-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
FXAA creator comments on Orbis, Durango
- Thread starter QaaQer
- Start date
- Status
citing a short tech demo with anaemic gameplay and few assets is no kind of argument at all.
It's just an example -- though that "short tech demo with anemic gameplay" just won GAF's GotY awards. I could name many more examples but I see not reason to get into a list war with you.
My argument is that a faster system makes every developer's live easier, at every budget level. That much should be self-evident.
Hey I will outright say it. If 720 games still target 720p while the PS4 targets 1080p or even the former at 1080p at 30fps and the latter at 60fps that will be a shit sandwich I'm not willing to eat.
I'll switch next-gen no problems. Not to say I will not play the exclusive games I got to have, but 3rd parties and the like I have no problems switching.
MS taking over the living room with the need of 2-3GB of cheap ass ram for OS is not something I'm willing to support beyond exclusives. We all know what helped them get to where they are this gen. Competitive HW, 3rd party support early on and decent pricing. They are removing something from this formula if they get it wrong like the FXAA creator speaks of here.
I mean can you imagine the comparisons; The 720 version runs at a solid 1280X1080p while the PS4 runs at a smooth 60fps at full 1080p.
That is going to be one easy decision every time.
And I'm not saying not to expect incredible SW from the box, but if the gap as wide as he leads on about it will be one easy choice.
velociraptor
Junior Member
ND certainly know how to produce a good looking game, but to date, no game has impressed me more than God of War 3. The IQ is stunning, there are absolutely no jaggies, and it pretty much runs at 45-60FPS.On consoles ND are unrivaled in the visuals department.
Can't wait to see what they can do with powerful hardware.
Conciliator
Banned
This feels not unlike what we got into really early in the last generation, which was the idea that the PS3 was a better investment because it's theoretically more powerful. At the end of the gen, you can look at Sony's first party titles and make a case that they look better than anything on 360, but they're definitely not leagues ahead. So, as always, I care once I see the end result. Show me the games I want to play.
velociraptor
Junior Member
I would prefer 60FPS, but 30FPS is playable provided the input lag is negligable. 1080p has to be a must IMO. 720p is nothing but a blurry mess.
But the difference in the previous generation was that PS3 was by all accounts harder to use effectively than 360. Nothing in the spec leaks so far suggests this for their successors. If anything, it would appear to be the other way around, at least slightly.
Clay Davis
Member
how likely is 1080/60 for all or most next gen titles? I can't help but think this will be limited to first party titles, third party titles won't really be aiming for that but instead going for a more stable 720/60.
that's just my opinion though, it's one based on seeing how some / most developers really struggled to get their games running at 720/30 this gen. some still haven't mastered it, through choice or wanting to keep costs down. whatever the reason, I think the same will apply next gen.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
Santa Monica Studio and GG.
velociraptor
Junior Member
It's not like the PS3 is a superior machine to the 360. I feel both consoles areextremely closely matched. PS3 has a better CPU. 360 has a better GPU. Both systems have first party games which look good. God of War 3, Uncharted 2/3, Killzone 2/3, Gears of War 3, Halo 4.
Conciliator
Banned
Cool, I hope it works for them and if it does I'll buy a PS4 when the games are there.
gundamkyoukai
Member
Yep it almost like Sony and MS both did a 180 when comes to there system design .
Still MS tools are going good so even if went that way they won't have the problems Sony had early one .
When comes to good looking games ND are good but Sony has other devs that just as good and they share tech .
Next gen can't wait to see what ND, SSM , GG and PD up to .
1st Course
Member
I might be stupid but any reason why Nvidia/AMD aren't using this magic tech in their GPUs? Seriously if we are really going to believe this Sony might as well just pull a Wii 2 and call it a day since MS secret sauce will apparently out perform whatever they have.
I really doubt you'll see much of that at all.
My impression at the moment is that Durango will need to be handled with care, or you could end up with performance that's far less than optimal. Some early games might make naive or simplistic approaches to the memory...or at least, I think that's the biggest risk for Durango games on the face of it. But even in those cases I don't think you'd see such dramatic differences as you suggest there.
plagiarize
Banned
this thread is a giant mess. there's a danger of putting too much weight on the opinion of a programmer, as if they can't be mistaken about things, or as if every person in the graphics programming field has the same opinion on these things. there is also a very real danger in disputing everything someone says because they get a couple of things wrong too.
