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[Lionel Richie]

So... Did she ever sue her asshole ex that created that tumblr? She could, couldn't she?

 

[Kinyou]

I'd say the lack of dialogue with consumers is the source of some of gaming's major issues outside of even issues of representation. It leads to stoicism and stubbornness on the part of developers and publishers that allows them to continue practices that many gamers openly find atrocious.

What would you suggest they do? The soccer leagues reacted to racist fans with their huge "say no to racism" campaign, but the problem still seems to be pretty big in europe. Not saying that fifa should stop their campaign, but I'm not sure how effective it is.

 

[chrominance]

I don't agree with the idea that developers and other gaming sites being silent on the issue is a problem. We all know what this leads to, and I'm sure some people would like to avoid that shit show like the plague.

It's not just that, though. She's making the case that the industry is actively avoiding people it sees as risks due to being a target of harassment. On some level you have to put blame on the people harassing others in the first place, and I think there's been plenty of that (though again, not from the gaming industry in general). But if anyone is equipped to handle internet hate mobs, you'd hope it would be large publishers and developers with teams of PR people and, more importantly, lawyers. If they are unwilling to bear the brunt of internet hate campaigns in order to shield their employees, or are unwilling to touch people who have already been targeted, who else can we expect to do this? And if the answer is no one, are you okay with seeing all these people disappear from the industry because of the emotional cost they have to pay just to take part?

If none of those things are problems for you, then we'll just have to agree to disagree, probably. But if you do think people leaving the industry is an issue, maybe you have other ideas on how to keep targets of harassment from bailing out that doesn't involve the cooperation or support of developers and publishers.

 

[EdibleKnife]

Would you want that baggage being thrown into your workplace? Would anyone?

If I have consumers of my products that feel unsafe and unwelcome by the very community we are both invested in, I say I'd take on that baggage.

 

[BennyBlanco]

So... Did she ever sue her asshole ex that created that tumblr? She could, couldn't she?

I don't know that airing out your dirty laundry with your ex on the internet is a crime.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Would you want that baggage being thrown into your workplace? Would anyone?

What "baggage" are you talking about?

In the ideal scenario, every major publisher and developer would've come out publicly against GamerGate damn near immediately, and most of the rest of this stuff wouldn't have happened because the entire movement would've died on the vine.

Instead (and I say this having kept an eye on KiA since the beginning), we've had what, 8 months now of them continually thinking they're emboldened by either silence, as it means they're doing nothing wrong (most devs/pubs), or the mentions of "harassment" from a few companies, all of which (at least so far as I've seen) fail to mention GG by name, so they turn around and act like they *must* mean the supposed harassment GG receives.

The game industry's overall lack of action re: GG has been disappointing at every turn.

 

[Charles Brandon]

So... Did she ever sue her asshole ex that created that tumblr? She could, couldn't she?

I was just reading about that. Apparently she had a gagging order put on him and he's raising money to fight it...his post is till out there. I was reading it. Doesn't make her look very good. But then I remembered that it's just one side of the story and even if it is true it's none of my fucking business and certainly doesn't justify all this shite flying around.

 

[EdibleKnife]

What would you suggest they do? The soccer leagues reacted to racist fans with their huge "say no to racism" campaign, but the problem still seems to be pretty big in europe. Not saying that fifa should stop their campaign, but I'm not sure how effective it is.

I mean saying something is wrong always a start. The major issue is that many companies won't even give that. If they want to create online communities or forums with zero tolerance for sexism, racism, harassment, that'd be another step too. Working earnestly to create content that attempts to break the status quo is another (granted some companies do this without speaking out specifically about gamergate). I'm only one man with a few ideas but we are talking about entire companies with the people and resources to discuss at least address the issue and they won't.

I don't think anyone vying for change believes in a future where all the bullshit is 100% eradicated but a future where people who have often felt unwelcome can feel that they are honestly not alone in their own industry is possible.

