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[Gaz_RB]

If anyone is interested in more examples of her ideal female characters, give this a read: Five Feminists Moments In The History Of Video Games, by Anita Sarkeesian and Caroline Petit.

Thanks, I was looking for more examples.

Like others have said, I'm enjoying the shift to spotlighting more positive examples in the medium. Seeing all the negative examples was getting depressing :/

 

[Neoriceisgood]

(little fighting, emotional, puzzle-based),

Aren't gameplay elements in a lot of ways part of what "makes a character" ?

If there's enough internal cohesion in a game the actions you're allowed to take & how you take them become intergral to the game's character & characters.

I'd say it's probably one of the most unique elements games as an interactive medium can give to characters that other media generally can't, tying the feel/nature of a character to gameplay.

To sum up my feelings in an image:

 

[DragonGirl]

For all of the people saying they don't understand why The Scythian was chosen as a positive portrayal because she's barely a character at all and many didn't even realize she was a women is kinda the point.

Far too often, it seems like "we" need an excuse to make a character female. This character needs to be female to serve this purpose for a male character. This character needs to be female because we want to invoke stereotypically female emotions to go along with our theme. This character needs to be female because we're going for sex appeal. Everything else? Well, default to male of course because male experiences are universal and can be appreciated by everyone. Anita directly makes this point in her video, we need to stop defaulting to male to tell a universal tale. We need to stop using female characters when we only want to portray a specific type of character or elicit a specific reaction. I personally refer to this phenomenon as Star Trek Alien syndrome.

Female characters are too often treated like classic Star Trek Aliens. Humans have a full spectrum of personality traits, emotions, and motivations, including logic or aggressive honor. Vulcuns only get to be logical. Klingons only get to be honorable warriors. Vulcuns and Klingons are like humans who are only allowed to express a narrow sliver of the human spectrum of potential. Women as characters are too often treated the same way. They aren't humans. They are Femaliens from the Star Trek universe.

One way to combat these sorts of portrayals is to erase the tendency for male as default when gender is utterly irrelevant. We need more casually female characters. Not female because they needed to be, not female because "we" want to put them on a pedestal and say "see?! I'm being progressive!. Just, female because roughly half of all humans are in fact female and yes, women do stuff.

 

[slavesnyder]

I actually had no idea the main character in that game was a woman. At least I don't remember noticing it (kind of like in the first Metroid, I guess). Perhaps I wasn't paying enough attention.

Same here. Thank you for admitting it. I feel better now.

 

[HeelPower]

I wonder if she'll mention the Souls games.

You can create a female character and she can be 100% as competent in terms of gameplay and story.It should count as good portrayal.

 

[chaobreaker]

I dont get why this is a positive female char, I mean the char is basically nothing/neutral.

I think that's the point Anita is trying to make.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

I wonder if she'll mention the Souls games.

You can create a female character and she can be 100% as competent in terms of gameplay and story.It should count as good portrayal.

Did you even watch the video? Honest question.

 

[pants]

I wonder if she'll mention the Souls games.

You can create a female character and she can be 100% as competent in terms of gameplay and story.It should count as good portrayal.

Eh, create a chars shouldn't really count I dont think. Nor should gender swap options like Mass Effect.

 

[Hugstable]

I don't see how "blank slate" characters can't be good, aren't they some of the most common winners of GameFAQ character polls?

I haven't been on Gamefaqs in ages, but isn't that stuff always a contest between Link, Sephiroth and the L-Block?


Really enjoyed the video, probably gonna check out the game. Never really heard of it before, hope it's availible for andriod

 

[Tizoc]

I nreally need to play that game I got among my first Steam bundle purchases heh. Looking forward to more vids.

 

[GeoGonzo]

[...]We need more casually female characters. [...]

Good post. This line is great.

 

[Ryuzaki07]

I wonder if DA:I will be in this?

I think it's the first big RPG I've played where I realized out of the 5 people in the room planning a mission strategy, 4 were female characters (including my own).

Or does it just include default/main/games without custom characters only?

Great example of pandering, as I doubt any of these characters were particularly well written.

 

[Kinyou]

Yeah, I agree with you on that. I actually didn't even finish the game because of how minimal it was. While the art/music was ok, it didn't keep me invested.

Yeah, if the artstyle and music isn't enough to draw you in then there isn't much reason to keep going.

I think that's the point Anita is trying to make.

