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[Ploid 3.0]

That's what was said back in the PS2 to PS3 transition. Brand loyalty doesn't always win out. 3 of my most loyal 360 friend in mid Michigan have sense and were turned off by not only the price but the way MSFT has handled things. That and PS4 has handled most of their cards really well especially when it comes to games. I'm always curious to ask some semi casual gamer friends about this. You get all types.

Also PS4 cost friggin $100 less. This is a crazy situation. Imagine the WII costing the same price as xbox 360. Imagine a Wii 1.5 costing more than xbox 360, something that's not quite 360 power but a good deal better than wii.

 

[coldone]

This was the state of play with poor porting near start of last gen:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-360-versus-playstation-3-graphics-comparison/1100-6162742/

Not sure the differences are as pronounced as they are now TBH.

Problem is.. Xbone and PS4 are quite similar in architecture. If you look at Xbone architecture it has GPU with 12 Compute Units. All the games that have come out so far are matching 7790@850 Mhz benchmarks. I don't think magically Xbone will be able to do match PS4 that has a GPU with 18 Compute units.

7870, 7790 are 3 year old GPUs and almost all the engines know what their capabilities are.

 

[alr1ght]

To be fair, they all look like crap.

Really, IW, it's time for a new engine.

I know. Those are from COD4, yet they could pass for COD 15 or whatever they're on now. Sad.

 

[MrDaravon]

You are discounting, as Gaz put it, that gamers on this gen are online constantly and have "layed down roots." I have been hearing it in party chats while playing GTA V lately. Most don't even know about NeoGAF, resolution arguments, etc. They just don't care..they have a tight knit group of friends who have gamed together for a long time. They don't want to lose that and honestly, who could blame them?

I agree with your sentiment, but with there being no backwards compatibility money speaks volumes. Virtually every person I knew played almost exclusively on 360 this gen; out of my most active group of about 15 friends quite literally 12 of them never owned a PS3. Except for two people buying both every single other person in that group of 15 is getting a PS4 over a Xbox One. There's been enough mainstream attention back with the DRM stuff that's in memory and there's some awareness of that, no one gives a shit about Kinect, and it's $100 cheaper. If you can't play your current games on it and everyone's starting fresh there's no reason not to get the one that's $100 cheaper unless you have insane loyalty to an exclusive one one or the other which none of us have. We all migrated from PS2s to 360s because it was cheaper, they had their online shit together, and Halo. This time Halo 4 utterly killed the series for us and there's no other 1st party game loyalty that we have on either platform, the PS4 is cheaper, and all things are (at least relatively) equal online-wise.

I think people are grossly underestimating how much the $100 difference makes. If one console was launching noticeably before the other it'd be a different story, but a week or two apart is negligible, and with there being no tangible carryover game-wise on either platform outside of achievements/trophies and friendlists and everyone's starting fresh people are going to take the cheaper option. Especially going into the holiday season; having worked retail, if a kid asks for the new Xbox but the parent sees the PS4 for $100 less, they will settle for that a shockingly large amount of the time. There's always going to be people who are super into their achievements/trophies and will carry that forward no matter the cost, but a lot of those people are already the people who are aware of all of this stuff.

Casuals may not care or know about resolution or which system is more powerful, but with no BC they are going to care about saving $100 to play the new CoD or Madden.

 

[todd360]

Wait so your telling me that I can spend $100 dollars more for a lower resolution version of collar duty? Where do I throw my money?

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Americans are loyal to... the lowest price.

I think they're loyal to their friends lists as well. That's one variable we haven't really seen in past console launches. How much of an effect it will have we have to wait and see

 

[travisbickle]

You have to understand that this is the first transition from an online heavy gen to the next. These gamers have spent a shit ton of time building up their group of friends, achievements, etc that them switching over to PS4 isn't even on their radar. The controller isn't a drastic change at all.

Of course individuals can be swayed one way or another with temptations of "friends lists" and "achievements" but we are talking about multi-million selling games consoles, a platinum from Halo 3 isn't going to stop the majority of buyers choosing the cheaper and more powerful console.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

That transition was a different beast; online play wasn't as prevalent for one thing. The PS3 also launched a whole year later; people just got tired of waiting and MS made out big because of it.

"This time it's gonna be different" isn't really a good way to make a case. I could go xbox right now and message everyone on my list tell them I'm getting a PS4 here's my username add me.

