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MMORPG.com gets sneak peek at Everquest Next at E3. Calls it best of show.

I'm sure they will have a camera mode or a zoom that you can be in first person. Does sticksoldier want that amazing original EQ 1 UI also?

preview


Brings me back lol.

Mannnn, I loved that UI lol. I'll always have a spot in my heart for it.
 

Einbroch

Banned
I'm sure they will have a camera mode or a zoom that you can be in first person. Does sticksoldier want that amazing original EQ 1 UI also?

preview

The UI that has yet to be topped.

Man, the Luclin one was such a trainwreck when it first launched. Text didn't fit in boxes, boxes stacked on each other, the "anchors" on the boxes were totally off.

I'm mixed on first person. Was awesome in EQ, but the range of vision third person gives is amazing.
 

Somnia

Member
Have they confirmed live streams of all the panels? I think they did that last year. I want to take August 2nd off, but if they aren't streaming em there's no point.
 

GamerJM

Banned
This is going to sound like a stupid question, but by "Game of the Show," they mean MMO game of the show right? Not actual game of the show? Because I figure "MMORPG.com" doesn't cover non-MMO games, but ya never know.
 

Iadien

Guarantee I'm going to screw up this post? Yeah.
Have they confirmed live streams of all the panels? I think they did that last year. I want to take August 2nd off, but if they aren't streaming em there's no point.

https://twitter.com/Brasse/status/351811228995297281
Brasse ‏@Brasse

@readhere We're working to arrange streams to the best of our technical & personnel limits. Still no substitute for BEING there! #SOELive

I'm sure all or most of the EQN panels will be recorded and uploaded to youtube.

This was posted not too long ago: https://forums.station.sony.com/soe...13-get-ready-to-pick-your-panels.11500062391/

For everyone: Admit it, you’re curious about EverQuest Next. No matter which SOE game you call home, get a front row seat to gaming history at the EverQuest Franchise Keynote Address on Friday morning. Various EQN panels are scheduled throughout the weekend, but SOE is keeping the topics secret for now, so keep an eye out for updates after the big reveal.
 
Yes, they have. MMOs have sacrificed exclusion through difficulty to exclusion through grinding.

Hm? There was way more exclusion through grinding back in the "golden age" of MMOs then there was exclusion due to difficulty. There was nothing difficult about leveling up or questing or anything of the like in EQ1 which is the same way it is now. The only perceived difficulty was because it took a ton of time grinding to make any progress whatsoever but that's not genuine difficulty. There is a big difference between hard and tedious.

Everquest had some extremely difficult raiding and end game stuff, but even that requires tons and tons of grinding and never ending treks to meet the current requirement in AA's to be in a good guild. I would say most modern MMO's such as WoW have just as difficult of raids but in terms of difficulty during everything else its pretty much the exact same as it was in EQ. The only thing that has changed is the amount of tedium between starting to play and that difficult end game stuff which is up to you to decide if its a good thing or not.
 

Jarnet87

Member
The UI that has yet to be topped.

Man, the Luclin one was such a trainwreck when it first launched. Text didn't fit in boxes, boxes stacked on each other, the "anchors" on the boxes were totally off.

I'm mixed on first person. Was awesome in EQ, but the range of vision third person gives is amazing.

Yeah even though it was cluttered and your actual viewing space was like a third of the real estate it worked well lol. I didn't mind the Luclin UI change as it made better use of the screen and got use to it quickly. It's funny looking back being completely overwhelmed with the UI and it becoming second nature, and then trying out Final Fantasy 11 and being like where the hell is everything !

Hope they livestream the reveal and the panels about EQ Next. Don't see any reason why thy wouldn't, they have an official stream channel on Twitch or Ustream I believe.
 

Iadien

Guarantee I'm going to screw up this post? Yeah.
Hm? There was way more exclusion through grinding back in the "golden age" of MMOs then there was exclusion due to difficulty. There was nothing difficult about leveling up or questing or anything of the like in EQ1 which is the same way it is now. The only perceived difficulty was because it took a ton of time grinding to make any progress whatsoever but that's not genuine difficulty. There is a big difference between hard and tedious.

Everquest had some extremely difficult raiding and end game stuff, but even that requires tons and tons of grinding and never ending treks to meet the current requirement in AA's to be in a good guild. I would say most modern MMO's such as WoW have just as difficult of raids but in terms of difficulty during everything else its pretty much the exact same as it was in EQ. The only thing that has changed is the amount of tedium between starting to play and that difficult end game stuff which is up to you to decide if its a good thing or not.

Fear of dying (respawning and needing to retrieve your corpse just to get your shit back, losing exp, etc.), trains (no leashing), mobs summoning, large agro radius, dungeons requiring a group to get anywhere in, managing agro, CC, etc. or do you not count those as adding difficulty?

EQ had tons of difficult raiding before AAs were even introduced to the game.
 
Fear of dying (respawning and needing to retrieve your corpse just to get your shit back, losing exp, etc.), trains (no leashing), mobs summoning, large agro radius, dungeons requiring a group to get anywhere in, managing agro, CC, etc. or do you not count those as adding difficulty?

EQ had tons of difficult raiding before AAs were even introduced to the game.

None of that is actually difficult. Those are all tactics to make your leveling up experience take longer. Actual difficulty would be stuff like encounter strategy, execution and required hand eye coordination, teamwork to the likes of having complete heal rotations for really difficult raids.

I say this as a huge fan of EQ and someone with over 2 complete years time elapsed while in game playing, but there is a very real disconnect between difficulty and tedious busywork.
 

Loxley

Member
SOE have really been nailing it these last couple of years, I'm actually looking forward to seeing what Next is all about despite the fact that I've never touched either of the EQ games.
 
Yes they have, but that's just my opinion, unfortunately.

It seems like all MMORPGs are made these days so that everything is attainable by anyone. Sure it might take some time, but no more than an hour or two commitment every couple of nights.

It's not just the difficulty, but it's the constant handholding and promotion of solo play. It conditions most players to be reliant on being told what to do and to stop playing if they ever finish all of the quests or other prepared content. I much preferred it when the worlds and dungeons were made, but the main focus was on player interaction. You were dropped in a world and had to figure out what to do for yourself. There was lore, but the real stories grew as a result of interaction between players.

It's gone too far in the "Dungon Master's Girlfriend" direction where the player is mostly right and mostly not at fault. So far that even doing so is no longer an attraction but merely basic mandatory expectations and no guarentee of success (as WoW's plunging subs despite constant nerfs and a multitude of dead claimants to its throne can attest to). "Quality", "innovation", "community", and "balance" are the first thrown overboard when guarenteed success, convenience, and no frustration are in danger.