But doesn't that fall into the "Men with boobs" trope? She hasn't really elaborated on that trope yet, but that's how most seem to understand that term. A character that can only be classified as female through the fact that she has boobs.

 

[WiiRevolution1]

The main character from that game is a girl? Sorry, I can't watch the video right now but I always assumed it was a guy.

Me too. I mean its called Superbrothers wat. Finding out its a girl just makes me want to buy the game now lol.

 

[Ryuzaki07]

For all of the people saying they don't understand why The Scythian was chosen as a positive portrayal because she's barely a character at all and many didn't even realize she was a women is kinda the point.

Far too often, it seems like "we" need an excuse to make a character female. This character needs to be female to serve this purpose for a male character. This character needs to be female because we want to invoke stereotypically female emotions to go along with our theme. This character needs to be female because we're going for sex appeal. Everything else? Well, default to male of course because male experiences are universal and can be appreciated by everyone. Anita directly makes this point in her video, we need to stop defaulting to male to tell a universal tale. We need to stop using female characters when we only want to portray a specific type of character or elicit a specific reaction. I personally refer to this phenomenon as Star Trek Alien syndrome.

Female characters are too often treated like classic Star Trek Aliens. Humans have a full spectrum of personality traits, emotions, and motivations, including logic or aggressive honor. Vulcuns only get to be logical. Klingons only get to be honorable warriors. Vulcuns and Klingons are like humans who are only allowed to express a narrow sliver of the human spectrum of potential. Women as characters are too often treated the same way. They aren't humans. They are Femaliens from the Star Trek universe.

One way to combat these sorts of portrayals is to erase the tendency for male as default when gender is utterly irrelevant. We need more casually female characters. Not female because they needed to be, not female because "we" want to put them on a pedestal and say "see?! I'm being progressive!. Just, female because roughly half of all humans are in fact female and yes, women do stuff.

You dont get it. The fact that many people didnt even know what gender the character in question is isnt due to it being neutral, just badly characterized. A shallow character who just happens to be female does not a good female character make.

 

[liliththepale]

But doesn't that fall into the "Men with boobs" trope? She hasn't really elaborated on that trope yet, but that's how most seem to understand that term. A character that can only be classified as female through the fact that she has boobs.

No, because the default shouldn't be male to begin with.

 

[LevelNth]

The main character from that game is a girl? Sorry, I can't watch the video right now but I always assumed it was a guy.

Same. I thought the video was originally about the girl that lived in the hut. My world is blown?

 

[ArjanN]

I 100%ed the game on Steam and I didn't realize the main character was supposed to be female.

The main character is basically just a stick figure with no real dialogue.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Chel from portal in the opening and The scythian character.

Not sure how there is anything impressive about these female portrayals.They could just as well be male and it wouldn't make a difference.

Maybe that's what she considers a good portrayal ?

Once again: how about you watch the video? She explains why quite clearly.

For all of the people saying they don't understand why The Scythian was chosen as a positive portrayal because she's barely a character at all and many didn't even realize she was a women is kinda the point.

Far too often, it seems like "we" need an excuse to make a character female. This character needs to be female to serve this purpose for a male character. This character needs to be female because we want to invoke stereotypically female emotions to go along with our theme. This character needs to be female because we're going for sex appeal. Everything else? Well, default to male of course because male experiences are universal and can be appreciated by everyone. Anita directly makes this point in her video, we need to stop defaulting to male to tell a universal tale. We need to stop using female characters when we only want to portray a specific type of character or elicit a specific reaction. I personally refer to this phenomenon as Star Trek Alien syndrome.

Female characters are too often treated like classic Star Trek Aliens. Humans have a full spectrum of personality traits, emotions, and motivations, including logic or aggressive honor. Vulcuns only get to be logical. Klingons only get to be honorable warriors. Vulcuns and Klingons are like humans who are only allowed to express a narrow sliver of the human spectrum of potential. Women as characters are too often treated the same way. They aren't humans. They are Femaliens from the Star Trek universe.

One way to combat these sorts of portrayals is to erase the tendency for male as default when gender is utterly irrelevant. We need more casually female characters. Not female because they needed to be, not female because "we" want to put them on a pedestal and say "see?! I'm being progressive!. Just, female because roughly half of all humans are in fact female and yes, women do stuff.

Indeed. Also known as the Smurfette principle. She did a video on that, titled "Ms. Male Character".

 

[Nerokis]

Great example of pandering, as I doubt any of these characters were particularly well written.

