I'm constantly switching back and forth between imagining how amazing this could be and being terrified of all the ways it could go wrong.
Don't do this to me.
Don't do this to me.
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Emily Rogers: Nintendo Working on Unannounced Wii U Game [Update: Paper Mario]
- Thread starter Tom Nook Sawyer
- Start date
zenosparadox
Member
Obviously this is just an opinion, but my opinion is that you are insane.
Level design in the NSMB games far surpasses their predecessors. They are unmatched in quantity and quality of ideas. The only things they really don't change up much are the world themes and music, but in terms of world themes that's been par for the course before NSMB. At least they have more variety in that department than SMW.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
They're about 130 deep according to wiki. Most studios don't aren't really split into teams... They just have multiple projects going at once, and staff are moved around as necessary as the projects progress.
IntySys has been pretty busy this generation:
-Pushmo
-Fire Emblem Awakening
-Crashmo
-Paper Mario: Sticker Star
-Game & Wario (co-developed with SPD)
-Pushmo World
-Code Name: S.T.E.A.M.
-Stretchmo
-Fire Emblem Fates
-SMT x FE (co-developed with Atlus)
So on average, they seem to release about two titles a year. Perhaps one fully fledged retail release and one smaller eShop game. I haven't played all those titles but the ones I did didn't at all seem like they felt rushed. I hope the same will be true with this Paper Mario game if it is actually exists and is intended for release on Wii U this year.
TTYD wasn't at the end of the GC lifecycle, and considering the size of the GC userbase, it sold well (over a million).
The first song is from SM64.
I like the second song (the battle), but I don't even think it's among the best in the OST.
I could post some songs, but I don't really like to get into music things. Too subjective and it's kinda pointless.
SS is definitely jazzy and big-bandy so it'll have those instruments. M&L is Shimomura so that's an example of a recent game without that music aesthetic.
That's from 2013 though right
HUELEN10
Member
I'll agree with you on the console ones.
And 2 was solid throughout, but not as good.
But the original sucked.
NDP_Mulcair
Banned
So why are the worlds the exact....same.....fucking....thing....every.....single....time....
NSMB DS:
World 1: Grassland
World 2: Desert
World 3: Beach with islands / ocean
World 4: Tropical forest with poisonous swamps
World 5: Ice
World 6: Rocky mountain
World 7: Sky
World 8: Volcanic
NSMB 2:
World 1: Grassland
World 2: Desert
World 3: Tropical / forest
World 4: Ice
World 5: Sky / mountain
World 6: Volcanic
NSMB Wii:
World 1: Grassland
World 2: Desert
World 3: Ice
World 4: Beach with islands / ocean
World 5: Tropical forest with poisonous swamps
World 6: Rocky mountain
World 7: Sky
World 8: Volcano
NSMB U:
World 1: Grassland
World 2: Desert
World 3: Islands / ocean
World 4: Ice
World 5: Tropical Forest with poisonous swamps
World 6: Rocky mountain
World 7: Sky
World 8: Volcano
3D World:
World 1: Grassland
World 2: Desert
World 3: Ice
World 4: Canyon / mountain
World 5: Beach / ocean
World 6: Sky
World Castle: Volcano
World Bowser: Amusement park
Paper Mario: Sticker Star
World 1: Grassland
World 2: Desert
World 3: Forest with poisonous swamps
World 4: Ice
World 5: Jungle with volcano
World 6: Sky with volcano
Mario and Luigi Paper Jam:
Grassland, desert, ice, jungle, volcano, etc., etc..
Like, I don't get it. I don't get why they would willingly have the exact same worlds time and time and time and time and time again. What designer would subject themselves to such ridiculous monotony?
And why do they have to infect IPs outside of NSMB with it?
Level design ≠ level theming.
I'm in full agreement that using the same places over and over again is really tiring, though.
I am ready!