We need a moderating force. We need nobler goals in reguards to game design in this genre. I seriously hope EQN is that game and does well. EvE along can't do everything.

Yes, they have. MMOs have sacrificed exclusion through difficulty for exclusion through grinding.

No, it's "sacrificed exclusion thru difficulty and grinding for exclusion thru boredom and hermitism".
 

Iadien

Guarantee I'm going to screw up this post? Yeah.
None of that is actually difficult. Those are all tactics to make your leveling up experience take longer. Actual difficulty would be stuff like encounter strategy, execution and required hand eye coordination, teamwork to the likes of having complete heal rotations for really difficult raids.

I say this as a huge fan of EQ and someone with over 2 complete years time elapsed while in game playing, but there is a very real disconnect between difficulty and tedious busywork.

As an enchanter, I would have to disagree with you.

I do find it interesting that you don't consider a large agro radius with wondering mobs, CC, fighting toward your corpse (naked), no leashes, managing agro, etc. as adding to the difficulty.

As someone who raided end game in EQ1, EQ2, WoW, etc. EQ1 offered the most challenging raids (I'll give you that they required large amounts of people, but there were also many raid encounters that most guilds didn't even attempt until expansions later with much better gear and skills/spells.) Top guilds such as FoH, DH, AL were some of the few that even attempted many encounters.
 
As an enchanter, I would have to disagree with you.

CC exists in plenty of other MMOs, if anything having that tool at your disposal for when your group or you yourself make a mistake is reducing the difficulty.

The disconnect here is that you are counting tedious unavoidable mechanics tied to the leveling progress as difficulty which I don't count at all.

For me difficulty is a direct non fluctuating goal to overcome, something like trains or fear of dying are unavoidable constants that if they happen its just oh well gotta spend time getting back to the position I was in before. The reason you fear death is because its going to take a long time to recover from it not because you fear actually failing in whatever it was you were doing.

If something is difficult you don't need extra motivation not to fail because the entire point of difficulty is the drive to overcome it.

Edit for your edit: I am aware how hard the endgame raiding was in Everquest, I was in a guild that was among the cutting edge progression for quite some time including some of the hardest content like CoA and Mata Muram, Planes of Time and Quarm as well as Tacvi and Tunat Muram and many others. Another thing to take into consideration is the difference between a well designed encounter that is really difficult and a poorly designed encounter that is impossible to beat without waiting to overgear it a ton. WoW has fights that are just as difficult at the highest end as EQ had, but EQ was strongest in its raiding anyways. It was alot of the rest that will need tweaking and changing.
 

Iadien

Guarantee I'm going to screw up this post? Yeah.
CC exists in plenty of other MMOs, if anything having that tool at your disposal for when your group or you yourself make a mistake is reducing the difficulty.

Charm fighting was anything but easy.

I would really like to know what you consider difficult in an MMO. I've played pretty much every western released MMO, so I would like to know which ones you considered difficult.
 
Charm fighting was anything but easy.

I would really like to know what you consider difficult in an MMO. I've played pretty much every western released MMO, so I would like to know which ones you considered difficult.

WoW has top end content that is just as difficult as Ever Quests was. That wasn't really my point though, my point is that outside of raiding and the top end content no mmo has ever really been truly difficult. There has been varying levels of tedious over the years that has lessened and lessened to modern day but the actual difficulty of each encounter while leveling up has stayed largely nonexistent since the earliest days.

As for what I consider difficulty, I delved into it earlier a bit with
For me difficulty is a direct non fluctuating goal to overcome, something like trains or fear of dying are unavoidable constants that if they happen its just oh well gotta spend time getting back to the position I was in before. The reason you fear death is because its going to take a long time to recover from it not because you fear actually failing in whatever it was you were doing.
 
WoW has top end that is just as difficult as Ever Quests was. That wasn't really my point though, my point is that outside of raiding and the top end no mmo has ever really been truly difficult. There has been varying levels of tedious over the years that has lessened and lessened to modern day but the actual difficulty of each encounter while leveling up has stayed largely nonexistent since the earliest days.

As for what I consider difficulty, I delved into it earlier a bit with

So it's not less difficult, it's fewer difficult?
 

Shrennin

Didn't get the memo regarding the 14th Amendment
No, it's "sacrificed exclusion thru difficulty and grinding for exclusion thru boredom and hermitism".

That's a great amendment to my original statement. That was what I pretty much meant - grinding in MMOs today isn't really all that fun nor is the social aspect really encouraged (which could make grinding in MMOs of the past really fun like Star Wars Galaxies) and the grinding isn't all that difficult.

I also wasn't actually referring to EQ in my original statement because I never played an EQ game. I hope EQ Next won't have the hardcore grinding of EQ1.
 
CC exists in plenty of other MMOs, if anything having that tool at your disposal for when your group or you yourself make a mistake is reducing the difficulty.

The disconnect here is that you are counting tedious unavoidable mechanics tied to the leveling progress as difficulty which I don't count at all.

For me difficulty is a direct non fluctuating goal to overcome, something like trains or fear of dying are unavoidable constants that if they happen its just oh well gotta spend time getting back to the position I was in before. The reason you fear death is because its going to take a long time to recover from it not because you fear actually failing in whatever it was you were doing.

If something is difficult you don't need extra motivation not to fail because the entire point of difficulty is the drive to overcome it.

Edit for your edit: I am aware how hard the endgame raiding was in Everquest, I was in a guild that was among the cutting edge progression for quite some time including some of the hardest content like CoA and Mata Muram, Planes of Time and Quarm as well as Tacvi and Tunat Muram and many others. Another thing to take into consideration is the difference between a well designed encounter that is really difficult and a poorly designed encounter that is impossible to beat without waiting to overgear it a ton. WoW has fights that are just as difficult at the highest end as EQ had, but EQ was strongest in its raiding anyways. It was alot of the rest that will need tweaking and changing.

The reason I played MMOs was precisely for the unpredictability of playing online with other people.

The best thing about EQ for me was the flexibility of the game in facilitating creating your own challenges. The most fun I had in EQ aside from raiding was trioing group content with a paladin, enchanter, and rogue. Those tedious mechanics could still be manipulated in creative ways.

Certainly you could argue none if this is unique to EQ or even MMOs, but it still is the reason I would not agree that difficulty is a static quantity.
 
I'm having a somewhat hard time grasping what it is you are trying to say, could you elaborate a little further?

Difficulty isn't of a single type that you agree with other than to yourself. You didn't prove that those other things weren't actually difficult, just disliked by you (which I have my own list of). You did a great job on that though. In other words, fewer difficulty factors, not that the remaining factors were less difficult.
 