Not every poorly written character is inherently there to pander, and surely you need a more solid foundation than "doubt" before you decide that's the case in DA:I. Seriously, I'd say it's pretty cool to see a scenario where the majority of leadership roles are filled by women, so it's amazing you so abruptly leapt to this "great example of pandering" thing based on so little.

 

[Ryuzaki07]

No, because the default shouldn't be male to begin with.

What should the default be?

Am I wrong to assume that a game called "swords and sorcery" is gonna feature a female protagonist? Because you know, people are going to assume either, because it makes absolutely no sense not to assume.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

But doesn't that fall into the "Men with boobs" trope? She hasn't really elaborated on that trope yet, but that's how most seem to understand that term. A character that can only be classified as female through the fact that she has boobs.

No. The default gender for a "neutral" character isn't male, and that's exactly the point of that video.

Guys, it's 7 minutes long.

 

[The Technomancer]

But doesn't that fall into the "Men with boobs" trope? She hasn't really elaborated on that trope yet, but that's how most seem to understand that term. A character that can only be classified as female through the fact that she has boobs.

Sort of but not really. I believe man with boobs, as she approaches it, is more about characters who are arch typically masculine in demeanor and behavior who have boobs

 

[Jumplion]

Chel from portal in the opening and The scythian character.

Not sure how there is anything impressive about these female portrayals.They could just as well be male and it wouldn't make a difference.

Maybe that's what she considers a good portrayal ?

And in most games they would be male. That's what makes those particular characters stand out to many people. The fact that in most games the main character's gender doesn't matter, yet a vast majority of them are male practically by default (and in a few instances, imposed on developers by publishers as we've seen from Remember Me) is really a strange phenomenon when you think about it.

Character's genders can certainly matter for certain stories. But they don't always have to. And the fact that they don't always have to, yet we have people just flat out assuming that a character like The Scythian is male, shows us how ingrained this idea of male being a "default" trait for a character really is.

 

[chaobreaker]

Yeah, if the artstyle and music isn't enough to draw you in then there isn't much reason to keep going.


But doesn't that fall into the "Men with boobs" trope? She hasn't really elaborated on that trope yet, but that's how most seem to understand that term. A character that can only be classified as female through the fact that she has boobs.

I feel sorry for those individuals.

 

[backlot]

What should the default be?

Am I wrong to assume that a game called "swords and sorcery" is gonna feature a female protagonist? Because you know, people are going to assume either, because it makes absolutely no sense not to assume.

You probably shouldn't be assuming anything.

 

[BeatResetsTheWorld]

Because we rarely see female characters in games just be neutral. Usually they're eyecandy or deliberate attempts at "strawng indepedant womayun" or characters where them being a woman is their whole point (which isn't necessarily bad, per se, but leaves something to be desired).

Like Sarkeesian mentioned in the video, and exemplified by the fact that several people in this very thread just straight up assumed that The Scythian was male, we tend to think of a character's gender as male by default. The fact that some people here are going "is this really a positive portrayal of a female character? Her gender doesn't matter!" is evident of the fact that her gender does matter to some people, and only brings to question "If her gender doesn't matter, then why do people just assume she's a he? Why Don't we see more female characters in games where the gender literally doesn't matter?"

Ehh, it's still fairly weak. By this logic she should have had the Pokemon playable female playable characters as positive examples, even though no one would consider them

 

[liliththepale]

What should the default be?

Am I wrong to assume that a game called "swords and sorcery" is gonna feature a female protagonist? Because you know, people are going to assume either, because it makes absolutely no sense not to assume.

There doesn't need to be a default. Women can wield swords and be masters of sorcery.

If it's important to your story or plot that your adventurer is a male, that's fine. Make him a male. But being adventurous is not an inherently male thing, so there shouldn't be a mindset where an adventurer is male unless otherwise specified.

 

[Jumplion]

Ehh, it's still fairly weak. By this logic she should have had the Pokemon playable female playable characters as positive examples, even though no one would consider them

No one would consider them because they are customizable in a game meant to evoke customization. We are talking about whole, singular characters here. This is why nobody is complaining about Dark Souls, but people are clamoring for more games that just straight up have a female protagonist because, well, why the fuck not?

 

[HeelPower]

And in most games they would be male. That's what makes those particular characters stand out to many people. The fact that in most games the main character's gender doesn't matter, yet a vast majority of them are male practically by default (and in a few instances, imposed on developers by publishers as we've seen from Remember Me).

