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[CommandThrower]

Knowing how to do juggles means you know how to maximize your character's damage off of a successful hit, and thus you can end the round faster, and give your opponent less chances to make a comeback. Not every fighting game has super extensive juggling, but for those that do, it's a key mechanic,

How we make it look better? Honestly, no idea. Hitting people's feet while they're suspended in the air is here to stay.

 

[Seraph_Nicholas]

You're right, but explaining why it has to be this way requires getting into the deep end a bit. Bear with me.

Dating back to the era of Street Fighter II and the growth of high end play, players have described moves in terms of the frames they take to perform. A big heavy kick might take, say, 60 frames, 20 of which are windup, 25 are foot out, hitbox active, and 15 are resetting to neutral. Whereas a short jab might only take 15, divided in three even 5s. These are rough examples, but I hope they help you see how knowing exactly what move your opponent is using can inform what attacks are 'safe' (a term you may have heard before) to counter with. That entire jab can complete before that kick is even done with windup.

Now imagine the moves look different every time. Or there's variable time between moves to account for animations. It would introduce a lot of randomness, something frowned on in any high-level competitive game.

In any fighting game that wants to be taken seriously, a punch, a hitstun, or a block must look the same every time, because players are reading these animations to plan their reactions and combos.

 

[miller.skippins]

to those that says that realistic fighting is fun to watch...no, it's not...

i mean, MMA is kinda cool to watch for its 'raw-ness' but there's a reason why movies (especially Asian action movies) used special unrealistic choreographed moves instead of 'realistic fighting'.

No...the Raid: Redemption is 'cool fighting'..........nobody fight like that in real-life.

The same goes with games.

Bushido Blade is an interesting experiment but no way it is gonna enter EVO as it's boring as hell to watch.

Conclusion: Juggling is cool and fun.

 

[cordy]

Straight up

That's just overall dope.

Tekken used to be worse with this around the T6/TTT2 era but regardless it's not near as bad as some other fighters. It can pull it off.

 

[Durrzerker]

For honor is a good fighting game if you do not like juggling or jumping

 

[QisTopTier]

For honor is a good fighting game if you do not like juggling or jumping

Did they ever get around to fixing the different block speeds of characters so some where not suck with basically unblockables from the faster attackers?

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

Juggling has been a problem for me in fighting games when...

1. Combos take too long to finish (MvC3). It just gets boring to play and watch.

2. Opponents get bounced off the ground. This looks a bit too goofy for my tastes - especially when it happens to big characters like Marduk (Tekken 5).

 

[Fraeon]

In a good fighting game, a combo also provides an avenue for player expression. Maybe you like going for resets and performing shorter combos? Maybe you like being stylish? Or maybe you just do what gets the job done so you can return to neutral?

There is some element to that in Tekken's and Marvel's combos at least.

 

[Monocle]

I'm a serious Tekken player, and I think juggling is stupid as fuck. No fighting game needs it.

Tekken's gameplay is rich enough to have plenty of great plays, juggles are extraneous and a waste of everybody's time.

Are you sure? Juggles are an absolutely essential aspect of Tekken. If you believe juggles are a waste of time, then Tekken must be a waste of time.

 

[Durrzerker]

Did they ever get around to fixing the different block speeds of characters so some where not suck with basically unblockables from the faster attackers?

Sadly not yet. They said it is in progress but proving harder than they thought to implement without glitches.

They gave the slower classes massive buffs to compensate lol. Lawbringer is insane now

 

[Temp_User]

VF5FS has damaging combos but most of the time they're pretty short and to the point. Like way shorter than the ones in Tekken for sure.

It also helps that juggling in VF is strategic because character weight matters. You have to adjust your combo inputs depending if you're juggling a lightweight character like Aoi vs a heavyweight like Jeffry.

 

[Psychoward]

Did they ever get around to fixing the different block speeds of characters so some where not suck with basically unblockables from the faster attackers?

No but slower characters have gotten buffs and most fast characters have gotten nerfs.

I have 7 days of playtime and personally I don't mind the different block speeds because it makes each class feel a bit more unique to me and it makes sense why a character with a buckler would have faster blocking than a character with a giant poleaxe. Ideally they'd keep different block speeds but fix the stupid fast attacks from some characters.

 

[Durrzerker]

I wish you could post webms here like gifs, I don't think anyone makes gifs of For Honor, just webms. :c

 

[Haly]

As for "is there any way to make it look 'good'", I don't think so. The characters are moving through discrete states, the visual aspect of juggling is not so much as a system as it is an emergent property of the mechanics. You would have to create like, a special "juggle state" and have the game switch to that as well as special juggle animations, and I don't know how you'd make someone suspended in the air from hitstuns look good anyway.