The reason I played MMOs was precisely for the unpredictability of playing online with other people.

The best thing about EQ for me was the flexibility of the game in facilitating creating your own challenges. The most fun I had in EQ aside from raiding was trioing group content with a paladin, enchanter, and rogue. Those tedious mechanics could still be manipulated in creative ways.

Certainly you could argue none if this is unique to EQ or even MMOs, but it still is the reason I would not agree that difficulty is a static quantity.

I wouldn't argue any of what you are saying, I had a great time with EQ myself. My point of contention was the article stating that outside of the end game that modern MMOs have gotten far more casual and less difficult. My view is that those parts of the game were never really difficult the way they were build, sure you could manipulate situations to make them difficult but like you said that goes for all mmos.

I just don't think the leveling was more difficult in EQ than any other mmo because they are built to encourage you to progress. The endgame is the part where you are challenged and encouraged to lose. Older MMO's had stuff that that made the leveling track more tedious but that can be seen as good or bad depending on your tastes.


As for
Difficulty isn't of a single type that you agree with other than to yourself. You didn't prove that those other things weren't actually difficult, just disliked by you (which I have my own list of). You did a great job on that though. In other words, fewer difficulty factors, not that the remaining factors were less difficult.

Of course difficulty is going to be subjective, It is safe to assume that someone taking issue with an article that was entirely based on opinion is going to use his own opinion to debate against it. That's how discussion works, we take our opinions and discuss the differences and why we feel the way we do and if we end up agreeing on it then that's cool, and if not that's cool too. I played EQ for years and years and did just about everything there was to do in the game and didn't find the leveling up part of the game difficult in the least, that's my opinion and my personal experience.
 
I wouldn't argue any of what you are saying, I had a great time with EQ myself. My point of contention was the article stating that outside of the end game that modern MMOs have gotten far more casual and less difficult. My view is that those parts of the game were never really difficult the way they were build, sure you could manipulate situations to make them difficult but like you said that goes for all mmos.

I just don't think the leveling was more difficult in EQ than any other mmo because they are built to encourage you to progress. The endgame is the part where you are challenged and encouraged to lose. Older MMO's had stuff that that made the leveling track more tedious but that can be seen as good or bad depending on your tastes.

The biggest difference for me was going from the most effective leveling being in a group in EQ and FFXI to solo in WoW. I honestly bought into this as the salvation of MMOs from the tedium of grinding and wasted evenings, but of course all it meant was a paradigm shift from one kind of grind to another.

As an aside, I never thought of grinding as difficult either way, but eliminating the group took a bite out of things like community and server reputations. More importantly though I think it caused a shift from the idea that you have to work with others to progress to essentially mute speedrunning. By the time people had to group to gear their characters, you were left with people who couldn't give a rat's ass that they didn't know how to play in a group.

Maybe this is a side effect that gives the illusion that the game was easier. I will say though that BRD with people who would rather not be there was a chore within a week, whereas I probably spent 6 months in Sebilis and don't even remember the grinding.
 
The biggest difference for me was going from the most effective leveling being in a group in EQ and FFXI to solo in WoW. I honestly bought into this as the salvation of MMOs from the tedium of grinding and wasted evenings, but of course all it meant was a paradigm shift from one kind of grind to another.

As an aside, I never thought of grinding as difficult either way, but eliminating the group took a bite out of things like community and server reputations. More importantly though I think it caused a shift from the idea that you have to work with others to progress to essentially mute speedrunning. By the time people had to group to gear their characters, you were left with people who couldn't give a rat's ass that they didn't know how to play in a group.

Maybe this is a side effect that gives the illusion that the game was easier. I will say though that BRD with people who would rather not be there was a chore within a week, whereas I probably spent 6 months in Sebilis and don't even remember the grinding.

Yeah I'm not arguing how fun it was or which setup better builds community or anything like that. I just take issue with the mentality that new MMOs are easier because in reality the old MMOs were just as easy they just took longer to make progress which doesn't equate to difficulty.

Its like if my goal is to drive down to the track to try to run a mile in under 5 minutes, so I hop in my car and there's a bunch of traffic and a downpour and a couple accidents along the way so a 10 minute trip to my goal now takes an hour. But none of that stuff is really difficult to deal with, its just kind of annoying and makes it take longer and the actual difficult stuff is still exactly the same, the challenge is the same and ill have to overcome it the same. The 5 minute mile is the part that has always been the difficulty in an MMO, modern MMOs just removed the traffic downpour and accidents and whether you think that's a good thing or not is up to your taste. I just don't think the removal or lack there of changes the difficulty any.
 

Vilam

Maxis Redwood
If it isn't first person, it isn't EverQuest.

All these MMOs since then have catered to 3rd person, and it ruins the immersion of being the character running through this amazing world. None of them have done a 1st person view justice. EQ needs to stand out, it needs to be different, and it needs to respect its roots. Make me want to play in 1st person again, please.

I have to believe there's still room in the genre for a hardcore niche game done in a reasonable way with compelling features to draw those dedicated few in. If they don't shoot for the stars and have a reasonable budget with a killer art style they can be a success. Think the Eve Online of the fantasy MMO genre.

Whatever they do, there's one thing that's absolutely integral... NO INSTANCES. Instanced content ruined everything fun about MMOs and the community they foster.

Ahh man, the more I think and read about the good old days of EQ1 the more things I want them to return to.

Shit sorry, just saw those Smedley tweets... damn those push all the right buttons and get me a bit giddy.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
None of that is actually difficult. Those are all tactics to make your leveling up experience take longer. Actual difficulty would be stuff like encounter strategy, execution and required hand eye coordination, teamwork to the likes of having complete heal rotations for really difficult raids.

I say this as a huge fan of EQ and someone with over 2 complete years time elapsed while in game playing, but there is a very real disconnect between difficulty and tedious busywork.

I really don't see how you can say that none of that adds to difficulty. All of them individually and as a whole make achieving your goals more difficult. I don't see why difficulty can be measured only in the required level of dexterity or timing perfection.
 

eastmen

Banned
I hope this is good , I haven't really enjoyed a MMORPG since UO and then EQ even though EQ was a bit more of a theme park than UO.

I hope this is really good
 

Cipherr

Member
I hear them saying interesting stuff, but unfortunately I cannot bring myself to believe them. Sadly every game and every company promises this shit each time, and then what we end up with is a big fat nothing.


Probably like Guild Wars 2.

