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[NHale]

Seems like a lot of fearmongering to me. For the foreseeable future most good devs will target Xbox One and PS4 spec as that is their target audience. The ones that jump the gun and gimp the base PS4 version, just avoid their games.

For the first year yes but after that there is no way that happens. Developers will always target the platform that better shows their game. That's why we get PC demos claiming they are PS4/XB1 demos or demos that aren't actually playable.

Do you really think they will not start focusing on the platform that better enables to show off their game to the public? Also it will be easier to develop, so anyone in the right mind will focus on that. No dev is a masochist.

PS4 and XB1 versions can always be outsourced to Iron Galaxy Studios.

 

[Fox318]

They should have named the system after John Wick

 

[rardk64]

2. Stemming from point 1, if PS4 games are to start running at some lowered performance metric - whether it be resolution, framerate, or graphics settings - they would be doing so regardless of the existence of PS4 Neo. No amount of "squeezing" or "tricks" is going to change the fact that the CPU and GPU are out of date at this point. So if we start seeing Vanilla PS4 games running sub-1080P, blaming the PS4 Neo is an exercise in futility because they would have been that way whether or not Neo was an option.

The problem with this point is that developers will want to use the advancements of the Neo, so they will. This means they could potentially care less about how the game performs on the original PS4. Since some games are already experiencing performance issues as it is, developing a more demanding game because a new PS4 model allows for it means they could potentially make games that perform even worse. That's a bad thing.

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

Your original ps4 will still work, just like my Xbox one will. The product you bought still works. I see it just like PC to a certain extent. Every year new video cards come out that are (usually) better and that doesn't mean that the one you bought last year is completely useless. Same concept with this move, let the enthusiasts buy the updated model and make the original cheaper.

The difference here is that I can usually configure the pc game to run at 60fps even with the older gpu by lowering settings. That won't be a choice for us on ps4. We just have to hope devs prioritize framerate over graphics. At least in MP please.

 

[John Wick]

Going to plan ahead for this thing, so what are the chances that my current PS4 games (digital and physical copies) get Neo-mode options if I upgrade the PS4 to the new model?

Not really worth it to me if I have to rebuy all the games just for a Neo-mode version of said games.

I already hate saying neo-mode, lmao.

You won't be getting Neo mode versions of current games. Neo will run your current library but just like a normal PS4

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

The concern is this thread is real. Several points to consider:

1. This generation isn't like the past - consoles are using an understood and proven architecture (x86) for game design and execution. What this means is that we're not going to see the "developers getting more power out of the console as they learn tricks" situation that was seen in previous generations. In fact, devs are already hitting the wall in terms of power utilization and have likely been hitting that wall for some time. Console games are more bound by the hardware they're running on than they've ever been - and the hardware just isn't that great.

I wish people would realise this especially. There's going to be none of this surprise extra juice as developers 'figure out' how to work with these machines like they did with the Cell or Emotion Engine or whatever. These are machines with off the shelf PC components that were outdated the moment they hit store shelves.

What you're seeing now is more or less what you're going to get until PS5. No amount of 'optimisation' is going to make you squeeze more frames out of these machines or give a significant boost in visuals.

 

[bananafactory]

For the first year yes but after that there is no way that happens. Developers will always target the platform that better shows their game. That's why we get PC demos claiming they are PS4/XB1 demos or demos that aren't actually playable.

Do you really think they will not start focusing on the platform that better enables to show off their game to the public? Also it will be easier to develop, so anyone in the right mind will focus on that. No dev is a masochist.

PS4 and XB1 versions can always be outsourced to Iron Galaxy Studios.

So with this logic, why aren't devs already just focusing on PC versions and outsourcing the console versions?

 

[Interfectum]

For the first year yes but after that there is no way that happens. Developers will always target the platform that better shows their game. That's why we get PC demos claiming they are PS4/XB1 demos or demos that aren't actually playable.