 

[pants]

This whole thing reminds me how the Doritos pope and actual for real integrity in game journalism stuff of the year previous was swallowed up by wagon circling in the gaming media and the whole GG bullshit. Not that I really care, I avoid most gaming media anyway, I just find it funny how GG managed to so completely kill that discussion

 

[WGMBY]

I read into the whole Mighty No. 9 thing from where it was linked in this article. First time I heard about it. That's another crazy rabbithole of misery if anyone else wants to look.

This GG stuff always depresses me. It makes me feel embarrassed to talk about how much I like games.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Anyone still giving her grief all these months on are very sad people.

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

I read into the whole Mighty No. 9 thing from where it was linked in this article. First time I heard about it. That's another crazy rabbithole of misery if anyone else wants to look.

This GG stuff always depresses me. It makes me feel embarrassed to talk about how much I like games.

Don't. Horrible people exist in every culture.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

How was what he said inflammatory? It seems like some of you just don't want there to be any opposing view points at all.

Yes we must defend the right to spread vague unsourced rumors about the character of harassment victims, truly a noble pursuit.

 

[Trogdor1123]

I always find it interesting that people have not returned the favour to these people and dragged their information out into the public. Is there an actual reason that it hasn't happened?

 

[CrowDieSlow]

It's not just that, though. She's making the case that the industry is actively avoiding people it sees as risks due to being a target of harassment. On some level you have to put blame on the people harassing others in the first place, and I think there's been plenty of that (though again, not from the gaming industry in general). But if anyone is equipped to handle internet hate mobs, you'd hope it would be large publishers and developers with teams of PR people and, more importantly, lawyers. If they are unwilling to bear the brunt of internet hate campaigns in order to shield their employees, or are unwilling to touch people who have already been targeted, who else can we expect to do this? And if the answer is no one, are you okay with seeing all these people disappear from the industry because of the emotional cost they have to pay just to take part?

If none of those things are problems for you, then we'll just have to agree to disagree, probably. But if you do think people leaving the industry is an issue, maybe you have other ideas on how to keep targets of harassment from bailing out that doesn't involve the cooperation or support of developers and publishers.

If I have consumers of my products that feel unsafe and unwelcome by the very community we are both invested in, I say I'd take on that baggage.

Honestly, I don't think they're worth the risk. If their feelings are hurt, yeah that sucks, but are they worth all the negativity that this whole mess has attached to them? Absolutely not.

What "baggage" are you talking about?

In the ideal scenario, every major publisher and developer would've come out publicly against GamerGate damn near immediately, and most of the rest of this stuff wouldn't have happened because the entire movement would've died on the vine.

Instead (and I say this having kept an eye on KiA since the beginning), we've had what, 8 months now of them continually thinking they're emboldened by either silence, as it means they're doing nothing wrong (most devs/pubs), or the mentions of "harassment" from a few companies, all of which (at least so far as I've seen) fail to mention GG by name, so they turn around and act like they *must* mean the supposed harassment GG receives.

The game industry's overall lack of action re: GG has been disappointing at every turn.

The baggage of the harassment that will follow that person wherever they go. No sensible business person would take on something that's more trouble than it's worth without a very considerable pay-off. If you're disappointed, oh well. It is what it is.

 

[Charles Brandon]

This whole thing reminds me how the Doritos pope and actual for real integrity in game journalism stuff of the year previous was swallowed up by wagon circling in the gaming media and the whole GG bullshit. Not that I really care, I avoid most gaming media anyway, I just find it funny how GG managed to so completely kill that discussion

yeah - there certainly is a discussion to be had about conflicts of interest in games writing but the whole topic is just tainted. I feel like a misogynist just typing that and the two subjects should have very little to do with one another.

 

[Lionel Richie]

I don't know that airing out your dirty laundry with your ex on the internet is a crime.

Normally I'd agree, but his stuff was so defamatory and just flat out wrong. To me, it was the text version of sharing nude pics of your ex.

Not that it is the sole reason why this whole awful thing happened, sorry people on the corner of the internet are going to find any reason to be just that.

