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[Neoriceisgood]

Huh.

Y'know I'd really like to know what you meant in that PM when you said I'd get my ass beat if I was in your town.

What the fuck, really?

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Spot on, nobody can come off as properly professional or even slightly serious writing like that. Watch the hard core calling you a victim blamer for pointing it out, though.

Nah, that's tone policing.

Why should she write like a company press release when discussing the harassment she's victim of on her personal blog?

Huh.

Y'know I'd really like to know what you meant in that PM when you said I'd get my ass beat if I was in your town.

lol, why am I not surprised. Did he write it in a professional way at least?

 

[Mesoian]

Huh.

Y'know I'd really like to know what you meant in that PM when you said I'd get my ass beat if I was in your town.

Dirty laundry, but I lol'd.

 

[Kinsei]

What the fuck, really?

Yeah. It was there when I logged on this morning. I sent him a response asking what the fuck he was talking about but he never responded.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Spot on, nobody can come off as properly professional or even slightly serious writing like that. Watch the hard core calling you a victim blamer for pointing it out, though.

What valuable input you have injected into the discussion. Please do explain more to us about how her style of writing in a tumblr post matters or even reflects on her professionalism.

 

[sensui-tomo]

Huh.

Y'know I'd really like to know what you meant in that PM when you said I'd get my ass beat if I was in your town.

If someone is threatening you kinsei, please send that info to the mods, we really don't need a mob in here attacking a person who sent that to you nor does it help the discussion. but send it to a moderator and they'll deal with it.

 

[aspiegamer]

So... Did she ever sue her asshole ex that created that tumblr? She could, couldn't she?

(Sorry if this is somewhat OT)
She has a restraining order against him after that initial ranting, which he's fighting in court because harassment doesn't count as harassment if it's on the internet because Freedom Of Speech or something. I kid you not. Literally, that he feels his freedom of speech is being squelched because he's not allowed to talk about things sealed under court order. He recently started a kickstarter for his legal fees which succeeded at just over $10,000.

I been avoiding threads like these because last time I posted my opinion and a joke (in my opinion), I was banned for a month and called a GGer which isn't true. I decided to give this thread and read and see what's this about. I guess I been lucky to a degree?

True, you may be right on this. So unless we have others speak up, it's just her statements at the moment. It will be interesting to see what develops next.

Edit:
This is probably what I needed to be informed. Thank you.

Sorry if you got banned needlessly in this mess. I'd almost say that's a form of blessing at this point. TLDR to all of this-- Zero of any of the original accusations against anyone were ever proven and we've had a 9-month spree of harassing Zoe Quinn and basically anyone who dares to go on a "diversity in gaming" or "feminism in gaming" position. Big industry figures don't want to talk about this stuff because it's generally bad for business to talk about supposedly controversial things. Plus, I sure as hell wouldn't want to be on the end of a GG harassment campaign. Doxxing is a mere entry-level type of hounding the victims in these cases. There's a reason GG was flagged for classification as a hate group early on.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Industry has a diversity problem but also has a talent problem. Its hard enough trying to find talented people. A lot of studios give art/programming tests and honestly a lot of them come up short. I know quite a few studios remove the names of the artist and present the art tests to the leads/artists so there is no bias and its based purely off their artwork/skill.

Honestly there are a lot of companies that SEEK diversity as their main hiring criteria; Mobile. Mobile games audience has a large enough audience of female users it becomes in its best interest to hire more women. My wife moved to mobile games because of the start-up atmosphere (and money).

 

[CrowDieSlow]

Okay, but can you understand why, for people of different backgrounds and experiences, seeing their experiences reflected in the games they play might increase the quality for them?

Not really, no. But that's because I don't really look for my real life experiences to be reflected in a game, so I'm not one to judge how that feeling impacts anyone.

Nope, it's not about quality but diversity.

Now lets suppose a white guy and a black guy each makes a game while the white woman and Indian woman don't make any games for fear of harassment, is the industry more or less health than the scenario you proposed? That's the status quo unless things change.

