, though, sorry. I remember linking it on GAF several months ago. Basically, as I remember it, people were claiming that the water in Uncharted 3 was dynamic, when in truth, it was calculated dynamically in Maya or something, then baked into the game (or whatever the technical term is). It's just an animation, really.

There was some other interesting stuff I remember reading too, like how what they did with the sand is really simple, and how the cutscenes, most of which are all pre-rendered rather than in-engine, use higher-resolution assets to create the illusion that the game's characters look better than they do in gameplay.

From a pure: "we are pushing AA/dynamic lighting/particles/X Polygons/etc," my understanding is that ND is good, but surpassed by many others. I'ma have to go refresh myself on the tech stuff on Uncharted 3, but I don't remember reading that they were doing anything particularly "how the fuck did they do that?"



Carmack's made a similar statement regarding Rage. Both platforms had advantages and disadvantages. Whether or not Crytek felt as he did (360's disadvantages weren't as bad as the PS3's), I don't know. I didn't play Crysis 2 on either console.



I'd be interested in seeing something that talks about the differences between the various lighting solutions, draw distances, texture quality, filtering, particles, etc used in both games.
water inside the ship is not dynamic but the ocean and shipyard level had dynamic water
 
It not very old. It was GOW3 not Killzone that made it famous. Killzone 3 was the first Killzone to use it. GOW3 is known to have the best IQ of any game this gen. Sony's version of it is what brought it into the spotlight as it was designed to run on the SPUs. I'm not sure if it was Sony that developed it though.

MLAA was invented by an engineer at Intel. It was adapted to the SPUs first by Pandemic for use in the Sabateur before later being used by Sony Santa Monica and Guerrilla.

water inside the ship is not dynamic but the ocean and shipyard level had dynamic water

Yeah, the cruise ship's motion was generated in real time because it was floating on a simulated ocean. The water rushing in was obviously canned in various places when it sank.
 

Eideka

Banned
On consoles ND are unrivaled in the visuals department.

Can't wait to see what they can do with powerful hardware. :)
 

Dr Dogg

Member
It was some ND interview I read. A cursory 5 AM google search isn't revealing anything right away, though, sorry. I remember linking it on GAF several months ago. Basically, as I remember it, people were claiming that the water in Uncharted 3 was dynamic, when in truth, it was calculated dynamically in Maya or something, then baked into the game (or whatever the technical term is). It's just an animation, really.

There was some other interesting stuff I remember reading too, like how what they did with the sand is really simple, and how the cutscenes, most of which are all pre-rendered rather than in-engine, use higher-resolution assets to create the illusion that the game's characters look better than they do in gameplay.

It was from one of the Tech-Dive videos they put out before the release.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qionnn7_3Q

The info is about 6 mins in.

Edit: Or if you want something a bit more indepth http://www.slideshare.net/agebreak/uncharted3-effect-technique.
 
MLAA was invented by an engineer at Intel. It was adapted to the SPUs first by Pandemic for use in the Sabateur before later being used by Sony Santa Monica and Guerrilla.

Pretty sure Saboteur came out a while after GOW3 did. I remember GOW3 was the very first game on PS3 to use it.

edit nvm. Saboteur came out in Dec 2009, while GOW3 came out 3 months later in March of 2010.
 

TheOddOne

Member
Nobody should question him, he knows his stuff. However, take the Durango comment with a grain of salt because his analysis is specifically based around the PS4 Eurogamer/DF article. He has more to work with regarding the PS4.
 
Things I would like to hear him explain why he thinks this. Wasn't there coding to the metal for the X360?

Microsoft were more resistant to very low level programming this generation compared to Sony, there's a Digital Foundry article and some decent discussion about it at DF of you want to look it up. Not that it mattered too much because their GPU was far superior. With the greater focus on taking available resources away from games (and all leaks have talked about this), the worry is that things are going to be more restrictive this time round and it's a genuine concern. Microsoft don't have a far superior GPU to rely upon this time, quite the opposite.
 
The most useful takeaway is the insight into all the little things and possibilities low level access could buy you in terms of utilisation and efficiency.