Dear god, lets hope not. But you are right, it sounds a lot like all the promises GW2 made, but in practice I fucking loathe that game. The combat system is atrocious and boring.
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
I'm am quite curious to see if this really is going to be something new and interesting, or just the same MMO stuff as always...

I'm an outsider though. Admittedly.
 
I really don't see how you can say that none of that adds to difficulty. All of them individually and as a whole make achieving your goals more difficult. I don't see why difficulty can be measured only in the required level of dexterity or timing perfection.

They are adding time between you and your goal without making the goal itself any harder. It's not difficult to run back to your body or get a 96% rez it just takes time. It isn't hard to recover from being trained, it just takes time. It isn't hard to slowly sneak around aggro mobs, it just takes time.

If my goal is to go from level 50 to 55 then all of this stuff isn't making that any harder, its just making it take longer. Every single monster you fight to move your exp bar towards that goal is going to be exactly as difficult as it will be with or without all that stuff.

Time invested isn't equal to difficulty, it may make your progression "harder" but its in a very different way then if there was a fight or obstacle you were having trouble overcoming. One takes reviewing strategy and tactics, sharpening your reflexes and playstyle, improving your teamwork and not making mistakes and the other just requires you to spend more time doing the same things you were already doing.

I'm not arguing for less difficulty in MMOs, I am just saying that there hasn't really been any difficulty lost in the leveling department between old and modern MMOs because there wasn't really any to begin with which doesn't automatically have to be a bad thing. The leveling progress is built to be won, endgame content is built to be overcome.

Once you got to your camping spot in EQ there wasn't anything hard about any of the monsters you were pulling to level on, it was just repetition given there wasn't a train or something to come along that was completely out of your control to set your progress back.
 
D

Deleted member 17706

Unconfirmed Member
They are adding time between you and your goal without making the goal itself any harder. It's not difficult to run back to your body or get a 96% rez it just takes time. It isn't hard to recover from being trained, it just takes time. It isn't hard to slowly sneak around aggro mobs, it just takes time.

If my goal is to go from level 50 to 55 then all of this stuff isn't making that any harder, its just making it take longer. Every single monster you fight to move your exp bar towards that goal is going to be exactly as difficult as it will be with or without all that stuff.

Time invested isn't equal to difficulty, it may make your progression "harder" but its in a very different way then if there was a fight or obstacle you were having trouble overcoming. One takes reviewing strategy and tactics, sharpening your reflexes and playstyle, improving your teamwork and not making mistakes and the other just requires you to spend more time doing the same things you were already doing.

I'm not arguing for less difficulty in MMOs, I am just saying that there hasn't really been any difficulty lost in the leveling department between old and modern MMOs because there wasn't really any to begin with which doesn't automatically have to be a bad thing. The leveling progress is built to be won, endgame content is built to be overcome.

Once you got to your camping spot in EQ there wasn't anything hard about any of the monsters you were pulling to level on, it was just repetition given there wasn't a train or something to come along that was completely out of your control to set your progress back.

They do make it harder. We may just be getting into semantics here, but all of those elements you seem to have hated so much did very much affect the player's experience and make it harder for them to achieve their goals in a timely fashion. I'm going to call that difficulty or "challenge."

It often was difficult to get back to your corpse and find a 96% res. You didn't play EverQuest if you claim it was always a simple thing. Maybe you had tons of connections later in your EQ life, but for people without a ton of friends online to help them out, a corpse run could be a pretty daunting ordeal. It wasn't just meaningless time consumption, either. It could often turn into a bit of an adventure where you get help from someone who would then become your friend for years and years.

It is hard to sneak around mobs. You need to know where to go and exactly how to do it. If you don't know that stuff, you will get aggro and possibly die, leading back to the above. It's a risk.

You say that every single monster you fight is the exact same difficulty without all of the peripheral stuff, but that's only true if you somehow fight those mobs in a vacuum, which you do not. It's all of the peripheral stuff that helped to make the world of EverQuest more interesting and alive. You could be trained and slaughtered in an instant, and that would be a serious setback in EQ. In WoW (if training were possible), it would be a much lighter set back. You wouldn't care in WoW, but in EverQuest, you'd probably be more careful in the future--maybe choose a different spot to pull to, or have a different spell ready just in case that unexpected train came.

Time invested is directly related to difficulty. It's not like the time consuming penalties in EverQuest were just empty blocks of time you had to spend waiting, as if you're in some Zynga "game" watching your energy bars refill. It all added to the risk of the encounter. The penalties could be quite heavy, so you played more carefully, you had incentive to get better because you couldn't just brute force your way through. You cared about dying. If you knew you'd just respawn with all of your gear intact and an insignificant monetary penalty, you'd try all sorts of reckless things that you wouldn't in a game like old EverQuest.

You say that camping a spot in EverQuest was just repetition--and some of the time it may have been when you had a good group that operated like a well oiled machine, but that often wasn't the case, and it was because of a lot of those peripheral elements mentioned above. That's also completely ignoring all of the social interaction that's had during a camp session like that.

I've seen opinions like yours ever since right around the time WoW launched (maybe even earlier). You tend to equate anything that takes time as "tedium." I just can't be bothered to pay heed anymore. It seems like in your perfect world, MMORPGs would be nothing but boss encounters where everyone starts at max level in the best possible gear. The only challenge would be through sheer mechanics. I mean, after all, what is leveling to you but a meaninglessly time-consuming task? Yeah, what you're looking for is a competitive online game. Maybe Counter-Strike, StarCraft, or DOTA would better serve your tastes.
 
They do make it harder. We may just be getting into semantics here, but all of those elements you seem to have hated so much did very much affect the player's experience and make it harder for them to achieve their goals in a timely fashion. I'm going to call that difficulty or "challenge."

It often was difficult to get back to your corpse and find a 96% res. You didn't play EverQuest if you claim it was always a simple thing. Maybe you had tons of connections later in your EQ life, but for people without a ton of friends online to help them out, a corpse run could be a pretty daunting ordeal. It wasn't just meaningless time consumption, either. It could often turn into a bit of an adventure where you get help from someone who would then become your friend for years and years.

It is hard to sneak around mobs. You need to know where to go and exactly how to do it. If you don't know that stuff, you will get aggro and possibly die, leading back to the above. It's a risk.

You say that every single monster you fight is the exact same difficulty without all of the peripheral stuff, but that's only true if you somehow fight those mobs in a vacuum, which you do not. It's all of the peripheral stuff that helped to make the world of EverQuest more interesting and alive. You could be trained and slaughtered in an instant, and that would be a serious setback in EQ. In WoW (if training were possible), it would be a much lighter set back. You wouldn't care in WoW, but in EverQuest, you'd probably be more careful in the future--maybe choose a different spot to pull to, or have a different spell ready just in case that unexpected train came.