 

[Glass Shark]

I think the only reason the industry didn't come out against GG immediately is that they had no real idea how much of their fanbase would revolt against them for it. A year later we're finally seeing that GamerGate is such a tiny minority that it wouldn't have much impact on any publisher's bottom line. And although GamerGate would love you to believe they will boycott your game if you're against them, they'll still buy it if they really want to. I haven't heard a peep from GG or KiA about Kojima's "strong women" tweet the other day. You know why? Because they are all dying to play MGSV.

Hilariously, when Blizzard spoke out against harassment on stage at BlizzCon last year, GG somehow twisted it to make it sound like Blizz was for them when any reasonable person would know that the opposite was true. These people are deluded. You'll never convince a self-identified GamerGater that they're wrong. The most you can hope for is getting people who are on the fence to see the truth.

 

[CrowDieSlow]

Yes we must defend the right to spread vague unsourced rumors about the character of harassment victims, truly a noble pursuit.

If you saw malice in his comment, that's on you.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Don't. Horrible people exist in every culture.

That doesn't excuse its persistent existence in our hobby now does it?

Hilariously, when Blizzard spoke out against harassment on stage at BlizzCon last year, GG somehow twisted it to make it sound like Blizz was for them when any reasonable person would know that the opposite was true. These people are deluded. You'll never convince a self-identified GamerGater that they're wrong. The most you can hope for is getting people who are on the fence to see the truth.

Gamergate supporters take the Olympic gold for the mental gymnastics category.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Normally I'd agree, but his stuff was so defamatory and just flat out wrong. To me, it was the text version of sharing nude pics of your ex.

Not that it is the sole reason why this whole awful thing happened, sorry people on the corner of the internet are going to find any reason to be just that.

he's entitled to say what happened from his POV. it's only defamatory if it's untrue. I have no idea if it is or it isn't. Either way it's none of my concern. But he's allowed to post it if he wants to.

 

[meltingparappa]

I was just reading about that. Apparently she had a gagging order put on him and he's raising money to fight it...his post is till out there. I was reading it. Doesn't make her look very good. But then I remembered that it's just one side of the story and even if it is true it's none of my fucking business and certainly doesn't justify all this shite flying around.

I don't give two shits about her personal life as it's none of my fucking business. But a general rule of thumb is that when there's a messy breakup, don't give attention to the one who decides to shit the bed.

Especially a million times more so if they decide to publicly use the breakup to gather pitchforks about something as banal as videogame review scores to use as a pretense in order to allow himself to act like vile human scum to another person.

The fact that other people joined in with him is just ridiculously sad.

 

[cerulily]

. I was reading it. Doesn't make her look very good. But then I remembered that it's just one side of the story and even if it is true it's none of my fucking business and certainly doesn't justify all this shite flying around.

The thing is. It doesn't matter. She didn't publish a manifesto with the intent of ruining his life publicly, he did. Whatever their drama was, all of his credibility is thrown out the window by his actions. Also, he openly admitted to embellishing the content for Drama which means it may be defamatory.

 

[Palette Swap]

Would you want that baggage being thrown into your workplace? Would anyone?

Yet there are tons of large places with active corporate policies about gender equality, race equality or sexual orientation equality and they're pretty happy to communicate about these. You don't see them saying "well, these mysoginists/racists/homophobes are scary, let's avoid their ire by keeping a low profile about these issues". In the end, doing so would be a form of collectively diluted victim blaming where you're effectively punishing a victim because their tormentors are terrible people.
It's a fucked up rationale because you could say the same thing of a company that would fire a harassed employee because they didn't want to handle that baggage.

 

[Fuchsdh]

nah, people tend to easily forget things. Just look at some of the biggest controveries on media. From one to another. I think she just keeps reminding people of it and she never moves on. They used to say that time heals and it has always been true. Hell I almost forgot about this whole debacle until this blog post resurfaced it and she's written a ton. I think if she gave it more than 5 years before writing about her memories and experiences, the populace would calm down.