Do you really think they will not start focusing on the platform that better enables to show off their game to the public? Also it will be easier to develop, so anyone in the right mind will focus on that. No dev is a masochist.

PS4 and XB1 versions can always be outsourced to Iron Galaxy Studios.

Again, fear mongering. You have no idea what will happen as this has never happened before. You don't even know what you're talking about when saying the PS4 version will be outsourced to IGS. The PS4 and PS4k versions are the same game. There won't be separate discs or downloads. Features will be turned on/off depending on the system its in.

And devs already show off PC screens to the public whenever possible.

 

[Bsigg12]

You won't be getting Neo mode versions of current games. Neo will run your current library but just like a normal PS4

It sounds like that is up to developers. If they want to go back and add that support in an update, it's an option available to them.

 

[Hexa]

The difference here is that I can usually configure the pc game to run at 60fps even with the older gpu by lowering settings. That won't be a choice for us on ps4. We just have to hope devs prioritize framerate over graphics. At least in MP please.

Since the CPU bump is tiny I wouldn't expect there to be that many games that jump from 30 to 60fps. More stable fps sure, but I think for the most part the advantage will mostly be resolution and graphics.

 

[creatchee]

The problem with this point is that developers will want to use the advancements of the Neo, so they will. This means they could potentially care less about how the game performs on the original PS4. Since some games are already experiencing performance issues as it is, developing a more demanding game because a new PS4 model allows for it means they could potentially make games that perform even worse. That's a bad thing.

There will be less Neos in the world than Vanillas for the foreseeable future - perhaps for the lifetime of both versions. Devs and publishers aren't stupid - they know that online criticism of performance goes as long way, and if people find that the Vanilla version runs terribly, they probably won't buy it. They'd be hurting their own pocketbook, so I'd imagine they'd avoid that situation entirely by not gimping Vanilla versiona just because they have a better Neo version.

 

[PandaShake]

The problem with this point is that developers will want to use the advancements of the Neo, so they will. This means they could potentially care less about how the game performs on the original PS4. Since some games are already experiencing performance issues as it is, developing a more demanding game because a new PS4 model allows for it means they could potentially make games that perform even worse. That's a bad thing.

Then we should vote with our wallets against these devs if they become lazy in optimizing for PS4/Xbox 1. We know what these boxes can do with Quantum Break and UC4 coming soon. Not blame and fear new hardware.

 

[Jakoo]

Austin Walker Is Still A Threat

 

[I'm Spartacus]

I remain cautious about this but more cautiously optimistic than cautiously pessimistic. It could work out really well if Sony play this right but the possibility of a huge misstep is pretty evident - like the Digital Foundry article suggests, it seems a concrete thing but why does it exist at all? (Yeah, the obvious answer is £$£$£$£$) I don't doubt that people will buy it, hell I might, but it does seem to me that this entire generation in terms of key-releases has been in slow motion to this point and is only just getting going.

Have Sony and indeed developers known about this for a while and perhaps put some of their key-titles on hold until it appears? There seems to be a plethora of titles we should've expected to see released by now that haven't even been officially announced and yet we're 2 1/2 years into a Gen. If publishers have been holding stuff back because of things like Neo/Xbox 1.5, then every adopter of current gen tech should feel pretty short changed as actually, they are getting the "basic" version. Is it such a leap of faith to suggest that the likes of GT7, Resi 7, Elder Scrolls 6, God of War 4, all of Rockstar's new stuff, etc (as well as the vast majority of Sony studio stuff) has been intentionally held back until the dust settles?

 

[Big Green Anus]

The CPU is dire needs of a replacement. I would prefer a 2.5-3.0 GPU if that meant we get a different CPU all together. I can see Microsoft releasing a Zen CPU or something better than that by 2017

 

[Lister]

So with this logic, why aren't devs already just focusing on PC versions and outsourcing the console versions?

Some do precisely that.