I think the Durango analysis is less useful though. I think he does have a point about the bandwidth setup, but it won't be a pre-gcn architecture, and I'd like to hear his thoughts more on the role of a lower latency scratchpad between CPU and gpu.

yeah plus as i noted, he seems to think ms wont allow any low level hardware access really crippling durango performance. there's no basis for that.

With all this explosion of "omg Orbis crushes Durango" lately, it's odd to me we havent heard any dev talk, one way or the other. We havent heard them say theyre similar (well besides lherre) nor that one or the other has any edge. And some games should be quite far into production.
 

Cuth

Member
Sure, but the embedded memory in both the 360 and Durango is there specifically to compensate for what would otherwise be unacceptably low memory bandwidth for the GPU. The 360 had a clear advantage in that case over the PS3's memory set up. There is no such disparity between Durango and Orbis, and in fact, all information points to Orbis maintaining a bandwidth advantage despite the presence of embedded memory in Durango. Barring the existence of magic, there's no harm in beginning to form opinions based on the specs we have and what we can surmise about the OS philosophies from each platform holder.
Uhm, can't we suppose the embedded memory in Durango will have associated some logic and a really high internal bandwidth?
If MS wants to offer good backward compatibility (this is not sure, of course) they should have somewhere at least 256 GB/s of bandwidth...
 
Microsoft were more resistant to very low level programming this generation compared to Sony, there's a Digital Foundry article and some decent discussion about it at DF of you want to look it up. Not that it mattered too much because their GPU was far superior. With the greater focus on taking available resources away from games (and all leaks have talked about this), the worry is that things are going to be more restrictive this time round and it's a genuine concern. Microsoft don't have a far superior GPU to rely upon this time, quite the opposite.

actually that was debunked, again pretty much by b3d posts.

Basically there was a rumor MS made devs only work in Direct X, for future backwards compatibility, but it apparently was false if not a meaningless concept entirely.

The gist of it was if you are on a console, there's no such thing as direct coding to the metal, conversely there's no way to really disallow heavy optimizing.

It seemed pretty obviously untrue to me for the simple fact we did not hear devs complaining about it, and they would have.
 
Having attended MS dev conferences last year, I'd rather say he's spot-on. The foremost bullet point they've been hammering this past year is how the exact same game code is garanteed to work without any alteration on all win8-based platforms, be they phones, computers or some future new MS platform hint hint know what I mean (yes, they were about that subtle), essentially bringing free ports to the table. That approach directly precludes a coding to metal API.
From an economical view point unifying your code is pretty smart. I mean if I'm a publisher the game/app/whatever I develop for MS works across ALL of their devices with little to no cost on my end...very smart.

In a day and age where development costs continue to rise this seems to help curtail that.
 
Uhm, can't we suppose the embedded memory in Durango will have associated some logic and a really high internal bandwidth?
If MS wants to offer good backward compatibility (this is not sure, of course) they should have somewhere at least 256 GB/s of bandwidth...

What makes you think there will be backwards compatibility? And the internal bandwidth figures for the embedded memory in the 360 were to the ROPs, but we've had indications that the way they write to memory may have been fundamentally changed to allow them to write to main memory if desired. Can't really take massive internal bandwidth for granted.
 

Binabik15

Member
Nobody should question him, he knows his stuff. However, take the Durango comment with a grain of salt because his analysis is specifically based around the PS4 Eurogamer/DF article. He has more to work with regarding the PS4.

True, it seems he doesn't know (knew?) the Durango's gpu is rumoured to be gcn2 and a lot of the nice things things he described for PS4 might be possible for Durango IF MS allows low levels access as well.

I take his post more as an assurance that the the low FLOPs numbers (if you compare them to high-end cards) rumoured for both consoles really CAN benefit from "lol console optimisation" to a high degree if the access is allowed, no matter what some self proclaimed GAF experts know from playing around on pc and old consoles. I would both laugh and cry if PS4 and maybe Durango can crush my 7870's performance. Then I'd buy more cheap games on pc and look forward to limits pushing exclusives and praise the fact that multi-plats have will have incredible lowest common denominator targets compared to current gen and Steam's "what people have in their pc" stats.