Time invested is directly related to difficulty. It's not like the time consuming penalties in EverQuest were just empty blocks of time you had to spend waiting, as if you're in some Zynga "game" watching your energy bars refill. It all added to the risk of the encounter. The penalties could be quite heavy, so you played more carefully, you had incentive to get better because you couldn't just brute force your way through. You cared about dying. If you knew you'd just respawn with all of your gear intact and an insignificant monetary penalty, you'd try all sorts of reckless things that you wouldn't in a game like old EverQuest.

You say that camping a spot in EverQuest was just repetition--and some of the time it may have been when you had a good group that operated like a well oiled machine, but that often wasn't the case, and it was because of a lot of those peripheral elements mentioned above. That's also completely ignoring all of the social interaction that's had during a camp session like that.

I've seen opinions like yours ever since right around the time WoW launched (maybe even earlier). You tend to equate anything that takes time as "tedium." I just can't be bothered to pay heed anymore. It seems like in your perfect world, MMORPGs would be nothing but boss encounters where everyone starts at max level in the best possible gear. The only challenge would be through sheer mechanics. I mean, after all, what is leveling to you but a meaninglessly time-consuming task? Yeah, what you're looking for is a competitive online game. Maybe Counter-Strike, StarCraft, or DOTA would better serve your tastes.

Haha jesus man, talk about condescending. First off you are arguing why you enjoyed those mechanics not why they were difficult. If you had read the many times I attempted to clarify earlier in the thread that I wasn't arguing for these things to not exist anymore or that they were bad and no fun. My stance was entirely that the article I first replied about was saying that the leveling experience in modern MMO's isn't as difficult as it was in old MMOs and I disagree with that because I have a different idea of what difficulty is.

Just because something doesn't qualify as difficult to me doesn't mean I didn't find it fun or worthwhile, I just don't like making up some weird "hardcore" difficulty for games like EQ just to judge newer games because they don't fall in line with your own personal tastes.

If anything what you posted is just more support for my point, none of that stuff you were listing is what I would count as difficult. It's time consuming and that's fine. I also had alot of fun partaking in those kinds of things but at no point did I stop and think man, this is really hard. I am all for making death important and requiring a high time investment to keep people caring about what they do but they don't directly relate to how difficult each experience point gained is. They may make you care more about each point but they were just as hard to obtain either way.

It was never hard to get a 96% rez, it just took time to find a cleric and pay them. It wasn't hard to retain my body because there were plenty of invisibility spells and you could sneak through most areas. For any you couldn't sneak through you could pay a necro to summon your body. Trains didn't make anything harder, like you said they were just a setback that took time to recover from.

It doesn't matter if you hated these things, if you loved them, if you think they added to the community and adventure or that they made you fear failing and care more. None of that has any relevance to if these things were difficult or not. I consider difficulty to be something that requires you to change the way you are playing or develop better strategies with better teamwork. Its something you need to play better(in whatever ways you can) to overcome.

Dark or Demon's souls is considered to be a difficult game because every encounter requires your attention, you need to react promptly to what it throws at you and it can kill you at a moments notice if you do not do so. It isn't considered hard because it takes 3 hours to recover fully from each death you happen to incur.
 

Stimpack

Member
The biggest difference for me was going from the most effective leveling being in a group in EQ and FFXI to solo in WoW. I honestly bought into this as the salvation of MMOs from the tedium of grinding and wasted evenings, but of course all it meant was a paradigm shift from one kind of grind to another.

As an aside, I never thought of grinding as difficult either way, but eliminating the group took a bite out of things like community and server reputations. More importantly though I think it caused a shift from the idea that you have to work with others to progress to essentially mute speedrunning. By the time people had to group to gear their characters, you were left with people who couldn't give a rat's ass that they didn't know how to play in a group.

Maybe this is a side effect that gives the illusion that the game was easier. I will say though that BRD with people who would rather not be there was a chore within a week, whereas I probably spent 6 months in Sebilis and don't even remember the grinding.

I remember pretty much everyone going from EQ to FFXI. Both were great games, in my opinion. I think that the community really shined through in both of them. Of course, back then I found that the internet had still yet to be ravaged by memes and other idiotic BS.

I feel that games like WoW really opened the floodgates to all sorts of people. People who, up until that point, thought that MMORPGs were nerdy and lame. I think that's partially to blame for the decline of community and server reputations.

That's not to mention that the games themselves really began to stagnate over the years. I feel like pretty much every MMO in recent years has been almost entirely unoriginal and boring. The whole endgame/speedrun mentality that most games (Hell, even FFXI now) have developed over the years is certainly something that I'm not too keen on.

It's the journey, man, not the destination.
 

ReaperXL7

Member
I think it would be an interesting experiment to take a large chunk of the average MMO player today, and throw them to a perfect recreation of Ultima Online in its prime. I wonder how many would be able to hang, finding a nice fat fish to slay and then take everything off their corpse was always allot of fun back then.

MMOs have gotten pretty soft when you think about how much they go out of their way to protect you from everything.
 
Haha jesus man, talk about condescending. First off you are arguing why you enjoyed those mechanics not why they were difficult. If you had read the many times I attempted to clarify earlier in the thread that I wasn't arguing for these things to not exist anymore or that they were bad and no fun. My stance was entirely that the article I first replied about was saying that the leveling experience in modern MMO's isn't as difficult as it was in old MMOs and I disagree with that because I have a different idea of what difficulty is.

Just because something doesn't qualify as difficult to me doesn't mean I didn't find it fun or worthwhile, I just don't like making up some weird "hardcore" difficulty for games like EQ just to judge newer games because they don't fall in line with your own personal tastes.

If anything what you posted is just more support for my point, none of that stuff you were listing is what I would count as difficult. It's time consuming and that's fine. I also had alot of fun partaking in those kinds of things but at no point did I stop and think man, this is really hard. I am all for making death important and requiring a high time investment to keep people caring about what they do but they don't directly relate to how difficult each experience point gained is. They may make you care more about each point but they were just as hard to obtain either way.

It was never hard to get a 96% rez, it just took time to find a cleric and pay them. It wasn't hard to retain my body because there were plenty of invisibility spells and you could sneak through most areas. For any you couldn't sneak through you could pay a necro to summon your body. Trains didn't make anything harder, like you said they were just a setback that took time to recover from.

It doesn't matter if you hated these things, if you loved them, if you think they added to the community and adventure or that they made you fear failing and care more. None of that has any relevance to if these things were difficult or not. I consider difficulty to be something that requires you to change the way you are playing or develop better strategies with better teamwork. Its something you need to play better(in whatever ways you can) to overcome.