 

[orioto]

Seems like a lot of fearmongering to me. For the foreseeable future most good devs will target Xbox One and PS4 spec as that is their target audience. The ones that jump the gun and gimp the base PS4 version, just avoid their games.

A lot of PS4/XBO games already have terrible performances lol.. This is really naive to think a PS4 Neo won't make it worse.. Did you see FFXV ?

It's already perfectly acceptable for big devs to make a game that runs badly on PS4. They will just have even less concern for it when they can show the Neo version running well.

 

[Hexa]

Some do precisely that.

Examples? WB sometimes and a lot of Japanese devs do that opposite, in that they mainly do consoles and outsource the PC versions, but I haven't heard much about the opposite.

 

[Interfectum]

A lot of PS4/XBO games already have terrible performances lol.. This is really naive to think a PS4 Neo won't make it worse.. Did you see FFXV ?

It's already perfectly acceptable for big devs to make a game that runs badly on PS4. They will just have even less concern for it when they can show the Neo version running well.

If PS4 versions already run like shit, then what does that have to do with PS4k?

 

[viHuGi]

The problem with this point is that developers will want to use the advancements of the Neo, so they will. This means they could potentially care less about how the game performs on the original PS4. Since some games are already experiencing performance issues as it is, developing a more demanding game because a new PS4 model allows for it means they could potentially make games that perform even worse. That's a bad thing.

And you think Sony will allow them to do that to at least 55m Ps4 owners (userbase by December) ??

They arent even accepting sub 60fps games on VR.

 

[Lister]

Frankly I still think this is a decent value for a PS4 only gamer, assuming Gamestop doesn't drop the trade-in value of the PS4 too much.

For anyone with a gaming PC, even one that needs a GPU upgrade, this isn't a veyr good value. WIth $225 you cna match the GPU, with $300 you're doing much better than the PS4k, and that's before the new cards come out, and before any trade in-resale value of your current GPU on eBay or Amazon or what have you.

 

[TGO]

I think Sony needs to be extremely careful how they market this.
I can see people buying NEO expecting more and seeing no difference, especially with how people are with framerates.

 

[Aureon]

Since the CPU bump is tiny I wouldn't expect there to be that many games that jump from 30 to 60fps. More stable fps sure, but I think for the most part the advantage will mostly be resolution and graphics.

performance is most often gpu-capped more than cpu-capped this gen.

 

[otakukidd]

The problem with this point is that developers will want to use the advancements of the Neo, so they will. This means they could potentially care less about how the game performs on the original PS4. Since some games are already experiencing performance issues as it is, developing a more demanding game because a new PS4 model allows for it means they could potentially make games that perform even worse. That's a bad thing.

But they can already do that now to a way higher extent with PC. Just cause they make a pc version exists doesn't mean the ps4 version will be potentiially worse.

 

[potatohead]

I think Sony needs to be extremely careful how they market this.
I can see people buying NEO expecting more and seeing no difference, especially with how people are with framerates.

Correction: people on the internet are with framerates.

 

[viHuGi]

A lot of PS4/XBO games already have terrible performances lol.. This is really naive to think a PS4 Neo won't make it worse.. Did you see FFXV ?

It's already perfectly acceptable for big devs to make a game that runs badly on PS4. They will just have even less concern for it when they can show the Neo version running well.

Most games i´ve played run pretty well, Witchet had some problems but all fixed now.

There are some Indie Games with very bad performance but dont blame Ps4 for that lol

 

[Lister]

Examples? WB sometimes and a lot of Japanese devs do that opposite, in that they mainly do consoles and outsource the PC versions, but I haven't heard much about the opposite.

CD Project Red, Dice, PRetty much every mid and small dev team workign on UE, Unity or Cryengine.

 

[viHuGi]

Correction: people on the internet are with framerates.