 

[Psychoward]

I wish you could post webms here like gifs, I don't think anyone makes gifs of For Honor, just webms. :c

If it's an imgur link you can just remove the v from the end of the url and it'll change it in to a gif.

 

[Durrzerker]

If it's an imgur link you can just remove the v from the end of the url and it'll change it in to a gif.

Nah, they're all from 4chan's /vg/ thread.

 

[JusDoIt]

Its a bad game convention that continues just because.

Combos on general are such bullshit nonsensical game design that has became far too entrenched in fighting games.

Its not going away probably ever(unless I somehow get to design a fighting game)

You are aware that the bullshit nonsensical game design you're talking about is actually a concept from real life combat sports and martial arts, right?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Striking_combination

 

[so1337]

I like juggling in fighting games like Tekken. While it doesn't make sense in terms of realistic-ness, it looks cool to watch, feels good and satisfying to pull it off. While I do feel Tekken's juggling were going a bit too far from T6's bound system and TTT2 having tag and stuff, it's still very cool thing in Tekken if they get the balance right imo.

Realism?

 

[Alx]

VF5FS has damaging combos but most of the time they're pretty short and to the point. Like way shorter than the ones in Tekken for sure.

Yes VF is still better than Tekken on that regard, but then it's still frustrating.
Also the ground/bouncing combos... I don't really care about realism, but I do care about believability. And seeing moves that obviously whiff over the player's bouncing model but still register as part of a combo is... wrong.

 

[Spman2099]

Juggling in moderation is fine (a sentence that will never be spoken outside of fighting games). However, it got really out of hand in later Tekken games and pushed me away from the series. Especially after they added the bound system... I just couldn't take being jabbed five times, then being bounced like a basketball three more times, before being allowed to play the game again anymore. It is nice to be able to take a break and sip your drink, but I don't need enough time to go make a sandwich as well (you can only eat so many sandwiches).

 

[DSix]

So basically you just want the launchers to all do 1/3rd life damage instead? Sounds like a garbage idea

Not exactly, but look at Soul Calibur, it managed just fine with minimalistic juggles.

 

[gelf]

Juggle combos are one reason I prefer 3D fighters to 2D as they are more prevalent in 3D games. I prefer them to link combos because even if your not the greatest at input execution you can often still manage a few extra hits while the opponent falls even if it's not an optimum damage combo. Link combos if I hit one input off timing it's combo over and I get no value for finding an opening.

The Virtua Fighter series has the balance right as regards the length of juggles possible for me.

 

[SomTervo]

I think OP is referring to once you've KO'd the other player but you juggle them anyway, not the general mechanic of juggling

 

[QisTopTier]

Not exactly, but look at Soul Calibur, it managed just fine with minimalistic juggles.

I play Cervantes and Viola tho

Also the soul calibur games past 2 are juggle city

 

[DSix]

Are you sure? Juggles are an absolutely essential aspect of Tekken. If you believe juggles are a waste of time, then Tekken must be a waste of time.

Complex wake up game, mind games, side-steps, etc. Tekken is a very rich fighting game, reducing it to "lol juggles" is kind of ignorant.

 

[FLAguy954]

Doesn't sound like you're very interested in playing fighting games if juggling is a problem for you.

Came here to say this.

 

[Alx]

Came here to say this.

There's more than one way to appreciate fighting games.

 

[Donos]

This juggling always turns me off when seeing Tekken / DoA / VF games (enemy is in the air and then comes the juggle combo eating 40 % of life). Looks always rather bad / floaty there. One tiny jab and enemy is jumping up in the air again...

Like SF more because it's rather toned down there.

 

[miller.skippins]

what about Aerial Rave/Air Combo in the Versus games? OR Guilty Gear/Blazblue?

 

[Temp_User]

what about Aerial Rave/Air Combo in the Versus games? OR Guilty Gear/Blazblue?

I could only wish that Capcom's Vs games have the gravity and burst mechanic of Guilty Gear to prevent those long-ass touch of death, aerial combos.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Barely anything is realistic in a fighting game. Not sure why juggling would bug you.

 

[JimiNutz]

Arms
Pokken
Power Stone
Smash Brothers
Gundam Vs
One Piece Burning Blood
Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm

Maybe you just need to actually try to look

Yeah these are all good examples.
If you primarily game on a PS4 or Xbox One you have few options though (outside of Anime games - which is a problem if you dislike Anime and its art style).

For Honor, UFC2 and DiveKick are probably the best options on current gen platforms.