You're overthinking it, nobody signed a contract here.

 

[ethomaz]

Seems so quiet here without any big leak... I get used to the last days

 

[AbsurdG3nius]

I am that guy; I have tried to talk about this with my group of friends on 360 and I am usually met with crickets and the random "I don't care about 1080p, etc" I have floated the idea to this group of guys, who are my close friends, and it hasn't gotten through to them at all. They are not hard core gamers and they love what they have now, and MS is telling them they get to basically keep everything the way it is, with added features.

Fair. You and I are the same guy in different boats then. My crew bought 360s 'cause that's what they played when they came over to my place years ago, and now they're all asking "what should I buy now?" I'll get the X1 next year if I don't hold on to my day one pre-order, but everyone in my group's got PS4 pre-orders for launch day.

 

[Marleyman]

599 USD had a big part or else we wouldn't have seen Sony surpass MSFT in WW sales. Brand loyalty is one thing but I think Sony at least won on the games as anyone could probably see over the last few years.

That price definitely had a huge part in how things went, no doubt. This is off topic, but I always hear about the last few years and how Sony blew MS out of the water with their exclusives. That may be the case, but MS built something this gen with the COD, Madden, Halo and Gears crowd that Sony couldn't overcome, no matter the quality of exclusives.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

The ps3 came out a year after the ps3 though, which gave them a stronghold on multiplatform games. Not to mention the PS3 was insanely overpriced at the time, with very few launch games of any worth ( Lair anybody? ). But to the credit of Sony, they really got their shit together after a horrible launch and the hacking incident, to the point where they were able to do very well in sales and make PS+ awesome. The fact that MSFT is stumbling out of the gate will only benefit Xbox One owners in the long run, it will force them to make changes and fix mistakes. Who knows, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a Xbox One in 2 years that has a hardware upgrade. Just speaking from personal experience, I have a large group of friends who are 360 owners, not one of them is switching over to the PS4 and all of them are getting Xbox One day one. These are hardcore gamers mind you, people who play all different types of games. We don't care about the resolution, we care about XBL as a service and community and we care more about MSFT's exclusives. You can argue back and forth about which console is better, but in the end its all about preference. The only reason I think that Sony will destroy MSFT at first in sales is due to the price point and nothing else. Just look at the lineup of games in the next 12 months, Xbox One has some incredible games coming.

I think this kind of gamer is more in the minority in the big picture. Price and games will always win.

I have no problem refuting your point just on those 2 principals alone. Especially when it comes to people who don't care about the things we're discussing here. I will always point them to the best console with the best games. I will also inform them of the benefits of one such as XBL's track record with stability and PSN's Plus track record but now I think we can throw in technical things like 100 dollars cheaper and much more powerful.

They don't care but would be beneficial to hear these things. Who doesn't want to experience their favorite games at their best? That's why I've been recommending multiplats to my friends who have 360. If it's negligible then I tell them to use their mind and just buy whatever. It's not something which bothers me and I lose sleep over.

That price definitely had a huge part in how things went, no doubt. This is off topic, but I always hear about the last few years and how Sony blew MS out of the water with their exclusives. That may be the case, but MS built something this gen with the COD, Madden, Halo and Gears crowd that Sony couldn't overcome, no matter the quality of exclusives.

They won the core years ago and put it on cruise control with Kinect. And they've have price on their side. I don't see that happening again but I'm kind of agreeing with you but going about it differently.

 

[Micromegas]

50%.........oh please come on now this is not a difference like the SNES vs Sega genesis or PS2 VS original XBOX. That was a Huge power difference and it showed with little effort. multi platform games between those console looked and played so different you wouldn't think it was the same game.

The difference in Battlefield 4 on PS4 and X1 is not the same as Splinter Cell on XBOX origina VS PS2 or Street fighter 2 on SNES vs Sega genesis. COD Ghost runs at 60fps on both but one is in 720p and the other at 1080p everything else will be the same in the final release. This is just over hype fanboy B.S. and I thought the 360 vs the PS3 back in the day was bad......nothing compared to this. smh

Just quoting this because there is a lot of truth here. The difference aren't this drastic, e.g., Xbox vs. PS2, though I think they will be greater than the differences between 360 and PS3 multi platform SKUS by and it won't be hard to see the difference... and I think that gulf will wider as generation progresses, but I don't think it will ever be as bad as PS2 vs. Xbox.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