Though I'd hope for a free-form entry that takes some risks, tired of same-ol formula. Give me some post-Splatoon risk taking Nintendo.
Sure, but imagine if Luigi's Mansion inexplicably took place in houses themed as "grassland, desert, ice, jungle, volcano, etc., etc." in every single game. You'd get bored of the theme irregardless of how good the level design may or may not be.
Though I'd hope for a free-form entry that takes some risks, tired of same-ol formula. Give me some post-Splatoon risk taking Nintendo.
Sure, but imagine if Luigi's Mansion inexplicably took place in houses themed as "grassland, desert, ice, jungle, volcano, etc., etc." in every single game. You'd get bored of the theme irregardless of how good the level design may or may not be.
Of course I mostly mean NSMBWii and NSMBU. They are at the top of my list of 2D Mario games. NSMB2 is solid and I'd say it's at least on par with SMB3, maybe a bit below. NSMB isn't THAT bad, though. It has some really good ideas in there that haven't shown up since that really should come back.
Dr. Feel Good
Banned
Most Mario games sell over a million copies, but relative to Nintendo franchises the traditional Paper Mario titles have not been stand out. Paper Mario TTYD was released in winter of 2004, the GameCube was all but nearly dead at that point.
TheSpaceBetween
Member
Correct, could be more or less now. Probably a bit more I would guess.
Colonel Mustard
Banned
I'm talking about level design, not artistic direction. The setting of a particular stage has little to do with how well it works when you play it. I do wish the NSMB series was a little less sterile, but that doesn't change how well the stages work while playing them. Very few are able to design something that can be really challenging for those that want it and easy for those that don't.
NDP_Mulcair
Banned
I thought level design included designing aesthetics? Well, whatever. I'm not fully up-to-date with game development lingo, I guess.
Guess I have some learning to do!
I agree with you there. Nintendo definitely still has a knack for designing platformers in terms of gameplay.
The issue isn't only that the levels are themed around the same geographic/terrain concepts, but also that the aesthetics themselves are so similar. I think there are any number of ways to reimagine what a lava level looks like. But they haven't done it yet. I'm speaking about the NSMB series here, but after Sticker Star, this is a growing concern for Paper Mario as well.
Let's be fair to 3DWorld, it is intentionally meant to ape the old 2D worlds (as it is a 3D homage/take on the old games) and it does so.
And they haven't infected their more recent non-Mario games nor is it in every Mario spin-off either. Capitan Todd went all over, YWW has a candy world and many worlds themed more on materials and their applications than anything else, as examples. Kirby followed the Kirby formula, no NSMBing.
I do believe there is some left-over "habit" from when NSMB was popular and trying to apply that aesthetic was a good choice for casual "familiarity" (its also easy to apply as it gives you "copypasta" thematics to always work on like a checkbox, which of course is a form of laziness or an ability to leave a comfort zone), but more recent titles have definitely started diverging. I also don't think a "let's re-use assets to save on time and money" game like Paper Jam is a good indication of where a console game (with no assets, mind you, to reuse) is going to end up. This game is going to have to have pretty much all of its art work and asset generation be brand new, so there's really no reason (or excuse) for them to not make bizzarro Paper Mario things.
Yeah, I think they were growing.
But other smarter people would likely know for sure.
Answer this. Why is this a problem only after they added "New" to the title and not before? Why isn't SMW lumped in as being a bad game when it regressed world themes following SMB3? Why are these themes important at all when the levels themselves use the themes in different ways and contain new ideas? The use of these themes has nothing to do with the fact that NSMBWii and NSMBU have absolutely stellar level design and tons of great new ideas.
SMB1, SMB2, and SMW have the following themes: ground, underground, underwater, tree, bridge, mushroom, castle. SMW has ghost house as an additional theme.
The NSMB games combine the classic themes above and other themes with world themes to create unique level types. For example NSMBU has a mushroom level set in a jungle with poison water.