Besides that the tech talk he uses goes straight over my head into lower Earth orbit, but it was still entertaining, if only for Random123's massive meltdown/desperate trolling.

random123 when someone told Mr Lottes that he should join ND or ICE Team said:
why would he want to work for developers who make ugly games? have you ever looked at uncharted? drake runs like a stick up his butt, worst animation ever. and the cutscenes? it looks like eyes are crawling out of chloes head, talk about uncanny valley.

also any reason you only name sony first parties? is this some secret sony fanboy club?


yeah plus as i noted, he seems to think ms wont allow any low level hardware access really crippling durango performance. there's no basis for that.

With all this explosion of "omg Orbis crushes Durango" lately, it's odd to me we havent heard any dev talk, one way or the other. We havent heard them say theyre similar (well besides lherre) nor that one or the other has any edge. And some games should be quite far into production.


They're both NOT announced yet. Who would want to risk the wrath of both Sony ninjas and the Microsoft mafia?
 

EGM1966

Member
This thread contains some real gems I have to say.

As for his comments - interesting although of course possibly invalid in the end depending on the final locked and confirmed specs of each console.

I am always curious what coders could do in certain situations on PC if they had better access to the hardware and certainly on PS3 the top tier 1st party games have shown being able to use low level access produces better results (although of course using easier to learn libraries such as promoted by MS does favour your average coder although it incurs a performance penalty).

Sounds like some elements of this gen may carry forward to next in terms of MS pushing use of their libraries and Sony allowing low level hardware access.
 

herod

Member
The real reason to get excited about a PS4 is what Sony as a company does with the OS and system libraries as a platform, and what this enables 1st party studios to do, when they make PS4-only games. If PS4 has a real-time OS, with a libGCM style low level access to the GPU, then the PS4 1st party games will be years ahead of the PC simply because it opens up what is possible on the GPU.

yeah, this explains HAZE
 

Perkel

Banned
Good article.




True, it seems he doesn't know (knew?) the Durango's gpu is rumoured to be gcn2 and a lot of the nice things things he described for PS4 might be possible for Durango IF MS allows low levels access as well.

I take his post more as an assurance that the the low FLOPs numbers (if you compare them to high-end cards) rumoured for both consoles really CAN benefit from "lol console optimisation" to a high degree if the access is allowed, no matter what some self proclaimed GAF experts know from playing around on pc and old consoles. I would both laugh and cry if PS4 and maybe Durango can crush my 7870's performance. Then I'd buy more cheap games on pc and look forward to limits pushing exclusives and praise the fact that multi-plats have will have incredible lowest common denominator targets compared to current gen and Steam's "what people have in their pc" stats.

Besides that the tech talk he uses goes straight over my head into lower Earth orbit, but it was still entertaining, if only for Random123's massive meltdown/desperate trolling.







They're both NOT announced yet. Who would want to risk the wrath of both Sony ninjas and the Microsoft mafia?


"Console optimalizations" are widely thought as baking stuff by most of PC "experts". Which is true in many cases but when they see that Samaritan code was optimized to run on single 680 (from 3x680) they say "that is only normal".

Bias is still a thing and every year new wave of young uneducated kids join fanboy race to prove their only console/manufacturer is the best.

Low API doesn't mean for them anything.

yeah, this explains HAZE

HAZE wasn't first party
 

herod

Member
HAZE wasn't first party

yeah, no shit. So these benefits aren't available to third parties at all? Sounds like a great idea.

Don't kid yourselves, coding to the metal is a time & budget problem.

I find all these threads amusing when talking about FLOPS as if any developers besides a couple of blessed first party studios will get any kind of budget to get anywhere near the theoretical maximums of these systems.

as usual, the sledgehammer approach of raw power and middleware will dictate technical performance.
 

Eideka

Banned
but when they see that Samaritan code was optimized to run on single 680 (from 3x680) they say "that is only normal".

FXAA instead of 4XMSAA. Making it run on a single 680 is not really an achievement, "lol optimization" indeed. Am I supposed to be impressed ?

And for the record it was 3 GTX580s.
 

Arnie

Member
If the discrepancy between RAM is really as substantial as some are making out then I might be tempted to switch over. Saying that, the LIVE ecosystem, with all my friends, is probably of greater importance to me. It's a really tough decision that I won't be able to decide until closer to launch.
 