 

[HeatBoost]

I have to admit I'm kinda weirded out by how defensive people are of juggles. To me, both as a player and as a spectator, a fight is a lot more interesting if there's a ton of back and forth and not just "Landed the launcher... aaand you're done"

Granted, that's an exaggeration in most cases, but still. I guess the momentum is just too exciting?

 

[DigitalRicket]

Yeah, I agree with OP that when you're getting into fighting games juggling seems like a cheap tactic, almost as if it wasn't intended. But as players of those genre's maximized the damage output from various combos and strings it all became part of those games, except for those that don't really use it (aka SF).

But when a game knows how to do it right and also stylize it, well, the results looks amazing:

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

looking "amazing" is somewhat redundant to anyone who is any good at the game
unless the execution is tough its just going through the motions and it becomes a single player game until the combo/juggle ends. Some games have made combos more mindful like Melee's DI, SDI and DI traps, or even Pokkens phase shift point system which requires you to constantly change which sequence to use.

in a perfect world combos would be the equivalent of freestyle jazz. Its crazy to me that no other fighting game has anything like this or at least inspired by it.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Stay away from Hokuto no Ken OP

 

[jsnepo]

Realism isn't always fun.

 

[Harmen]

It just looks really silly in Tekken games in my opinion (see Tekken gifs in this thread). But other games pull it of without it looking awkward. I like the mechanic in terms of gameplay, despite me being quite bad at fighters.

 

[Rambler]

I don't care what the combos look like so long as they're short. Juggles look stupid but if they're short you don't get time to dwell on it.

 

[Anne]

looking "amazing" is somewhat redundant to anyone who is any good at the game
unless the execution is tough its just going through the motions and it becomes a single player game until the combo/juggle ends. Some games have made combos more mindful like Melee's DI, SDI and DI traps, or even Pokkens phase shift point system which requires you to constantly change which sequence to use.

I'm going to pick on you because your post in particular echoes a sentiment that I hear pretty often that is usually just wrong, and I'll kinda dig into the one phrase "going through the motions" and "it just becomes a single player game."

Like I said in an earlier post, combos don't appear out of thin air. In order to start a combo, you need to get a hit. In order to turn that hit into a combo, you need a confirm. In order to complete that combo, you need to use the right one to follow up that confirm and get what you want out of it being damage, knockdown, etc. There's a lot of moving parts to that type of combo which add up to a lot more than an execution check. There's also a lot of fun in figuring out how to adapt optimal shit on the fly or have player expression pop up in what you're doing. It's rarely just somebody dialing in a by the numbers combo unless they are wailing on some poor soul that lets them get their optimal starter in the optimal situation all the time.

When it comes to "single player games," that phrase pops up in fighting games a lot but it rarely has to do with combos. It tends to have to do with oppressive setplay and shit like that. Considering how combos work with resets and known drop/failure points and understanding how different enders work there's a lot for the person getting hit to think about. On top of that, the situations leading into longer combos tend to mean that P2 fucked p in a bad way in most well designed fighting games.

Like, I get people not wanting to watch Dante THC infinite for 2 minutes. I get people not wanting to get put into a Linnefinite off a jab. Putting larger and more expressive combo systems out entirely? Nah. Almost any time I hear people shout down combo systems it's because they just haven't played into them enough to understand what's rewarding or interesting about them.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

I'm going to pick on you because your post in particular echoes a sentiment that I hear pretty often that is usually just wrong, and I'll kinda dig into the one phrase "going through the motions" and "it just becomes a single player game."

Like I said in an earlier post, combos don't appear out of thin air. In order to start a combo, you need to get a hit. In order to turn that hit into a combo, you need a confirm. In order to complete that combo, you need to use the right one to follow up that confirm and get what you want out of it being damage, knockdown, etc. There's a lot of moving parts to that type of combo which add up to a lot more than an execution check. There's also a lot of fun in figuring out how to adapt optimal shit on the fly or have player expression pop up in what you're doing. It's rarely just somebody dialing in a by the numbers combo unless they are wailing on some poor soul that lets them get their optimal starter in the optimal situation all the time.

When it comes to "single player games," that phrase pops up in fighting games a lot but it rarely has to do with combos. It tends to have to do with oppressive setplay and shit like that. Considering how combos work with resets and known drop/failure points and understanding how different enders work there's a lot for the person getting hit to think about. On top of that, the situations leading into longer combos tend to mean that P2 fucked p in a bad way in most well designed fighting games.