I agree they shouldn't do it with games like Paper Mario, though. RPGs should have more world building.
I don't think any PM game has been a real standout sales wise though. The highest selling one was SPM at 4.23 mil on a system with a userbase of over 100 mil. The next best selling game in the series is at 2.24 million sold. Typically a series that does well but never really amazing.
Also looking at the numbers again and TTYD actually managed 1.9 mil and was the 12th best selling game on the GC. I just don't see how those numbers are mediocre. Even the original N64 game did 1.37m releasing in 2001!
I'm sure that Nintendo are aware of the reaction to the last 2 Paper games, hopefully if IntSys is making a new one (and they are the main developer rather than an outside team) then it's a true sequel to TTYD. The franchise needs it after the divisive recent games.
Leave 3D world out of this. Though the main worlds all stick to this aesthetic the actual levels in the world don't. 1-1 is grassland but 1-2 is underground and 1-3 is a carnival. There's very little coherence between the world aesthetic and level aesthetic.
Because the old mario games changed the visuals a lot between each games, and the NSMB games look like the same game.
Even with the reactions from SS, I could see them still sticking with that idea and just trying to refine it into a better game. If that happens, I hope people at least give it a shot before writing it off for not being TTYD again.
But I do hope for them to either go back to PM1/2.
They probably have grown but likely not much past ~150, they did move to their own building, though, rather than being inside of Nintendo in the most bizarre set-up ever (but, really, despite not being "owned" by Nintendo, they are Nintendo).
NDP_Mulcair
Banned
I'm not saying they're bad. A lot of these games are fun to play and well-designed. They have obviously fantastic critical reception and I enjoyed playing them.
I'm bothered why they have such a rigid adherence to themes, and why that rigid adherence is spilling into other IPs that used to be brimming with theme creativity. Remember Rogueport in Thousand Year Door?
I just don't understand why Nintendo can't do something different for themes. Can someone answer that?
If the levels inside the worlds are so radically different with newer games like 3D World, why don't they get more creative with the overworlds? Why is there such a rigid adherence to the same thing over and over? Why do their visual designers have such a passionate desire to go "classic" time and time again? Why does Paper Mario have to follow the same designs and development philosophies?
Criticizing music is usually going to be very subjective. I actually like the big band theme but it is the quality and tepid nature of the songs that bother me. The first example sounds like the band was about to pass out from elephant tranquilizers, the second is good but has that same sort of flat brass sound.
Another example would be Super Bell Hill from Super Mario 3D world:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dI8slLrX0kA
compared with Dolphin Shoals (amazing, especially towards the end):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El9ylMmOG64
Sticker Star really went all out in making the whole world look like it was made from papercraft, for a 3DS game it looked amazing. One of the few things I really liked about the game and I hope this WiiU one takes inspiration from it, but with more creative world design.
SinCityAssassin
Member
I just hope they retain the paper physics from Sticker Star. As lukewarm as the game is, those fucking paper mechanics were the most papery I ever seen Paper Mario. A stack of papers in a cabinet actually being a prison for dozens of Toads and they just fly out of there was great.
Nothing too major, just that...
...When you first meet up with four of the Koopalings shortly after the second boss fight, Roy (my boy!) eventually poses the general question of why they haven't seen Paper versions of themselves. Wendy just passes off their counterparts' absence off as because they're "doing something else important".
It's probably nothing more than a cute reference, but it would be funny if IntSys did indeed already plan to use the Koopalings in their next Mario game and that insert in Alphadream's game was just meant to be a small hint for what was on the way.
I never played it, but this will be the first console one since TTYD (I don't count Super Paper Mario as that game was...jank) and that one failed to live up to the concept aesthetically IMO.
I wanna see the grain.
If this game actually is in the localization/testing phase, the development cycles for the two games probably did line up enough for that to be the case.