The ps3 came out a year after the ps3 though, which gave them a stronghold on multiplatform games. Not to mention the PS3 was insanely overpriced at the time, with very few launch games of any worth ( Lair anybody? ). But to the credit of Sony, they really got their shit together after a horrible launch and the hacking incident, to the point where they were able to do very well in sales and make PS+ awesome. The fact that MSFT is stumbling out of the gate will only benefit Xbox One owners in the long run, it will force them to make changes and fix mistakes. Who knows, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a Xbox One in 2 years that has a hardware upgrade. Just speaking from personal experience, I have a large group of friends who are 360 owners, not one of them is switching over to the PS4 and all of them are getting Xbox One day one. These are hardcore gamers mind you, people who play all different types of games. We don't care about the resolution, we care about XBL as a service and community and we care more about MSFT's exclusives. You can argue back and forth about which console is better, but in the end its all about preference. The only reason I think that Sony will destroy MSFT at first in sales is due to the price point and nothing else. Just look at the lineup of games in the next 12 months, Xbox One has some incredible games coming.

This belongs to Sony. You got it twisted, however I agree with the rest of your post. I don't like the Xbox though having one because Microsoft is a huge rip off... But I do understand that the experience is what keeps people at bay with Xbox. They don't care about all that extra stuff or lack of. Game wise however especially in variety, concept, risk, presentation, etc.... That's all Sony imo

 

[bigboss370]

are any of the big gaming sites covering this?

if not, general audience won't know, won't care.

 

[Bossofman]

This is the "huge" difference some of you are talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_gATFCmb6k

When he's zoomed in, you can tell the difference. When in normal view, The difference is extremely hard to see.

I waited all gen to get a PS3, finally getting the GTA5 one recently, I would have jumped in 2006, as I was just waiting to see all that Cell Power resulting in better Multi Platform comparisons, it didn't have to be huge, even less then this apparent difference between PS4 and XBO would have sold me, well we know how that worked out, I couldn't justify one for them, as they mostly were worse and the box cost more.

 

[Bgamer90]

This was the state of play with poor porting near start of last gen:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/xbox-360-versus-playstation-3-graphics-comparison/1100-6162742/

Not sure the differences are as pronounced as they are now TBH.

Hard to say (the bold) since we are currently playing games that look much better now.

I couldn't see the pics in that link you posted ("mouse over for PS3" didn't work for me) but I'm pretty sure that if I did, the differences would be minimal to me simply because none of those games look good to me anymore.

 

[Marleyman]

Fair. You and I are the same guy in different boats then. My crew bought 360s 'cause that's what they played when they came over to my place years ago, and now they're all asking "what should I buy now?" I'll get the X1 next year if I don't hold on to my day one pre-order, but everyone in my group's got PS4 pre-orders for launch day.

Yeah, a bunch of my buddies all got a 360 because I told them about it and waiting for Sony to get their system out was not worth the wait. I have mentioned it before but I know I will be one of the few of my close friends who game that will have a PS4; just not this year.

 

[borghe]

I think they're loyal to their friends lists as well.

MySpace, Friendster, AIM, ICQ, etc all say high. Out of all my friends 360 was the dominant platform. Guess how many are picking up XBONE? 0. That's not a knock on the system. Just pointing out that people change social platforms many times over the course of 5-10 years.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

You are missing the point here; these gamers that I described don't care about the price tag..they want to game with the same controller layout, same friends lists, etc. We will obviously have to wait for numbers to come in over time but I just feel that Xbox is still going to have the majority of COD players when it comes to MP.

Yes most of them will stay with their familiar brand. But those relative few who migrate can make a huge difference. One million migrating from XB1 to PS4 is = to a 2million swing

MySpace, Friendster, AIM, ICQ, etc all say high. Out of all my friends 360 was the dominant platform. Guess how many are picking up XBONE? 0. That's not a knock on the system. Just pointing out that people change social platforms many times over the course of 5-10 years.

I'm not doubting people won't switch. I'm just saying it's a variable that didn't exist in the past. And it can also be detrimental to MS if those same groups of friends begin to migrate together.

 

[ChiliManiac]

are any of the big gaming sites covering this?

if not, general audience won't know, won't care.