Sadly, I think this is true. If she had taken the abuse and quieted down, it would blow over. But she's refusing to back down from the harassment and be quiet about how it's affected her life, and that creates a feedback loop of more harassment because you've further angered the people who harassed you in the first place. There's really no winning move for her.

I hadn't heard about the Mighty No. 9 stuff until now, so that was an interesting rabbit hole to go down. Definitely a broader tale there about how not to manage a community.

I think the only reason the industry didn't come out against GG immediately is that they had no real idea how much of their fanbase would revolt against them for it. A year later we're finally seeing that GamerGate is such a tiny minority that it wouldn't have much impact on any publisher's bottom line.

Hilariously, when Blizzard spoke out against harassment on stage at BlizzCon last year, GG somehow twisted it to make it sound like Blizz was for them when any reasonable person would know that the opposite was true. These people are deluded. You'll never convince a self-identified GamerGater that they're wrong. The most you can hope for is getting people who are on the fence to see the truth.

After a lot of the Wikipedia arbitration case revolved around Reddit posts, I spent a lot of time browsing KotakuInAction and GamerGhazi, and they're both deluded echo chambers. Like you say, comments that seem to be the opposite of intent are twisted to suit that side's purpose, and they spend most of the time sniping at each other and feeding each other's complexes. KotakuInAction presents itself as underdogs besieged by evil forces, but also racking up wins as "the people wake up to what's really going on" or whatnot, and GamerGhazi wants to treat GamerGate supporters as cartoon villains that can't do anything but also the most Evil Force In the World.

As you say, aside from the human cost of a few individuals that still lingers to this day, it doesn't look like GamerGate did a whole lot of anything besides maybe a few temporary changes in sponsorships and some rewritten disclosure policies for games press outlets.

 

[CrowDieSlow]

Yet there are tons of large places with active corporate policies about gender equality, race equality or sexual orientation equality and they're pretty happy to communicate about these. You don't see them saying "well, these mysoginists/racists/homophobes are scary, let's avoid their ire by keeping a low profile about these issues". In the end, doing so would be a form of collectively diluted victim blaming where you're effectively punishing a victim because their tormentors are terrible people.
It's a fucked up rationale because you could say the same thing of a company that would fire a harassed employee because they didn't want to handle that baggage.

That's hardly the same thing. It's not anyone's responsibility to handle angry mobs that follow a person around. If it isn't happening internally, it really isn't their problem.

 

[pants]

yeah - there certainly is a discussion to be had about conflicts of interest in games writing but the whole topic is just tainted. I feel like a misogynist just typing that and the two subjects should have very little to do with one another.

People forget there was a pretty legitimate 'integrity in games journalism' discussion happening very close to the start of this nonsense. I remember RPS going in hard on some journalists getting kick backs and being flown around and Dave Cook from CVG (i think that is the name of the publication) being on the train on twitter as well.

I wonder how many of those people that felt this ended unsatisfactorily got duped into the GG army before realizing it's a sham as GG pretended to fly the same flag as the fellows a year before.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Normally I'd agree, but his stuff was so defamatory and just flat out wrong. To me, it was the text version of sharing nude pics of your ex.

Not that it is the sole reason why this whole awful thing happened, sorry people on the corner of the internet are going to find any reason to be just that.

Admittedly, I didn't devote the 300 hours of my life it would've taken to read that entire blog post when this all started, but just skimming it made it seem like some pretty run of the mill accusations of cheating written in a really weird and verbose format.

I doubt that he thought it would blow up like it did, but him leveraging it into asking for donations is really shitty.

I've been out of the loop on this stuff for a long time, I can't believe it's still going on at all to be honest. Thought people would've got bored by now.

 

[Lionel Richie]

he's entitled to say what happened from his POV. it's only defamatory if it's untrue. I have no idea if it is or it isn't. Either way it's none of my concern. But he's allowed to post it if he wants to.

That's kind of true, especially considering that if true it was a really abusive relationship. But I don't know, I think naming everyone sort of defeats the purpose of catharsis and falls into petty revenge.