Colonel Mustard
Banned
Wouldn't be the first time where they alluded to a different game in Paper Mario. The first game mentions Luigi's Mansion through his diary, does it not?
i agree, except with the 3d world part. Why does...the overworld matter for that game if the stages are varied.
If all these could theoretically be in the same world I don't have a problem:
etc
why do they keep the same overworld style? dunno, but can't say I care too much.
IchigoSharingan
Member
I am laughing my fucking ass off at this while my girlfriend is trying to tell me a sob story. She is now punching the shit out of me.
NDP_Mulcair
Banned
Mario 64, Mario Galaxy and Mario Sunshine from EAD had such unique and fantastic overworlds. I was in love with their hub worlds.
And then from that we got Mario 3D World which had such a disappointing, boring overworld with the same boring classic themes (except that lovely carnival world!)
We know what the Mario teams are capable with if they put their mind to it with overworlds, but they hold back. It's a weird tinge of laziness in a game oozing with style and creative levels.
That was a really weird dichotomy from me, and a major step back from EAD Tokyo's history in that regard. Same with 3D Land and 3D World's decision to make you grab a flagpole under a time limit or the lack of any story besides the usual 10-second one. A rather minor case of NSMBification, sure, but one that's still present in a small way.
But I know other Mario titles have had a much more severe case of NSMBification, like Sticker Star.
It's not just 3D World. The NSMB games stick to the World theme more, but, well, here's NSMBU's World 1: Grassland.
3 grass levels, an underground level, a mushroom level, an underwater level, a tower, and a castle. Those 3 grass levels are pretty much the only grass levels in the game. The only other level that uses the grass background is in Superstar Road and is a spinecoaster level.
Well that's not true: http://i.imgur.com/iP3tkGb.png
Yeah, I'm not a fan of Super Bell Hill. I don't hate it, but it's just there.
but again, I feel 3D World has a great soundtrack as well as Sticker Star.
we know histrocrats. Then there's Double Cherry Pass, bullet bill brigade, bullet bill express, Great Tower Showdown 2, etc are great imo.
For Sticker Star, there's Petey Pirhana, Sorrow on the waves is a nice twist, A thousand miles away, and others I'd say
oh you meant the hub worlds. Well, yeah in that case, they were a lot better than 3D world since they were basically stages themselves. I'm not that high on Galaxy's hub world to be honest though. It was kinda eh for me.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Do you legitimately believe they stopped doing hub worlds because they're lazy
Xaero Gravity
NEXT LEVEL lame™
This so fucking much.
And the amusement park world doesn't feature a single amusement park themed level. The levels on that world are just a random mix of ghost house levels, lava, a really really short train level, another extremely short level where you mount Yoshi's cousin wich I forgot his name right now, etc. : / Post-game worlds are way better and have tons of variety though. It's where SM3DW shines the most. Other than that, yeah. Much of the same
Yeah there is no reason for the so called bland and soulless art styles anymore, I always thought of it as a side effect of the expanded audience design mentality of making things simple and easy to grasp.
It appears to be a cost-cutting / resource saving thing, given they go all out for select titles and hold back for others. At least you could say Nintendo has their priorities straight because their games are always mechanically solid which is the deciding factor for me.
Just imagine stripping a Mario Maker level down to the very essentials; remove every object that isn't necessary for reaching the flag and every enemy that isn't used as a meaningful stage hazard. You know how sometimes you walk up to a door that is framed as the entrance to a house, a castle or a haunted mansion that they built with various blocks purely for production values? Remove literally everything except the door. I would still play that level if it's mechanically interesting, but for many it seems that personality and context is very important.
No. I believe that any change in the RPG nature of Paper Mario since SPM (removal of things such as story, party members, hub worlds, etc) was because of Miyamoto thinking he knows what's best for this franchise when really he has no idea why it was successful in the first place.
Keep Miyamoto away and it should be fine.
It's easy to forget that Mario 64 really only started the trend out of necessity.