Yup...lol http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10...n-ps4-upscaled-720p-on-xbox-one#disqus_thread

 

[Asherdude]

Also PS4 cost friggin $100 less. This is a crazy situation. Imagine the WII costing the same price as xbox 360. Imagine a Wii 1.5 costing more than xbox 360, something that's not quite 360 power but a good deal better than wii.

In my eyes, it's like Nintendo trying to sell the Wii U for $100 more than the 360 because the Wii Pad is soooo cool.

 

[Gaz_RB]

I agree with your sentiment, but with there being no backwards compatibility money speaks volumes. Virtually every person I knew played almost exclusively on 360 this gen; out of my most active group of about 15 friends quite literally 12 of them never owned a PS3. Except for two people buying both every single other person in that group of 15 is getting a PS4 over a Xbox One. There's been enough mainstream attention back with the DRM stuff that's in memory and there's some awareness of that, no one gives a shit about Kinect, and it's $100 cheaper. If you can't play your current games on it and everyone's starting fresh there's no reason not to get the one that's $100 cheaper unless you have insane loyalty to an exclusive one one or the other which none of us have. We all migrated from PS2s to 360s because it was cheaper, they had their online shit together, and Halo. This time Halo 4 utterly killed the series for us and there's no other 1st party game loyalty that we have on either platform, the PS4 is cheaper, and all things are (at least relatively) equal online-wise.

You know, I thought the same exact thing "There's no way you guys actually want to pay $100 dollars more for a console that isn't on par graphically and comes with this Kinect you don't care about."

It's hard to convince some people. Most people aren't as plugged in to gaming culture as most of us are and don't really care.
Ultimately though, we can speculate all we want. Some will say next gen will be a fresh slate and people will choose the cheaper/more powerful console and some will say that there will be some brand recognition involved and it won't be such a landslide. It is hard to tell how it will turn out this holiday.

 

[Flo_Evans]

Most of the super hardcore people I know that game a lot online have both systems. How many 360 owners even have gold? I thought it was less than 50%.

I don't think you can totally discount some people going with what they know but historically brand loyalty hasn't been much of a factor. Considering no BC with either system a clean break seems more likely.

 

[travisbickle]

That price definitely had a huge part in how things went, no doubt. This is off topic, but I always hear about the last few years and how Sony blew MS out of the water with their exclusives. That may be the case, but MS built something this gen with the COD, Madden, Halo and Gears crowd that Sony couldn't overcome, no matter the quality of exclusives.

Sales of the consoles are equal, sales of multi-platform games are near equal, the assets of this generation are shared. It's surreal to believe somehow MS has come out on top in creating a "gamers haven" that their consumers can't live without. The PS2 was that haven with sales 10 times above its competitors, the 360 is not.

 

[Marleyman]

They won the core years ago and put it on cruise control with Kinect. And they've have price on their side. I don't see that happening again but I'm kind of agreeing with you but going about it differently.

They kept feeding that group; you are discounting that for some reason. Exclusive DLC was a huge boon for 360 gamers. Kinect didn't even register with this group of players, at least the ones I know. They were hooked and as long as the multi plats kept coming they were content. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, for sure.

 

[ZeroAlpha]

Im honestly curious how the XO version is going to compare to the WIIU version, i can bet the WiiU version will run at 720p also since almost all ports have been lately.

I guess there could be effects and texture quality differences i would expect them to but now i dont want to assume anything, what would it say if the WiiU version is comparable to the XO version?

 

[FuturusX]

I don't know... some of these posts here seem to suggest otherwise.



Never said that. It will play a factor in what system a person gets a multiplatform game for. All I'm saying is that the same won't be true for many people. There are many other factors that play a role too in multiplatform game buying decisions -- not just which version looks better.



About 1080p games? I would obviously prefer 1080p over 720p but if I see an interesting game that's 720p then I'm not going to dismiss it.

And to be honest, I was honestly expecting many games in this upcoming gen to be 720p at 60 FPS after all of the sub-HD games we got during the current "HD" gen. Said it here on these forums before both of the consoles were revealed.

So, my expectations are being met to be honest. Heck, if 900p at 60 FPS becomes the standard then that would actually exceed my expectations for next gen games. I know many here expected more though and that's perfectly fine/understandable.

Again obvious sentiments. The fact that some people won't care and many factors will influence their decisions is hardly a news flash. The real question is - Will the perceived power differential, evidenced by 720p multiplats and the more expensive upfront cost be a turn off for the masses. Will it universally matter is the point not that some or a few will not care. You can bet MS is debating that internally right now and developing approaches should that happen. (Price cut).