But then everything was so blown out of proportion that it's kind of hard to think rationally about this one.

 

[Kinsei]

People forget there was a pretty legitimate 'integrity in games journalism' discussion happening very close to the start of this nonsense. I remember RPS going in hard on some journalists getting kick backs and being flown around and Dave Cook from CVG (i think that is the name of the publication) being on the train on twitter as well.

I wonder how many of those people that felt this ended unsatisfactorily got duped into the GG army before realizing it's a sham as GG pretended to fly the same flag as the fellows a year before.

If they had an IQ above 0 then none. Everyone should have seen through GG.

 

[kcp12304]

Honestly, I don't think they're worth the risk. If their feelings are hurt, yeah that sucks, but are they worth all the negativity that this whole mess has attached to them? Absolutely not.

The baggage of the harassment that will follow that person wherever they go. No sensible business person would take on something that's more trouble than it's worth without a very considerable pay-off. If you're disappointed, oh well. It is what it is.

It hurts business when harassment is targeted at female game developers. A female Bioware writer (Jennifer Hepler) was harassed after she talked about how she personally wanted a mode in video games to skip combat due to her busy life/kids. Other women have been harassed but she says this:

that's the biggest risk in my opinion: that we will lose out on the talents of people who would make fantastic games that we would all be the better for playing, because they legitimately don't want to make themselves into targets.

Or one of the Bioware docs:

The impact of having all your brightest creators losing steam and going, 'Screw this,' it's not good

via Eurogamer

It effects the industry because the culture they help grow is turning on their talent. Quinn has a folder of emails of women who have written to her saying that GG has made them not want to join the industry. What if the next Kim Swift or Amy Hennig is pushed out of the industry or goes to another field where she doesn't want to deal with this stuff.

At the very least, our games will suffer.

 

[pants]

If they had an IQ above 0 then none. Everyone should have seen through GG.

You act as if people research what things really are before adding a throwaway comment and hash tagging it. I can see a lot of people who might have thrown out a 'Fuck games journalism #Gamergate' before somewhere down the line learning what was happening and immediately regretting it.

 

[Lionel Richie]

I've been out of the loop on this stuff for a long time, I can't believe it's still going on at all to be honest. Thought people would've got bored by now.

My feelings exactly. I really don't understand the motivation to keep on GameGating or whatever these people think they're doing.

 

[Mesoian]

My feelings exactly. I really don't understand the motivation to keep on GameGating or whatever these people think they're doing.

"Because these people want to take our games away".

 

[Spiritwalker]

This industry is full of disgusting pigs. It's tragic.

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

That doesn't excuse its persistent existence in our hobby now does it?

It doesn't, but that was not my point. My point is that we shouldn't blame our hobby for this we should blame the people responsible.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

My feelings exactly. I really don't understand the motivation to keep on GameGating or whatever these people think they're doing.

It's a psychopathic game to many of them, with the end goal being Zoe and other outspoken individuals (the majority of which happen to be women) retiring from the medium.

It doesn't, but that was not my point. My point is that we shouldn't blame our hobby for this we should blame the people responsible.

That's why it's typically better to make a point instead of some interpretable statement. And nobody was blaming the hobby. They are blaming the status quo within the hobby's community, and the industry that continues to ignore addressing it.

 

[CrowDieSlow]

It hurts business when harassment is targeted at female game developers. A female Bioware writer (Jennifer Hepler) was harassed after she talked about how she personally wanted a mode in video games to skip combat due to her busy life/kids. Other women have been harassed but she says this:

via Eurogamer

It effects the industry because the culture they help grow is turning on their talent. Quinn has a folder of emails of women who have written to here saying that GG has made them not want to join the industry. What if the next Kim Swift or Amy Hennig is pushed out of the industry or goes to another field where she doesn't want to deal with this stuff.

At the very least, our games will suffer.

I don't see the need to distinguish between male and female developers when we're talking about quality. Talent lost is talent lost, if they don't want to be in the industry, someone else could just as easily take their place.