Never saw a single friend on real life that talks about frame rates or even cares, it is just a hardcore thing and most people who buy pc and console dont care if the game is good enough like 90% of the games are.

 

[amardilo]

I'm guess that even with the upped GPU 4K might be a stretch for a lot of games so does anyone think we could see 1080p games that use some of the power of the GPU used for CPU type tasks?

If so would that help stuff like framerates (more tasks are sent to be done by the GPU so the CPU can work more on the framerate)? Could a lot of tasks like physics calculations be offloaded to the GPU and data in memory switched between the 2?

 

[krang]

People are upset that we're getting better tech? Insanity. This is good news.

Where's that picture of the boy with a Popsicle looking enviously at the girl with an ice cream?

 

[Zaki2407]

I hope they will redesign the case also, rather than slap a "PS4K" or "NEO" logo at the current PS4 case.

 

[potatohead]

Never saw a single friend on real life that talks about frame rates or even cares, it is just a hardcore thing and most people who buy pc and console dont care if the game is good enough like 90% of the games are.

If my friends would notice any input lag for example it would have to be 300 milliseconds plus.

I don't count on them to notice framerates either

Where's that picture of the boy with a Popsicle looking enviously at the girl with an ice cream?

How many flavours of ice cream are in this ice cream cone?

 

[DieH@rd]

I can tell you at least in my personal case, consoles are damn expansive already, and i'm not happy my 400€ PS4 is going to be obsolete 2 years after i bought it.

And how will it be obsolete? You are not forced into an update, and PS4K gamers will not be able to play anything different than you.

 

[Bittercup]

[...]
Now that fundamentally changed with this decision and that's why many like I are upset with this. This wasn't I signed up for, of course Sony as a business can change their strategy and change the rules of the "game" anytime they want. But at the same time people need to understand why some are upset by this. You bought something expecting X because that's how the market worked until now and then you get knifed in the back in the middle of gen cycle. Sony has every right to do this of course but at the same time people have every right to not like it either.
[...]

Great post and this is pretty much how I feel.
My PS4 is not a primary platform for me and I only bought few games for so far.
It's the first console I even bought close to launch. Usually I just wait a few years, but since I had some spare money I bought one. And in the past, there was usually no downside to buy early. The only changes over time are slim models or a small price cut, but no major changes to the performance. Maybe a bigger HDD but those are replaceable anyway. I don't mind not having a slim model.
But if I had know that now suddenly a better model will be released I would have waited. For me this would have been the better decision. But I never had those facts to make a proper decision. That this is happening was never announced at the time and this is something that wasn't to be expected. So I made a decision based on how past generation worked and now it turns out without any heads-up that this generation suddenly changes the 'rules'.
If Sony had been upfront about it I wouldn't be so disappointed.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

Still don't know how I feel about this. Leaning heavily towards not getting it. At least there won't be any Neo only games.

 

[Lister]

I'm guess that even with the upped GPU 4K might be a stretch for a lot of games so does anyone think we could see 1080p games that use some of the power of the GPU used for CPU type tasks?

If so would that help stuff like framerates (more tasks are sent to be done by the GPU so the CPU can work more on the framerate)? Could a lot of tasks like physics calculations be offloaded to the GPU and data in memory switched between the 2?

It doesn't work that way. Some tasks just aren't amenable to the type of parallelism and limited flexibility/robustness of a heap of GPU cores.

That being said, yes, a beefier GPu should, heopfulyl translate to better frame rates.

 

[Interfectum]

I hope they will redesign the case also, rather than slap a "PS4K" or "NEO" logo at the current PS4 case.

There won't be a separate game so you're saying they should redesign all PS4 cases?

 

[TGO]

Correction: people on the internet are with framerates.

Well yeah lol. I can just see them complaints that Sony has ripped them off because they can't tell the difference.

 

[DrFurbs]

So will Sony stop production of the "old" PS4 when this releases?

 

[The God]

And you think Sony will allow them to do that to at least 55m Ps4 owners (userbase by December) ??