Oh and 900p 60fps -- I see a PS4 in your future

 

[Entrecôte]

Hard to say (the bold) since we are currently playing games that look much better now.

I couldn't see the pics in that link you posted ("mouse over for PS3" didn't work for me) but I'm pretty sure that if I did, the differences would be minimal to me simply because none of those games look good to me anymore.

Yeah seems with the site overhaul they lost the transition images. The descriptions are still there though. Lens of Truth probably has all those comparisons somewhere but anyway I am sure we remember most of the big ones.

 

[KoopaTheCasual]

I think people are overestimating the size of this group that is really attached to the Microsoft ecosystem and score. There are multiple layers to the gaming realm. You have your hardest of enthusiasts, who find gaming as a passion, and your hardcore, who still browse gaming news. After this point it gets incredibly murky. There is no archetype for the standard "casual". Trying to say the "casual audience" will be rooted to their gamer tag is odd, because that ignores the vast number of people, who either bought systems and never played online (which is still in the majority), who buys maybe 3 games a year max, or who has never even owned a system and is just entering the market. This situation is soooo much more complex than anyone in this conversation is making it out to be. No amount of anecdotal evidence from an online enthusiast community can do this scenario justice.

I just think it's weird how we're trying to paint this vast picture with butterfly kisses. There has never been a situation at all similar to this one, so whatever happens will be a great lesson for the history books.

 

[bishoptl]

Seems so quiet here without any big leak... I get used to the last days

Assassin's Creed 4 is on deck.

 

[Marleyman]

Sales of the consoles are equal, sales of multi-platform games are near equal, the assets of this generation are shared. It's surreal to believe somehow MS has come out on top in creating a "gamers haven" that their consumers can't live without. The PS2 was that haven with sales 10 times above its competitors, the 360 is not.

They aren't equal though; MS had more online players for most multi plats this gen. You are discounting the effect of the first console generation with online being such a heavy focus.

 

[Hyun Sai]

are any of the big gaming sites covering this?

if not, general audience won't know, won't care.

http://www.jeuxvideo.com/news/2013/00068789-call-of-duty-ghosts-1080p-sur-ps4-720p-sur-xbox-one.htm

Biggest France gaming site covered it.

 

[Syphon Filter]

Sales of the consoles are equal, sales of multi-platform games are near equal, the assets of this generation are shared. It's surreal to believe somehow MS has come out on top in creating a "gamers haven" that their consumers can't live without. The PS2 was that haven with sales 10 times above its competitors, the 360 is not.

I would say 360 was "the" console of last gen like ps2 was last gen.

 

[FuturusX]

Assassin's Creed 4 is on deck.

Multiplat heaven...the gates are open.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

Sales of the consoles are equal, sales of multi-platform games are near equal, the assets of this generation are shared. It's surreal to believe somehow MS has come out on top in creating a "gamers haven" that their consumers can't live without. The PS2 was that haven with sales 10 times above its competitors, the 360 is not.

I thought the attach rate for the 360 was much higher since most people who owned both consoles used the 360 for multi platform games

 

[ProcrasDANation]

It absolutely astounds me that people are doing these mental gymnastics before they have even made a purchase. If you really are a fan of Xbox and really want to buy into that ecosystem (which if you are arguing that 720p is better than 1080p then it's already sold), why would you not be demanding more from that platform?

Do not let Microsoft get away with giving you a subpar product at a premium, make them earn your cash.

 

[alr1ght]

Yup...lol http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/10...n-ps4-upscaled-720p-on-xbox-one#disqus_thread

I don't want to read the comments, but I want to read the comments...

 

[rdrr gnr]

Price is the only real disparity. However, what is $100 compared to what I'm going to pay purchasing the Xbone and PS4 with games? Price can swing 50/50 for casuals. 50% that a casual will go towards the system eco-system they're used playing on. 50% they go in the direction of the lesser price. Not sure what I can say on power since I'll eventually have both systems but in my opinion the games I want to play on that particular system will trump power if I had to make a choice. What need do I have for the PS4's power if the game(s) I really want to play are on another system?