I'm sure he's probably right when he's talking about memory bandwidth and AA techniques, for example, but that could all be invalidated if these rumours about Durango having dedicated AA hardware are true (though I'm far from convinced they are).
If he had the full specs then I'd probably accept that he knows more than me and leave it at that, but him being a good programmer doesn't make it more likely for his speculation about which graphics card Durango will have any more likely than anyone elses really, and a lot of his posted opinion hinges on that speculation.
I'd also point out that he doesn't seem to know how much RAM Windows RT uses, or indeed the full feature set of the OS. My surface currently has a bunch of applications open and its using 1.1 GB of it's 2 GBs of ram. And it HAS a desktop. I don't know what feature set Microsoft is looking to build system wide into their OS, but I can't see how the system would require more than 2GB at a complete push to achieve it. It could most likely be done within one GB. Any version of 'windows' that the next Xbox is going to run, would be drastically stripped down, and RT isn't drastically stripped down at all, and it runs comfortably within 2GB.
I did have to really laugh at the notion that Naughty Dog get 'pounded into sand' by other developers though. That was hilarious. I have no issue with whichever system ends up more powerful, so long as the price of the more capable system isn't crazy.
I'm sure he's probably right when he's talking about memory bandwidth and AA techniques, for example, but that could all be invalidated if these rumours about Durango having dedicated AA hardware are true (though I'm far from convinced they are).
If he had the full specs then I'd probably accept that he knows more than me and leave it at that, but him being a good programmer doesn't make it more likely for his speculation about which graphics card Durango will have any more likely than anyone elses really, and a lot of his posted opinion hinges on that speculation.
I'd also point out that he doesn't seem to know how much RAM Windows RT uses, or indeed the full feature set of the OS. My surface currently has a bunch of applications open and its using 1.1 GB of it's 2 GBs of ram. And it HAS a desktop. I don't know what feature set Microsoft is looking to build system wide into their OS, but I can't see how the system would require more than 2GB at a complete push to achieve it. It could most likely be done within one GB. Any version of 'windows' that the next Xbox is going to run, would be drastically stripped down, and RT isn't drastically stripped down at all, and it runs comfortably within 2GB.
I did have to really laugh at the notion that Naughty Dog get 'pounded into sand' by other developers though. That was hilarious. I have no issue with whichever system ends up more powerful, so long as the price of the more capable system isn't crazy.
Where was the sensationalist pap when Durango was to trump Orbis in specs a few months ago? This is about as close as we'll get to developer feedback on the rumored specs. If you think thats sensationalist, than so be it.
Edit: I have just heard from a person in the know "Flops don't tell the entire story." Comparing the machines is not my area of expertise. I respect Lottes, and for you to disregard his contributions, and for Rangers to say the stupid shit he did is truly an embarrassment.
Can Crusher
Banned
I think he's specialguy over there too.
What is this? lolololol, what are you trying to say with that?
Are you disputing that no rumor points to pre GCN gpu? Or that MS is just gonna install windows 8 in there and not allow coding to the metal?
Geez, I just hate when people fly by and drop lols just to make someone look bad without saying anything.
BigTnaples
Todd Howard's Secret GAF Account
Not my suggestion this is his;
Not a developer nor pretend to be one so all we have is what they have to say at this point.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
One, unlike PCs, consoles are fixed designs in which platform holders have total control over each component, how they're physically connected to each other and how they communicate on every level; things that make sense in such closed systems don't necessarily make sense in modular, multipurpose PCs. And two, Sony's and Microsoft's engineers are also involved (including the DirectX team on the Microsoft's side), and those companies own the designs, not their hardware/manufacturing partners, so AMD can't just freely use them on competing (or even their own) products, at least not right away. After the IBM's Cell/Xenon debacle, you can be certain that both Microsoft and Sony will make sure their own solutions remain theirs and theirs alone.