Dark or Demon's souls is considered to be a difficult game because every encounter requires your attention, you need to react promptly to what it throws at you and it can kill you at a moments notice if you do not do so. It isn't considered hard because it takes 3 hours to recover fully from each death you happen to incur.

You must have played a later version of Everquest. When I played, there were hardly any level 49 clerics to do a "full" resurrection, and they were in such high demand that they would be deep in solb or lguk anyway. Most of the time, you had to settle for a lower %.

And in a lot of places there were a mix of living and undead monsters, or see invis monsters, and one type of invis wouldn't help you enough. You could get both kinds on if you and someone else cast at the same time, though I think they later removed this ability. And invis could fade at any time with a warning of a few seconds, often stranding or killing you (if you didn't have Gate or Feign Death, and occasionally even if you did).

There were plenty of "skill" elements in Everquest, and players who knew all the little tricks could be FAR more successful than the average player. The average group of 6, when I was playing, had trouble with the very bottom of the lguk dead side, often wiping while trying to "break" the frenzy/archmage/lord/hand spawns (this was before it was camped 24/7). We did it with 2: a cleric and a monk, got tons of yaks and SMRs and such before most of the top players even knew they existed. (There was some slight outrage when my necromancer had a pet dual wielding yaks when they were the most valuable item on the server, killing everything effortlessly while I just stayed FD - this was before they made the pet suicide on FD.) You had to know aggro range perfectly, which monsters could see through invis, what the spawn timer was on all the spawns and how much time was left on them at any given time; you had to be able to use your abilities to their maximum, to use line of sight blocking effectively, to time your casts perfectly (heals, DoTs, etc. - remember, there was originally no notification that a DoT had worn off), to watch the flood of text for cues on when to bash and interrupt casting, to cure nasty poisons, to call for evac if a caster mob Gated, to type/follow complex instructions in the heat of battle before voice chat was a thing.

But there are few things in video gaming that felt as satisfying as stuff like 2-man fire giants or being the group that holds off a legendary train. Maybe dropping out of a Galaxy into a hot base in Planetside.

I doubt very much that anyone can bring back the "glory days" of Everquest, since the genre was fairly new, people played them differently than they do now, people are jaded, and the investments to build them are so large that you can't really cater to niche audiences.
 

Apath

Member
I would say having to find your body with no indicator and having to regain your XP is more difficult than having a paper trail to your body and not losing any XP, but that's just me I guess. You seem so transfixed on this distinction between tedious and difficult that you begin to lose sight of the circumstance. Difficulty can manifest itself in countless different ways, including tedium. Though a zone being prone to training doesn't really sound like tedium to me, because if that's the case, anything can be argued as tedium rather than difficulty.

And anyone looking to experience classic (well, pre-Luclin) Everquest should check out Project 1999.
 
You must have played a later version of Everquest. When I played, there were hardly any level 49 clerics to do a "full" resurrection, and they were in such high demand that they would be deep in solb or lguk anyway. Most of the time, you had to settle for a lower %.

And in a lot of places there were a mix of living and undead monsters, or see invis monsters, and one type of invis wouldn't help you enough. You could get both kinds on if you and someone else cast at the same time, though I think they later removed this ability. And invis could fade at any time with a warning of a few seconds, often stranding or killing you (if you didn't have Gate or Feign Death, and occasionally even if you did).

There were plenty of "skill" elements in Everquest, and players who knew all the little tricks could be FAR more successful than the average player. The average group of 6, when I was playing, had trouble with the very bottom of the lguk dead side, often wiping while trying to "break" the frenzy/archmage/lord/hand spawns (this was before it was camped 24/7). We did it with 2: a cleric and a monk, got tons of yaks and SMRs and such before most of the top players even knew they existed. (There was some slight outrage when my necromancer had a pet dual wielding yaks when they were the most valuable item on the server, killing everything effortlessly while I just stayed FD - this was before they made the pet suicide on FD.) You had to know aggro range perfectly, which monsters could see through invis, what the spawn timer was on all the spawns and how much time was left on them at any given time; you had to be able to use your abilities to their maximum, to use line of sight blocking effectively, to time your casts perfectly (heals, DoTs, etc. - remember, there was originally no notification that a DoT had worn off), to watch the flood of text for cues on when to bash and interrupt casting, to cure nasty poisons, to call for evac if a caster mob Gated, to type/follow complex instructions in the heat of battle before voice chat was a thing.

But there are few things in video gaming that felt as satisfying as stuff like 2-man fire giants or being the group that holds off a legendary train. Maybe dropping out of a Galaxy into a hot base in Planetside.

I doubt very much that anyone can bring back the "glory days" of Everquest, since the genre was fairly new, people played them differently than they do now, people are jaded, and the investments to build them are so large that you can't really cater to niche audiences.

Played EQ from a bit before initial launch all the way up through Secrets of Faydwer I think was the final exspansion I bought. The Serpents Spine exspansion was probably the last one I would really consider myself actively playing though.

I'm not trying to say that there weren't countless ways to get ahead of other more average players or that there wasn't anything that required skill. I just don't really agree with the notion that the actual leveling itself was any harder in the old MMO's like EQ than any other modern MMO. There were countless other mechanics running tandem to the actual exp gain process that could be annoying and or set your progress back but they didn't make the actual act of gaining exp any more difficult.

I don't know maybe my experience was different from other peoples or something because outside of the very initial time period when no one was high enough to have the higher rez spells yet I never had any issues getting rezzed. There was always someone i knew to come rez me or someone in my guild to do it. Corpse runs were very easy as well when I had necros to summon or monks and necros to drag the corpse to a safe area. I wasn't so totally reckless to die somewhere where it would be next to impossible to retrieve my body without having a contingency plan in place though.

Even then I still cant bring myself to find those kinds of mechanics difficult because I never had the slightest trouble with them. There were some times when I found them annoying and some times I would have rather not had to deal with them but never did I actually find they made my experience playing the game more difficult.

On the invis and sneaking front I was a Ranger so I could cast my own invis spells and I got speed spells fairly early on so to not die every time my invis dropped. At the lower levels I kept my sneak skill as high as i could manage which helped alot. Undead were pretty easy to spot from far enough away to avoid them and Conning anything else would tell you if they saw invis until you managed to remember where that stuff was.

I guess I would say that there were plenty of ways to use your skill as a player to make things far more convenient for yourselves but it wasn't required because the actual combat itself was incredibly easy while leveling. None of the mechanics that were there to hamper player convenience managed to make the actual combat more difficult which is where the vast majority of your time leveling was spent.
 