 

[Toxi]

My feelings exactly. I really don't understand the motivation to keep on GameGating or whatever these people think they're doing.

It's hardly unusual. Conspiracy theory communities tend to be absurdly resilient even when throughly disproven. There are still 9/11 truthers out there.

 

[Kinsei]

It doesn't, but that was not my point. My point is that we shouldn't blame our hobby for this we should blame the people responsible.

When most of the people not affected and most of the ones that create games stay silent on this issue I think it's safe to blame the hobby as a whole.

 

[Charles Brandon]

It effects the industry because the culture they help grow is turning on their talent. Quinn has a folder of emails of women who have written to here saying that GG has made them not want to join the industry. What if the next Kim Swift or Amy Hennig is pushed out of the industry or goes to another field where she doesn't want to deal with this stuff.

At the very least, our games will suffer.

Isn't that what some of these guys want though? I'm sure it's a very simplistic take but isn't part of their "thing" the rejection of female incursions into male territory?

 

[conman]

One of the worst things about the whole GamerGate debacle is the industry's overall non-reaction.

Cheaper, easier, safer to stay quiet, shut out the small number of victims, placate or at least try not to anger the larger number of harassers, hope the whole thing goes away.

It's shameful.

Truly. The idiots doing the harassing are beasts. But the overwhelming silence throughout the industry is unconscionable. Beasts can't help but act like beasts, but people working in the industry have a choice. And right now, most are choosing to be silent and are letting the beasts run wild.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

I don't see the need to distinguish between male and female developers when we're talking about quality. Talent lost is talent lost, if they don't want to be in the industry, someone else could just as easily take their place.

So it doesn't matter to you if the industry workforce is diversified or not. Okay. Others (including me) strongly disagree with that.

 

[CrowDieSlow]

When most of the people not affected and most of the ones that create games stay silent on this issue I think it's safe to blame the hobby as a whole.

Why? We haven't done anything wrong, so the actions of people who are acting like jerks shouldn't be held against us.

 

[mgs2master2]

I just have a question. I quickly scanned thread and saw nothing. I understand what she went through is hell. It sucks and I agree the industry deserves better. My question Though is how concrete can we her word here? If this has been happen as she said, why is it barely coming to light now in her blog post? It's no where else really? I am just curious on this.

 

[kcp12304]

I don't see the need to distinguish between male and female developers when we're talking about quality. Talent lost is talent lost, if they don't want to be in the industry, someone else could just as easily take their place.

What you just said sounds so callous and lacking in empathy.

When a large portion of your talents might just leave or stay away it becomes a problem to the quality of games we make. I'm concerned that the next Portal (made by Kim Swift) might not be made. Plenty of developers (male and female) agree. These are our fellow nerds (male and female) who are being pushed out. We should care.

 

[Armaros]

I don't see the need to distinguish between male and female developers when we're talking about quality. Talent lost is talent lost, if they don't want to be in the industry, someone else could just as easily take their place.

GGers are not running males out the industry

The women are being run out because they are women.

To try to ignore that is to try to downplay the harassment.

 

[Toxi]

I just have a question. I quickly scanned thread and saw nothing. I understand what she went through is hell. It sucks and I agree the industry deserves better. My question Though is how concrete can we her word here? If this has been happen as she said, why is it barely coming to light now in her blog post? It's no where else really? I am just curious on this.

Where have you been the past year?

 

[Fuchsdh]

I just have a question. I quickly scanned thread and saw nothing. I understand what she went through is hell. It sucks and I agree the industry deserves better. My question Though is how concrete can we her word here? If this has been happen as she said, why is it barely coming to light now in her blog post? It's no where else really? I am just curious on this.

True, you only have her at her word, but on the other hand this stuff isn't exactly mainstream news, nor is it easily verifiable anyhow (not like there's public recording of emails to try and blacklist people from different game companies.)

 

[Joe White]

Why? We haven't done anything wrong, so the actions of people who are acting like jerks shouldn't be held against us.

Issue is that too few of us does the right thing when seeing those jerks in action.