The same thing? Nobody in their right mind paid any attention to the rumors even then - especially then since it was too early to have any plausible information at that point.
Because drivers and all PCs are different. IF they where to put that "magic thing" into PC GPUs, then they would either have to put it in almost every gpu as an architechture change or have it be some kind of add on (like crossfire). IF they put it as an addon then comes driver and game problems. Do studios optimize for this "magic thing" in their pc games? Some do and you get crossfire profiles fast, but if ATI/Nvidia has to handle it then you may wait a long time and have issues like stuttering.
MS devs have said that all 360 not having a HDD was a problem, they wanted to use it on the devices that had it but where afraid to make it some kind of req because MS didnt. Ofc this has gone away with stuff like Halo 4.
Consoles can have that advaced costum stuff because devs know that everyone will be playing on the same box
Yup.
Offtopic: I hope you don't mind I used your quotes. Has your opinion changed much?
I'm not as bugged out about the console wars per se (I even consider observing them interesting, tech-wise). What really annoys me is people who are obviously very invested to one side or the other publicly bemoaning "OH THIS CONSOLE WAR SHEEZ GROW UP GUISE" whenever someone states an opinion they cannot accept.
Some devs might take a simple approach to memory when using deferred shading, and end up 'wasting' bandwidth and resources, but I really doubt copying a different buffer in and out of eSRAM is going to be that painful for deferred shading that they squeeze down resolution to keep them all in eSRAM at once...
I don't know as much about GPUs as he does either, so we can argue whether the above is reasonable or not vs what he's saying, but the assumption about a pre-GCN GPU is definitely not so reasonable.
Anyway, I don't see a need to rush to conclusions. We'll see in the games. As someone else correctly said, many different developers may have many different opinions about these things...sampling just a few may not give you the general picture. But the games will show trends if there are any.
Iam disputing that specialguy sounds like its in full xbot mode and doesnt allow that some knowledge person might actually know what he's talking about just because it puts the new xbox on a not so flattering position? Like most of anything win8 related frankly...
Can Crusher
Banned
That's cool and all, and special guy is in "full xbot mode", but still you aren't bringing in any points about the original blog post, his follow up comments, or specialguy's points that the original blog post is based on flawed assumptions.
The quote in the OP further confirms my suspicion that MS and Sony simply have different design philosophies for next generation.
MS is looking to deliver a multimedia box that leverages the Windows 8, DirectX, and Xbox Live brands into a single marketing push. They're aware that more and more consumers are forgoing desktops and even laptops in favor of smartphones and tablets. A big screen alternative is still doing to be desired, and they want the next Xbox to be it. This is them going after Apple TV, not Playstation.
Wonder why the Durango needs so much memory? Consider a system that needs to seamlessly jump between a game, your friends list, the online marketplace, DVR functionality, your email, your social media feeds, etc. All of that at 1080p for everything except (maybe) games. The system is being built to do what people do with their smartphones and tablets, leap from app to app without even thinking about closing apps behind them. Most tablets and phones hit a memory wall when doing that fairly early and that is with far less demanding processes. MS doesn't want their system to hit that wall.
Sony on the other hand is, effectively, looking to build a state of the art graphics card in a box, with enough of a front end CPU, etc. to make access quick and easy. Clean design, as close to the metal development as possible, tons of speed and horsepower. This system is focused on games and by a wide margin.
I find this amusing because Sony is the media company here. They're the ones you'd expect to go after Apple for being the all in one living room box. In fact, they've pushed that mantra more than anyone else with both the PS2 and PS3 via DVD and Blu-Ray respectively. They were the original "home multimedia box" marketers, now they seem to be shrinking back from that and instead want to offer a much more focused product.
It'll be interesting to see how it turns out. I'm betting it ends up being a Gamecube (Durango) v. Xbox (Orbis) divide, but one where the Durango is the baseline for game design. Orbis games will get a modest bump in performance and first party games will have a clear edge, but the Durango will still turn out very comparable titles and the game experiences will be 100% in tact across the two platforms (while also significantly raising the bar on what's done with high end PC hardware).