KKRT00

Member
Dear god, lets hope not. But you are right, it sounds a lot like all the promises GW2 made, but in practice I fucking loathe that game. The combat system is atrocious and boring.

Thief, Mesmer and Elementalist are amazing, very good pace and very diverse. But i would love many changes to GW 2 combat systems, for example boons and effects are on too low cooldowns, also would like to have at least twice as much abilities in the end :)
Traits system in GW 2 is amazing though, but it needs to be described better in EQN, the description of passives is atrocious at best in GW 2 :p

What i dont want near this game is WoW/RIFT combat system, the worst combat system in any MMO i've played.
 
Played EQ from a bit before initial launch all the way up through Secrets of Faydwer I think was the final exspansion I bought. The Serpents Spine exspansion was probably the last one I would really consider myself actively playing though.

I'm not trying to say that there weren't countless ways to get ahead of other more average players or that there wasn't anything that required skill. I just don't really agree with the notion that the actual leveling itself was any harder in the old MMO's like EQ than any other modern MMO. There were countless other mechanics running tandem to the actual exp gain process that could be annoying and or set your progress back but they didn't make the actual act of gaining exp any more difficult.

I don't know maybe my experience was different from other peoples or something because outside of the very initial time period when no one was high enough to have the higher rez spells yet I never had any issues getting rezzed. There was always someone i knew to come rez me or someone in my guild to do it. Corpse runs were very easy as well when I had necros to summon or monks and necros to drag the corpse to a safe area. I wasn't so totally reckless to die somewhere where it would be next to impossible to retrieve my body without having a contingency plan in place though.

Even then I still cant bring myself to find those kinds of mechanics difficult because I never had the slightest trouble with them. There were some times when I found them annoying and some times I would have rather not had to deal with them but never did I actually find they made my experience playing the game more difficult.

On the invis and sneaking front I was a Ranger so I could cast my own invis spells and I got speed spells fairly early on so to not die every time my invis dropped. At the lower levels I kept my sneak skill as high as i could manage which helped alot. Undead were pretty easy to spot from far enough away to avoid them and Conning anything else would tell you if they saw invis until you managed to remember where that stuff was.

I guess I would say that there were plenty of ways to use your skill as a player to make things far more convenient for yourselves but it wasn't required because the actual combat itself was incredibly easy while leveling. None of the mechanics that were there to hamper player convenience managed to make the actual combat more difficult which is where the vast majority of your time leveling was spent.

Getting exp was a lot harder. First, there was the basic leveling rate. It was far slower. I played obsessively the first week, dozens of hours, and got to like level 9. The sheer number of hours needed to gain a level puts today's MMOs to shame, except perhaps for some super-hardcore Korean stuff. Part of that is because of how long the battles were, much more "auto attack and wait" and gradual depletion of health bars, especially at early levels.

Next, there was the difficulty of enemies essentially forcing you to group to level efficiently, as xp loss on death (talk about a different era) was hours' worth. And just looking for a group could take hours if you were say, a ranger, and didn't have a large guild with members around your level with room for you (and this is one reason EVERYONE joined a guild - it was so hard to get by without one).

Xp from quests was negligible, and quests weren't all that common anyway. Traveling took ages. Meditating with the damn spell book in your face took ages. So much down time.

Mobs weren't organized into nice discrete encounters; they were messily clumped in ways that could give crowd control-less groups (which were very common for the first year, at least, because crowd control classes were not popular) fits, and in open areas, they wandered along a complex combination of paths, often resulting in "adds" that were difficult to avoid. Soloing and got an add? You're usually screwed, without SoW or some form of crowd control. And escaping from combat for many classes was not really a viable option: if you were losing the fight, you were going to die. Remember the walk of shame when you'd lose AGI at low health?

Meaningful item upgrades were very difficult to get, aside from basic crafted stuff, like banded mail.

Organization was extremely difficult with the lack of social tools that we take for granted today.

Hybrids (ranger, sk, paladin) for the longest time had a 40% xp penalty for no stated reason other than their popularity, and some races (Trolls, Ogres, maybe others, I forget) had their own penalty as well.

Summon Corpse wasn't even in the game, initially. If I recall, that was added with the Splitpaw zone in response to players upset over silly things like months of work lost when they, naked and mostly helpless, weren't able to recover their corpses within 7 days, and all their items poofed.

And corpse runs...bound in a city (as all non-casters had to be), and having to spend 30 minutes running back to your body? Brutal. Especially if you, now naked and helpless, got killed again on the way. And corpse poofed after 30 mins because it was empty, making rez impossible.

Yeah, I'd say leveling was more difficult.
 
Getting exp was a lot harder. First, there was the basic leveling rate. It was far slower. I played obsessively the first week, dozens of hours, and got to like level 9. The sheer number of hours needed to gain a level puts today's MMOs to shame, except perhaps for some super-hardcore Korean stuff. Part of that is because of how long the battles were, much more "auto attack and wait" and gradual depletion of health bars, especially at early levels.

Next, there was the difficulty of enemies essentially forcing you to group to level efficiently, as xp loss on death (talk about a different era) was hours' worth. And just looking for a group could take hours if you were say, a ranger, and didn't have a large guild with members around your level with room for you (and this is one reason EVERYONE joined a guild - it was so hard to get by without one).

Xp from quests was negligible, and quests weren't all that common anyway. Traveling took ages. Meditating with the damn spell book in your face took ages. So much down time.

Mobs weren't organized into nice discrete encounters; they were messily clumped in ways that could give crowd control-less groups (which were very common for the first year, at least, because crowd control classes were not popular) fits, and in open areas, they wandered along a complex combination of paths, often resulting in "adds" that were difficult to avoid. Soloing and got an add? You're usually screwed, without SoW or some form or crowd control. And escaping from combat for many classes was not really a viable option: if you were losing the fight, you were going to die. Remember the walk of shame when you'd lose AGI at low health?

Meaningful item upgrades were very difficult to get, aside from basic crafted stuff, like banded mail.

Organization was extremely difficult with the lack of social tools that we take for granted today.

Hybrids (ranger, sk, paladin) for the longest time had a 40% xp penalty for no stated reason other than their popularity, and some races (Trolls, Ogres, maybe others, I forget) had their own penalty as well.

Summon Corpse wasn't even in the game, initially. If I recall, that was added with the Splitpaw zone in response to players upset over silly things like months of work lost when they, naked and mostly helpless, weren't able to recover their corpses, and all their items poofed.

Yeah, I'd say leveling was more difficult.