Character's genders can certainly matter for certain stories. But they don't always have to. And the fact that they don't always have to, yet we have people just flat out assuming that a character like The Scythian is male, shows us how ingrained this idea of male being a "default" trait for a character really is.

Okay, interesting perspective on this issue.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I haven't been on Gamefaqs in ages, but isn't that stuff always a contest between Link, Sephiroth and the L-Block?

I'd count most of those as blank slates. (it was mostly a joke)

 

[OniBarubary]

I find this a strange choice considering the conversation that was had (by which I mean I responded to someone, passed out, then woke up and read responses but never answered again) about women displaying masculine or male characteristics not being good feminist/female characters. And even if you go the route of saying the Scythian does not display specifically masculine traits and run with the brief paragraph someone linked to where she says it shows a woman can fill a man's role in a game just as easily, then...there was nothing specific about her being a "woman" that was important in that game, she just happened to be a woman. Which...I think has been shot down before as saying a female character that doesn't display female traits that would not change the story if it was a man or a woman does not make a good female/feminist character.

I dunno, seems odd to me as I think it's at odds with opinions that she's given before.

Which is funny because I actually agree with her and think the Scythian is a great positive female character. I just am a bit confused about the criteria she is using being contrary to viewpoints she already voiced (that I happened to disagree with).

So, great choice just a bit confused.

 

[Foggy]

Should female blank-slates be more common? For sure.

If the game is good, does that make it a good female character? Not really.

Should the video have been titled Positive Female-led Games? Probably.

Does that really matter? Not really.

 

[John Rabbit]

this video is tonally very odd to me. it feels too much like a review of the game itself from the perspective of a feminist. a valid, welcome, and certainly needed point of view; but part of me feels like this video's content is partly a reaction to the criticism that Anita isn't a "real" gamer (which is preposterous). her rather pointless citing of specific game mechanics/locations/story points feels exactly that, pointless.

i suppose i understand that in presenting The Scythian as a strong female character, she's adding the context of the game itself as support for the claim. the video just feels even less analytical than the Tropes series, which itself is a pretty high-level sort of "pop" presentation of information.

maybe it's me though.

 

[Ryuzaki07]

Not every poorly written character is inherently there to pander, and surely you need a more solid foundation than "doubt" before you decide that's the case in DA:I. Seriously, I'd say it's pretty cool to see a scenario where the majority of leadership roles are filled by women, so it's amazing you so abruptly leapt to this "great example of pandering" thing based on so little.

Its not pretty cool, its just pandering if it doesnt serve a purpose. Absolutely anyone can make a game where females are glorified, yet very few people can write a great character. This is why games (and gamers) are so ill considered by the rest of the world, they think inserting females on everything is the adequate way to represent females.

The representation of women in Dragon Age is hollow and only serves the purpose of making Bioware seem politically correct.

 

[backlot]

The whole "male as default" discussion reminds me of this article by a writer for the Netflix show Bojack Horseman. I think they did a pretty good job explaining the concept.

 

[DragonGirl]

You dont get it. The fact that many people didnt even know what gender the character in question is isnt due to it being neutral, just badly characterized. A shallow character who just happens to be female does not a good female character make.

All I can do is sigh, shake my head, and say you're the one who doesn't get it. Remember, this is the first part of a mini series exploring positive female characters. If all of the videos just concern themselves with blank slates, then yeah, we have far too narrow a focus here.

But it seems to me that each short video is making a singular point. Point one in this video covers male as default for universal tale when gender is not relevant. I can't express my position on the value of casual female characters any better than I did in my first post. I think the mistake you are making is assuming that this particular example is meant to be the only acceptable portrayal. Obviously that's not the case.

Personally? I'm not a fan of blank slate characters at all, but using such a minimal character as an example in this instance, for this point, is perfectly valid, even inspired as a choice. Don't make the mistake of trying to extrapolate too much meaning out of this video. The video has a narrow focus and each of its successors will likely follow the trend, focusing on a female character that is an exemplar of another point. Ideally, when the series ends we'll have a spectrum of points showing different positive approaches to evaluate. Just as there is no singular ideal portrayal of male characters, so it goes with female characters.

 

[Nerokis]

Its not pretty cool, its just pandering if it doesnt serve a purpose. Absolutely anyone can make a game where females are glorified, yet very few people can write a great character. This is why games (and gamers) are so ill considered by the rest of the world, they think inserting females on everything is the adequate way to represent females.