MS is looking to deliver a multimedia box that leverages the Windows 8, DirectX, and Xbox Live brands into a single marketing push. They're aware that more and more consumers are forgoing desktops and even laptops in favor of smartphones and tablets. A big screen alternative is still doing to be desired, and they want the next Xbox to be it. This is them going after Apple TV, not Playstation.
Wonder why the Durango needs so much memory? Consider a system that needs to seamlessly jump between a game, your friends list, the online marketplace, DVR functionality, your email, your social media feeds, etc. All of that at 1080p for everything except (maybe) games. The system is being built to do what people do with their smartphones and tablets, leap from app to app without even thinking about closing apps behind them. Most tablets and phones hit a memory wall when doing that fairly early and that is with far less demanding processes. MS doesn't want their system to hit that wall.
Sony on the other hand is, effectively, looking to build a state of the art graphics card in a box, with enough of a front end CPU, etc. to make access quick and easy. Clean design, as close to the metal development as possible, tons of speed and horsepower. This system is focused on games and by a wide margin.
I find this amusing because Sony is the media company here. They're the ones you'd expect to go after Apple for being the all in one living room box. In fact, they've pushed that mantra more than anyone else with both the PS2 and PS3 via DVD and Blu-Ray respectively. They were the original "home multimedia box" marketers, now they seem to be shrinking back from that and instead want to offer a much more focused product.
It'll be interesting to see how it turns out. I'm betting it ends up being a Gamecube (Durango) v. Xbox (Orbis) divide, but one where the Durango is the baseline for game design. Orbis games will get a modest bump in performance and first party games will have a clear edge, but the Durango will still turn out very comparable titles and the game experiences will be 100% in tact across the two platforms (while also significantly raising the bar on what's done with high end PC hardware).
But Lottes' comments don't mean much since it's off the rumors. If he had a devkit, then people should care. But he doesn't, and he made some stuff up that aren't even in the rumors.
Possibly because they are under very strict NDAs? And even hinting about next-gen consoles is a huge no-no? Also, a lot of devs probably don't have devkits - they are just using a targeted spec and emulating it. And the ones that do have kits, are most likely 1st party, or important 3rd party but they only have one of the two, so they can't really compare. And on top of all that, the devkits aren't finalized yet either.
It sounds more and more like there's a chance of a real performance difference in terms of games this time around. Its a situation we haven't been in. . . ever? We've had a lack of parity before, but never without a dominate market negating any advantage. Sony and MS are pretty much going in on equal footing.
Do Western third parties lead on Durango? Give Orbis a few bells and whistles at the risk of being dwarfed by Sony first party? Do Japan and Euro develop for Orbis and down port to Durango? If Durango is windows 8, and Steambox is linux, what happens with PC gaming? And yeah, its all rumors and speculation now, but that's the fun.
Still don't think MS will settle for a DDR3 vs GDDR5 handicap, not unless they're fully committed to going after the casual/living room instead of core gaming. I don't see how any special sauce would make up for that.
Do Western third parties lead on Durango? Give Orbis a few bells and whistles at the risk of being dwarfed by Sony first party? Do Japan and Euro develop for Orbis and down port to Durango? If Durango is windows 8, and Steambox is linux, what happens with PC gaming? And yeah, its all rumors and speculation now, but that's the fun.
Still don't think MS will settle for a DDR3 vs GDDR5 handicap, not unless they're fully committed to going after the casual/living room instead of core gaming. I don't see how any special sauce would make up for that.
Third parties are already dwarfed by Sony's first party, God of War Ascension looks laughably beyond anything any third party has shipped. They don't seem to care at all, so I don't think that'll change, even if the gap is a little larger.
EDIT: Halo 4 is similarly outclassing that first party's third parties. I didn't mean to suggest Sony was in any way unique in that situation.
Wait till your balls do, then you'll be excited all the time.
The rumors are pretty much reality. People need to get over dreaming about GTX 680s and Flip Flops.
Can Crusher
Banned
Rumors about a PRe GCN gpu and Windows 8 being installed in the box and not allowing for coding to the metal is true?
Man you don't make any sense.
Max Payne 3 looks better than all those games.
Because he is a fake.
- Status