Those were alot of the same kinds of points I was making earlier in the thread. I just don't consider that kind of stuff to be difficulty because its not actually hard to handle most of those things it just takes a ton of time.

I suppose I classify difficulty in progressing and difficulty in what you are doing to progress to be two different things. It was hard to progress because everything took a long time. It wasn't hard to recoup lost exp it just took alot of time grinding away. Forming a group wasn't actually hard, it just took alot of time looking for members.

My point of contention with the article that started all this was that he made it sound like the moment to moment game play of modern MMO's is casual and far to easy compared to old MMO's but the moment to moment game play in Everquest once you were with your group at your camp spot was just as easy and that's where you spend the vast majority of your time while actively leveling. Everquest shined once you were further along and able to do more endgame focused stuff and that was when the actual direct game play related difficulty started to really kick in. Even a considerable amount before max level you could do endgame types of stuff that was really hard like getting to and killing various bosses that dropped good items and that is stuff I would consider difficult but the actual process of leveling never felt difficult to me.
 
Those were alot of the same kinds of points I was making earlier in the thread. I just don't consider that kind of stuff to be difficulty because its not actually hard to handle most of those things it just takes a ton of time.

I suppose I classify difficulty in progressing and difficulty in what you are doing to progress to be two different things. It was hard to progress because everything took a long time. It wasn't hard to recoup lost exp it just took alot of time grinding away. Forming a group wasn't actually hard, it just took alot of time looking for members.

My point of contention with the article that started all this was that he made it sound like the moment to moment game play of modern MMO's is casual and far to easy compared to old MMO's but the moment to moment game play in Everquest once you were with your group at your camp spot was just as easy and that's where you spend the vast majority of your time while actively leveling. Everquest shined once you were further along and able to do more endgame focused stuff and that was when the actual direct game play related difficulty started to really kick in. Even a considerable amount before max level you could do endgame types of stuff that was really hard like getting to and killing various bosses that dropped good items and that is stuff I would consider difficult but the actual process of leveling never felt difficult to me.

But it wasn't just time. It was recovering your body - with nothing equipped, dodging monsters and straining to see past the clipping plane in dark, fog, and rain. Time consuming, yes, but also far more difficult and stressful than anything analogous in WoW. It was the constant effort of finding groups and the long stretches you'd force yourself to play once you had a good group, the traveling across multiple dangerous zones to meet up with a group.

Once you'd gotten the group, gotten to the camp site, and broken it, then sure, it was easy in most cases - boring, even. But that was only one facet of leveling.
 
But it wasn't just time. It was recovering your body - with nothing equipped, dodging monsters and straining to see past the clipping plane in dark, fog, and rain. Time consuming, yes, but also far more difficult and stressful than anything analogous in WoW. It was the constant effort of finding groups and the long stretches you'd force yourself to play once you had a good group, the traveling across multiple dangerous zones to meet up with a group.

Once you'd gotten the group, gotten to the camp site, and broken it, then sure, it was easy in most cases - boring, even. But that was only one facet of leveling.

I don't know, maybe I am in a position where I cant fully relate to other peoples experiences because my own don't align. I never had any trouble with recovering my body or avoiding dangerous aggro, if anything the majority of my frustrations came from being trained which was in most cases totally unavoidable and simply required you to get to hoofing it back.

Due to my own experiences when someone compares the difficulty of Everquest to modern MMO's I suppose different things instantly pop into my mind compared to alot of other people. I think of the stuff directly related to the combat and that part of Everquest while leveling was painfully easy which is still the way it is with modern MMOs. Although just from discussing these kinds of things on here it just serves to remind me that I would prefer not to bring alot of those things back from EQ1 for the next Everquest game. At least not in the same form they were in before.
 
If it isn't first person, it isn't EverQuest.

All these MMOs since then have catered to 3rd person, and it ruins the immersion of being the character running through this amazing world. None of them have done a 1st person view justice. EQ needs to stand out, it needs to be different, and it needs to respect its roots. Make me want to play in 1st person again, please.

I have to believe there's still room in the genre for a hardcore niche game done in a reasonable way with compelling features to draw those dedicated few in. If they don't shoot for the stars and have a reasonable budget with a killer art style they can be a success. Think the Eve Online of the fantasy MMO genre.

Whatever they do, there's one thing that's absolutely integral... NO INSTANCES. Instanced content ruined everything fun about MMOs and the community they foster.

Ahh man, the more I think and read about the good old days of EQ1 the more things I want them to return to.

Shit sorry, just saw those Smedley tweets... damn those push all the right buttons and get me a bit giddy.

Funny you mention that. I thought LDoN was the neatest thing I'd ever heard of for about a month, and then the new expansion smell wore off. I appreciated what they were trying to do, but in hindsight that's when I started to get tired of the game. Was that before or after PoP?

I hear them saying interesting stuff, but unfortunately I cannot bring myself to believe them. Sadly every game and every company promises this shit each time, and then what we end up with is a big fat nothing.

Dear god, lets hope not. But you are right, it sounds a lot like all the promises GW2 made, but in practice I fucking loathe that game. The combat system is atrocious and boring.

I'd call you Captain Buzzkill, except I share basically all of these fears and sentiments.
 
My wishlist and things needed to make me come back:

Boats, no fast travel. (made the world feel alive)
Classes with ability to TP to specific areas. (made you have to communicate and barter)
Feign Death pulling / Enchanter and Bard charming. (best way to reward skilled groups)
No instances. NONE
More buffs like Spirit of Wolf - no mounts.
Same dying penalty while keeping clerics with Res. (maaaybe increase the exp regained at early levels)

I think that covers it.
 

Staab

Member
My wishlist and things needed to make me come back:

Boats, no fast travel. (made the world feel alive)
Classes with ability to TP to specific areas. (made you have to communicate and barter)
Feign Death pulling / Enchanter and Bard charming. (best way to reward skilled groups)
No instances. NONE
More buffs like Spirit of Wolf - no mounts.
Same dying penalty while keeping clerics with Res. (maaaybe increase the exp regained at early levels)

I think that covers it.
While that is a great list and a good start...

BRING BACK REAL TWINKING AND BUFFS, jfc, throw away all this 100% no drop soulbound crap, make me able to actually turn a secondary character into a BADASS again, I've fucking earned it by reaching level 60 after 150days of played :p

Fungis, Proc weapons and unique gear was sooooooooooooooooooo enticing, I can't stand this random number generator loot and iLVL bullshit.
 

Azzurri

Member
I hope they stray away from classes and use skill ups, just like UO and the old SWG. Or even if they did, do it the FFXI way.
 
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