Erasus

Member
Ahaha, this thread and the comments on the blog... wow

Here is the guy who now works at nvidia and made FXAA. He is smart. He is saying that PS4 might have better *code to metal* properties and if its GDDR5 but less RAM vs DDR3 but more RAM, then GDDR5 is better for games.

And some go on about how Naughty Dog games doesnt look good, how he dosent know shit etc...

Never change GAF, never change.

Also lool at random123 comments on the blog, jesus

He also wrote this

PS3's GPU was not as good as the Xbox360's GPU. The PS3's vertex texture fetch was crap, the lack of unified shaders resulted in a huge amount of the GPU being idle during post processing. The 360 had the more modern GPU, memexport, unified shaders, better triangle throughput.

Does this make me a current-gen Microsoft fan boy? ;)

Happy now ragers? He is critizing the PS3 too. Even as a PC+PS3 gamer, yes the RSX seems like a shit card
 

-PXG-

Member
It really does seem like Sony is making a dev friendly system, while MS is making a system designed for media and apps

Edit

You know, all these rumors and speculation solidify MS's claim and my belief that they never really cared about gaming to begin with. Since the beginning, the Xbox brand has about taking over the living room not being the best video game company. With apps and Kinect, the 360 is virtually a media device that also plays games. Hell, logging onto xbox.com or your 360 itself, you get the impression that gaming isn't the main focal point. I see Durango taking this even further, making TV, movies, music, the web and other apps as the primary attractions and games as an afterthoug
 
Interesting, care to elaborate ?

Just making a joke. I hear all to often how their visuals are not actually impressive, but just look that way. I kind of thought good looking visuals, no matter how they are achieved was kind of the point.

It really does seem like Sony is making a dev friendly system, while MS is making a system designed for media and apps

If the rumours hold up it is looking that way...which is an interesting turn of events. My problem with the potential MS approach is it might work well in America, but might leave a lot of other countries out in the cold.
 

Cuth

Member
What makes you think there will be backwards compatibility? And the internal bandwidth figures for the embedded memory in the 360 were to the ROPs, but we've had indications that the way they write to memory may have been fundamentally changed to allow them to write to main memory if desired. Can't really take massive internal bandwidth for granted.
Yes, we can't take it for granted. It just seems more logical to me that for their next-gen hardware MS has gone from 32 GB/s to 102 GB/s (GPU - EDRAM) and from 256 GB/s to some unknown but higher number for the internal bandwidth. Maybe I'm wrong. It's just difficult to me to believe that, after the good choices they made for the 360, they'll do poor choices for their next console (lack of backward compatibility would be another one).
 

Eideka

Banned
Just making a joke. I hear all to often how their visuals are not actually impressive, but just look that way. I kind of thought good looking visuals, no matter how they are achieved was kind of the point.

Indeed what truly matters at the end of the day is the result on your screen, whether or not a game is technically impressive is irrelevant as long as it looks good.

I heard that Crysis 2 on consoles (played the 360 version a few hours before puking) pushes those machines really hard and yet I think it looks disgusting. Killzone 3 does not have HDR nor SSAO but is a notch above as far as the visuals are concerned.
 

Perkel

Banned
yeah, no shit. So these benefits aren't available to third parties at all? Sounds like a great idea.

Don't kid yourselves, coding to the metal is a time & budget problem.

I find all these threads amusing when talking about FLOPS as if any developers besides a couple of blessed first party studios will get any kind of budget to get anywhere near the theoretical maximums of these systems.

as usual, the sledgehammer approach of raw power and middleware will dictate technical performance.

What this post even mean ? We are talking here about technical capabilities of hardware and difference between design choices. And middle-ware will benefit a lot from GDDR5 even if they will not use low level API.

Low level API is key to games like GoW3 or Uncharted or Killzone2/3 and what made them.

I personally want it to have native OpenGL support. Carmack would be happy.

Also low-level API plus better hardware = overkill to competitors. I fully expect to see something amazing this E3.
 

herod

Member
What this post even mean ?