The representation of women in Dragon Age is hollow and only serves the purpose of making Bioware seem politically correct.

Oh man. Games/gamers are stigmatized because too many female characters are inserted without serving any purpose except political correctness?

This reads like a confession.

 

[JDSN]

Its not pretty cool, its just pandering if it doesnt serve a purpose. Absolutely anyone can make a game where females are glorified, yet very few people can write a great character. This is why games (and gamers) are so ill considered by the rest of the world, they think inserting females on everything is the adequate way to represent females.

The representation of women in Dragon Age is hollow and only serves the purpose of making Bioware seem politically correct.

"Pandering". Check.
"Politically correct". Check.
In one of your posts you leave some doubt the characters badly written. Have you even played any of the games discussed here.

 

[Swamped]

Oh, i played this game and really liked it! Looking forward to watching the video when i get home.

 

[Kinyou]

No. The default gender for a "neutral" character isn't male, and that's exactly the point of that video.

Guys, it's 7 minutes long.

But doesn't the Scythian replicate archetypal male values?

From her "True Grit, Mattie Ross and feminism?" video:

The feminism I subscribe to and work for involves more then women and our fictional representations simply acting like men or unquestioningly replicating archetypal male values such being emotionally inexpressive, the need for domination and competition, and the using violence as a form of conflict resolution.

Wanting characters to challenge gender norms but also not adopting male values is kind of at odds for me.

 

[Astral Dog]

Aren't gameplay elements in a lot of ways part of what "makes a character" ?

If there's enough internal cohesion in a game the actions you're allowed to take & how you take them become intergral to the game's character & characters.

I'd say it's probably one of the most unique elements games as an interactive medium can give to characters that other media generally can't, tying the feel/nature of a character to gameplay.

To sum up my feelings in an image:

I can imagine Link breaking those in a psychopathic rage,

 

[Kabouter]

While I understand her point that the game doesn't have the 'default' male character, it's a bit disappointing to start a series on female characters off with a blank slate character, rather than one with an actual personality. Blank slate characters are pretty uninteresting to me, and I wish developers of story-driven single-player games would avoid them.

 

[besada]

But doesn't the Scythian replicate archetypal male values?

The point is that they aren't male values. There's nothing inherently male about heroism or self-sacrifice. That we think of them as male attributes is the problem.

 

[The Technomancer]

Wanting characters to challenge gender norms but also not adopting male values is kind of at odds for me.

Conceptually, or in this specific instance? Because while I agree that the mythic hero archetype here has some masculine associations (pretty much entirely due to tradition, basically), conceptually the two are absolutely compatible. Challenging gender norms can be just as much about affirming the value of traditionally undervalued female norms as it can be about subverting or discarding them.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Its not pretty cool, its just pandering if it doesnt serve a purpose. Absolutely anyone can make a game where females are glorified, yet very few people can write a great character. This is why games (and gamers) are so ill considered by the rest of the world, they think inserting females on everything is the adequate way to represent females.

The representation of women in Dragon Age is hollow and only serves the purpose of making Bioware seem politically correct.

So the default character gender is male and if a character is female without "justification" it's "pandering" and "only to seem politically correct"? And THAT is why gamers are ill considered by the rest of the world?

Give me a fucking break.

 

[iSnakeTk]

Wow I actually never realised that the main character was a female. I didn't even think about her gender. I guess it just shows how less I care about gender in games.

 

[Shaanyboi]

But doesn't the Scythian replicate archetypal male values?

From her "True Grit, Mattie Ross and feminism?" video:


Wanting characters to challenge gender norms but also not adopting male values is kind of at odds for me.

Heroism, adventure etc. aren't exclusively male characteristics.

 

[Robert at Zeboyd Games]

While I understand her point that the game doesn't have the 'default' male character, it's a bit disappointing to start a series on female characters off with a blank slate character, rather than one with an actual personality. Blank slate characters are pretty uninteresting to me, and I wish developers of story-driven single-player games would avoid them.

Agreed. If the big positive female character trait the game has is the whole Metroid "Surprise! Your character was actually a woman this whole time!" well, that's been done before and was really only interesting the first time.

Would have been more interesting to start the series off with a female character with a strong personality like Raquel from Wild Arms 4.

 

[The Technomancer]

Agreed. If the big positive female character trait the game has is the whole Metroid "Surprise! Your character was actually a woman this whole time!" well, that's been done before and was really only interesting the first time.

This is a bit different because its not played as a "gotcha" moment