They arent even accepting sub 60fps games on VR.

Yes?

 

[rardk64]

And you think Sony will allow them to do that to at least 55m Ps4 owners (userbase by December) ??

They arent even accepting sub 60fps games on VR.

I mean, I'm just saying that's a potential problem with reference to existing games that are struggling on the existing PS4 hardware. But if they do enforce a standard, then it'll all work out.

 

[krang]

How many flavours of ice cream are in this ice cream cone?

Unless one of the flavours is "turd" I don't think it really matters.

 

[Lister]

This thread is also super delivering on my personal fantasy: hard core consoel gamers defending platform upgrades making the same arguments PC gamers have been making since 2005 on the topic of PC upgrades.



Now you guys know how we felt.

 

[rardk64]

But they can already do that now to a way higher extent with PC. Just cause they make a pc version exists doesn't mean the ps4 version will be potentiially worse.

That's not a great comparison. The PS4 version will work well, sure, because they'll develop a PS4 version for the PS4 that works best with the PS4. Now which version of the PS4 will it work best with if they develop it to work best with the PS4 Neo?

Again, not saying this WILL happen. But it's where the concern comes from.

 

[cackhyena]

So will Sony stop production of the "old" PS4 when this releases?

No.

 

[Elandyll]

A lot of PS4/XBO games already have terrible performances lol.. This is really naive to think a PS4 Neo won't make it worse.. Did you see FFXV ?

It's already perfectly acceptable for big devs to make a game that runs badly on PS4. They will just have even less concern for it when they can show the Neo version running well.

Except it makes no sense?

It's one thing to push the envelop on an existing 40m user base to obtain "barely acceptable" results at average 30fps with dips in the low 20s, but it's another to release a game "barely acceptable" and optimized for the as of yet inexisting userbase of an upgraded console profile, leaving 50-55m PS4 userbase (est. by end of '16) with a terrible 900p/ 20-something framerate...

It's pure FUD at this point, and we even have reports that Sony was proactive in its com to devs and Publishers as to where the focus should remain (PS4).

Use common sense ohforfsake ... What makes the most sense?

Optimizing on PS4 @ 1080p30 and then enjoying additional power to push things a bit on PS4K, satisfying owner expectations

...

Or screwing over the vastly more numerous userbase, with the risk of scathing reviews, by optimizing on the more powerful profile and thinking they'll squeeze the PS4 version later with unknown results?

C'mon son...

 

[Bad_Boy]

You won't be getting Neo mode versions of current games. Neo will run your current library but just like a normal PS4

I dont see why first and second party games wouldnt patch something in.

If only evolution was still working driveclub...

 

[Omnistalgic]

I wish people would realise this especially. There's going to be none of this surprise extra juice as developers 'figure out' how to work with these machines like they did with the Cell or Emotion Engine or whatever. These are machines with off the shelf PC components that were outdated the moment they hit store shelves.

What you're seeing now is more or less what you're going to get until PS5. No amount of 'optimisation' is going to make you squeeze more frames out of these machines or give a significant boost in visuals.

mark Cerny did day it will take a few years about 2016/2017 to get the most out of Ps4. Still it's not a low bar, not for me IMO.

Uncharted
Horizon
Ratchet and Clank
NMS

This is "the best we're gonna get"? What's so horrible about that? Lol

 

[russian box]

There won't be any Neo only games just Neo only features, effects, content etc

I'm not too happy about both Sony and MS doing this, Glad to have a PC but feel like my xbone is such a waste.

 

[DrGonzo615]

Still don't know how I feel about this. Leaning heavily towards not getting it. At least there won't be any Neo only games.

This.

How many devs are going to develop a "Neo" mode for their games? And it wont even boost the performance of current games?

So basically $400 for a slightly more powerful console that nobody actually might use.

This feels like the N64 Expansion Pak all over again.