I can't make it any plainer. Theoretical performance discussion is all well and good, but not even those games you mentioned are particularly doing anything more impressive than Criterion, DICE, Rockstar, Crytek, and probably a few others I've missed who command a decent budget. I feel that 90% of this kind of hardware discussion is moot as the real-world limit is and will be budget.
 

Blinck

Member
He seems to know what he is talking about, but I think that we will just have to wait and see for ourselves.

Anyway I really dislike FXAA, trades jaggies for blurriness.
 

Durante

Member
This thread shows more clearly than any before it that the console wars have truly begun. We are already at the phase where everyone saying anything that disagrees (or even seems to disagree) with a preconceived notion about these systems needs to be attacked on all fronts.


I can't make it any plainer. Theoretical performance discussion is all well and good, but not even those games you mentioned are particularly doing anything more impressive than Criterion, DICE, Rockstar, Crytek, and probably a few others I've missed who command a decent budget. I feel that 90% of this kind of hardware discussion is moot as the real-world limit is and will be budget.
I think this kind of argument just isn't valid. You don't need a huge budget to make good use of hardware capabilities. For example, I doubt Journey had an "AAA" title's budget (even at the low end of that scale), but it made good use of the PS3 hardware. Having to deal with fewer hardware restrictions helps developers across the board, from indie to AAA, to achieve better results more easily.
 

TheOddOne

Member
It really does seem like Sony is making a dev friendly system, while MS is making a system designed for media and apps
I think the Orbis will be the most powerful, but Durango will still bring it's A game. Some comment from a former MS employee:

#1:
I love how people are referring to > 1TF as "weak". How fickle we are. When the 360 launched, a machine capable of over a teraflop would almost make it onto the top 100 supercomputer list (6 months earlier, it would have _been_ on the list).

Stop comparing these systems to high end PC GPUs that require 300 watts just to function. For one, they have different constraints and requirements. For another, it's not all about the GPU. Raw GPU flops does not tell the whole story. I guarantee you, Microsoft's next system will be able to do things your current computer does not have the resources to do, and I say that knowing some of you folks have monster PC setups. (Dunno about Sony, I know next to nothing about their system)

#2:
Don't read _too_ much into it, it's just that PCs have to be general purpose. A console can spend silicon budget on fixed function stuff that can accelerate things way beyond what a PC could accomplish. The 360, for instance, can decode 320 or so simultaneous XMA streams without involving the CPU very much at all. To do the same in software would be prohibitive. Items like that, if used well, can result in the ability to perform feats that cannot currently be done on any CPU or GPU today.

Well respected source Thuway says:

I found out the real specs, and I accepted reality. This is not a game of black and white. GAF needs to rescind this rhetoric where "X > Y or Y > X", it isn't black and white, and the paper isn't telling us why. Until an actual developer comes out and proclaims reality, you are left to your own devices.
Ding ding ding ding. Fanboys eat your heart yout.
Absolutely correct. This is a reverse situation with PS3 being Durango, and Xbox 360 being Orbis in terms of flexibility. The flip side is, Microsoft makes amazing tools, so any developer that wants to- will lead in their craft.
The extra silicon on the next Xbox will be dedicated to freeing up resources for the GPU. You can expect things like MSAA, certain situations in lighting, AO, etc. to be completely free. I've heard rumors that the machine is designed to where exploiting 100% of the hardware will be very simple. Something I have not heard on Orbis. Than again, I never heard of any such Orbis special sauce either.

Sony on the other hand is using a brute force method. I have zero idea which will win, and if any one is a dev on this board or programmer, we want to hear what you have to say.

Microsoft's specs on paper suggest a smaller profile, thinner unit, and a lighter BoM. This is certain.
There will be a shit ton of crow eaten for those of you who believe Orbis is 50% more powerful than Durango. It can't be stressed enough, FLOPs are not telling the whole story.
You have nothing to worry about. This machine was designed by the people who made Direct X. They chose hardware for very specific reasons. You will see in the few months ahead why.

AND- cut the shit that it is weaker. It is comparable, and has a different skill set. It is like asking a Japanese Chef and an Italian Chef to make a Burrito using what is in their own kitchen. It's not apples to apples.
 
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