Like, I get people not wanting to watch Dante THC infinite for 2 minutes. I get people not wanting to get put into a Linnefinite off a jab. Putting larger and more expressive combo systems out entirely? Nah. Almost any time I hear peopel shout down combo systems it's because they just haven't played into them enough to understand what's rewarding or interesting about them.

Like I said, unless theres a high level of execution involved. Some combos are stupid easy to pull off, for example even though im praising the awareness involved in combo choice in pokken, most of the actual combos are very easy and take a long time to complete, which is not fun for the receiving player or anyone watching. Not sure why you're trying to school me on hit confirms either.

 

[Rambler]

I read a rumor way back that AM2 actually experimented a little with removing juggles from Virtua Fighter 5, and if there's any truth to that then I wonder what issues they ran into.

From what I remember the rumor was that there were still combos, but launches were replaced with stun animations.

 

[Anne]

Like I said, unless theres a high level of execution involved. Some combos are stupid easy to pull off, for example even though im praising the awareness involved in combo choice in pokken, most of the actual combos are very easy and take a long time to complete, which is not fun for the receiving player or anyone watching. Not sure why you're trying to school me on hit confirms either.

I'm schooling people in this thread in general tbh. I legitimately don't expect most GAF posters to understand how combos are structured unless it's a name I know from the old FGW threads.

I don't think ease of execution is a problem until you get into like dial-a-combo tier combos that last 20 seconds at a time. That tends to be pretty rare.

 

[ioriyagami]

Yeah, I agree with OP that when you're getting into fighting games juggling seems like a cheap tactic, almost as if it wasn't intended. But as players of those genre's maximized the damage output from various combos and strings it all became part of those games, except for those that don't really use it (aka SF).

But when a game knows how to do it right and also stylize it, well, the results looks amazing:

Some corrections:

That gif is not really showing juggling. That is just an air combo triggered from a launcher move. Similar, but not quite the same.

Street Fighter has juggling since SFIII (though the float states are already there in SSFII). It is not as predominant as in Tekken and similar, since it is constrained to some "float" states that are triggered and maintained only by specific moves.

 

[killatopak]

DOA does good on this. You can counter a lot of ground combos unless in a stunned state.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

I'm schooling people in this thread in general tbh. I legitimately don't expect most GAF posters to understand how combos are structured unless it's a name I know from the old FGW threads.

I don't think ease of execution is a problem until you get into like dial-a-combo tier combos that last 20 seconds at a time. That tends to be pretty rare.

its just my preference for every hit and movement to be calculated rather than say getting combod in SFV when they have full meter and you'll just be watching your character being battered followed by a cinematic super cutscene for a total of 15 seconds.
Either way this thread is about juggles specifically so this might have gone a bit off track.

 

[Anne]

its just my preference for every hit and movement to be calculated rather than say getting combod in SFV when they have full meter and you'll just be watching your character being battered followed by a cinematic super cutscene for a total of 15 seconds.
Either way this thread is about juggles specifically so this might have gone a bit off track.

I mean if SFV combos are too long and not "calculated" enough for you or something you're probably just not cut out to play traditional fighting games at that point. I'll admit combos in SFV aren't great, but they tend to be fine for most people? Like, if you can't handle somebody else having a turn for 10 seconds or so you shouldn't be in a genre that is about taking turns. At that point, yeah go play Smash or something non traditional.

 

[Forkball]

I don't have any problem with juggling, but being stunlocked in the air is often a side effect of the dial a combo style of inputs. Your opponent launches you and there's nothing you can do because they've already put in the set input and you just watch your dumbass fly across the stage.

Also imagine the leg strength it must take to propel someone in the air as they are falling down.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

I mean if SFV combos are too long and not "calculated" enough for you or something you're probably just not cut out to play traditional fighting games at that point. I'll admit combos in SFV aren't great, but they tend to be fine for most people? Like, if you can't handle somebody else having a turn for 10 seconds or so you shouldn't be in a genre that is about taking turns. At that point, yeah go play Smash or something non traditional.

"Go play X game instead" is not constructive advice. I honestly don't mind the combos in street fighter, or air dash anime type games, just don't prefer it, and can see why newer players being juggled or combod without being able to even move would be obnoxious to the point of never truly getting into the game.

 

[HiddenWings]

Its a bad game convention that continues just because.

Combos on general are such bullshit nonsensical game design that has became far too entrenched in fighting games.

Its not going away probably ever(unless I somehow get to design a fighting game)

Let's hope you never design a fighting game then because combos are essential to the genre and to fighting itself. It's like making a platforming game without jumping.

It's really funny to hear you say this, since Dave Sirlin himself is designing a fighting game where the longest possible combo is like 3 hits. It appears to not suck; I saw it at PAX South this year.