The point I'm trying to make is that early into a new generation one buys (i.e. takes into consideration when purchasing) a console on very real, immediate factors (price, power, availability). These metrics are concrete in that they exist outside of some subjective affinity. But I can also understand that people buy a console based on the promise of interesting software years down the line (MSFT's history late gen is abysmal) because launch software is rather lackluster. No one would look at you weird for buying a platform later into its life cycle if the software library was appealing. But people have a natural tendency or need to have their attitudes align with their behaviors -- and when they don't -- we do lots of odd and occasionally unflattering things to reconcile this misalignment. Chances are if you and your friends could initially commit to switching platforms: controller ergonomics become preference, the games you are interested in are the games that are available to you, you become familiar with a foreign ecosystem, and what reservations you had before become the differences you embrace now. This position doesn't ultimately undermine the importance of software (which approaches 100% as time goes on) but it does contextualize it.

 

[deranged_666]

are any of the big gaming sites covering this?

if not, general audience won't know, won't care.

Only IGN, Kotaku, Joystiq, The Verge and Ars Technica. That I know of, anyway.

 

[Bossofman]

I will say pricing something right can do wonders, IF MS drops the Kinect and can get out a $299 XBO soon, they will kill the PS4

 

[chubigans]

Somethin' I cooked up. Let me know if it needs correcting.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

They aren't equal though; MS had more online players for most multi plats this gen. You are discounting the effect of the first console generation with online being such a heavy focus.

Imagine if some guy said this. "I don't wanna spend a bunch of time sending out of friend requests again or setting up a profile or uploading pics so I'm gonna stay on myspace for the rest of my life."

You really think a friends list and some achievements (how many people care about them is a big question mark) is going to somehow lock people into a brand forever?

 

[Gaz_RB]

Sales of the consoles are equal, sales of multi-platform games are near equal, the assets of this generation are shared. It's surreal to believe somehow MS has come out on top in creating a "gamers haven" that their consumers can't live without. The PS2 was that haven with sales 10 times above its competitors, the 360 is not.

No one's saying that the Xbox 360 created a "gamer haven" that is any more powerful than Playstation 3's "gamer haven". The point is that both have gamers who built an identity and a community connection to each system and it's online functionality that just might weigh in to next gen, making it not as comparable to past gens.

Assassin's Creed 4 is on deck.

What I've been expecting. XB1 version is looking awfully absent/mysterious

Somethin' I cooked up. Let me know if it needs correcting.

You made this? Looks good.

 

[Sword Of Doom]

I will say pricing something right can do wonders, IF MS drops the Kinect and can get out a $299 XBO soon, they will kill the PS4

Of course but that doesn't just magically happen. MS can't just decide to drop the price by $200 and drop the kinect

 

[ProcrasDANation]

Somethin' I cooked up. Let me know if it needs correcting.

Very telling, nice work.

 

[TAJ]

Don't make me bring the amazon best seller list. ;p

Hmm... Four PS4 games ahead of the top Bone game. Looking pretty grim for MS.

 

[stonesak]

I will say pricing something right can do wonders, IF MS drops the Kinect and can get out a $299 XBO soon, they will kill the PS4

And the Xbox division.

 

[Elios83]

When are we going to get other comparisons?
AC4? NFS?
Btw I've been hearing reports from people who attended the gamesweek in Milan last week...and it seems like the FIFA 2014 comparison will be interesting as well

 

[LiquidMetal14]

They kept feeding that group; you are discounting that for some reason. Exclusive DLC was a huge boon for 360 gamers. Kinect didn't even register with this group of players, at least the ones I know. They were hooked and as long as the multi plats kept coming they were content. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, for sure.

I should have elaborated more. Them winning the core a while back guaranteed them that crowd for the most part. By that inherited right (which was earned), they have had the most success in terms of multiplatform sales for games like GTA or almost any major release.

What I'm getting at is Sony's production and track record with games has been better the last few years vs MSFT's kinect focused efforts and multiplatform games on top of some of the games you noted.

That distinction will carry over to this generation since it looks like Sony is continuing that path of great games and in large quantities with PS4.

That there should carry it for a while and they haven't announced hardly anything from their top talent.

That kind of situation will play itself out and I have no doubt now that Sony has the price on their side on top of the games advantage that the rolls will be reversed. I have a harder time seeing them dominate in the states though but things are looking a lot better for them right now.

If the major bad news for Sony is lack of BG's, MP3, or DLNA at launch then I think they've done quite well.

I think I wouldn't have said the same for MSFT but despite all the riff raff the forum goes over they've made some strides.