Why couldn't a white woman and an Indian woman who don't fear harassment take their place? Or anyone else for that matter? Assuming they make a game that's good, they're interchangeable.

We get it, you want games you enjoy. Guess what? We all do. But some of us are sick of "White dude-bro shoots Brown people in the Middle-east XIV". This is especially true for those of certain demographics that are either underrepresented or worse, shown almost exclusively as the bad guy, in games. Are you really that selfish and/or lack the empathy to feel for these people?

I wouldn't say that I'm selfish, but I will say that I lack empathy for those people. It's not like there aren't games that aren't "white dude-bro shoots Brown people in the Middle-east XIV" at all. I've never felt like I was missing out because more game's don't prominently feature Black characters, and I've certainly never held that against a game.

 

[Ty4on]

What should people be doing? Getting involved in flame wars on video game forums? Posting messages of support?

Ancient reply but to everybody wondering this helpful post by Leigh Alexander is still relevant.

 

[jon bones]

it's the same tired disingenuity in ever GG thread...

It's gonna take awhile but I should be able to find it

no luck eh?

I am on mobile so I really cannot make a huge post quoting multiple things.

However,what has happened to Zoe is not just internet bullying or harassment. It's more akin to what happens to corporate whistleblowers, a targeted campaign to destroy a persons life so completely that they are ostracized both professionally and personally.

This is not something that goes away, or you write a book about years down the line. The damage is done, the choice at this point is to bend to the pressure and restart your life and live in fear, or expose the bastards at every step possible so you can retain your dignity and maybe prevent it for others in the future.

She's choosing the noble path and I support that, and we should hear about that, it should not be left alone until people forget, as humans we have made a social pact seen in most tragedys and atrocities to not forget so the past is not repeated, and on a lesser scale she is following that example.

well said throughout, but this last bit really got me.

you'd think people who spent their childhoods reading comics and playing video games would act more like the heroes of those those.

 

[Bust Nak]

I'm not missing any point, and I'm not against diversification. I'm just saying that diversity or the lack of diversity isn't going to stop me from enjoying a game or enjoy it more just on the merits of it being the creation of a diverse group of talented people.

It seems you are saying the quality of a game is independent from the diversity of the group producing it. I suggest otherwise. A diverse group of people will produce a better game than a uniform group given equal ability.

Why couldn't a white woman and an Indian woman who don't fear harassment take their place? Or anyone else for that matter? Assuming they make a game that's good, they're interchangeable.

Sure they could be replaced, but you'll still get the same problem because people are a limited resource: Which would you prefer, 6 games or 4 games plus 2 potential ones that never got made due to fear or harassment.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Except, you know...Intel

But you're right, there is no obligation. Which is why it stands out when companies DO make the decision to take a stand, even if the outcrying of said position is surface level at best.

seems like a textbook case of "would not be well advised to take a public stance" to me.

I don't really disagree with you, it's just that it's not easy for people to actively fight this cause. Arguing on the web solves nothing and gets you nowhere. It's not something that any company director should touch with a ten foot pole if he values his position.

 

[besada]

Yeah. It was there when I logged on this morning. I sent him a response asking what the fuck he was talking about but he never responded.

Please send me a copy of the message.

As for the rest of the thread, please attempt to stay on topic, and spend less time engaging in meta discussion of other people's posts.

 

[Mael]

Why couldn't a white woman and an Indian woman who don't fear harassment take their place? Or anyone else for that matter? Assuming they make a game that's good, they're interchangeable.

You can't possibly be serious with this.

 

[Armaros]

Not really, no. But that's because I don't really look for my real life experiences to be reflected in a game, so I'm not one to judge how that feeling impacts anyone.



Why couldn't a white woman and an Indian woman who don't fear harassment take their place? Or anyone else for that matter? Assuming they make a game that's good, they're interchangeable.



I wouldn't say that I'm selfish, but I will say that I lack empathy for those people. It's not like there aren't games that aren't "white dude-bro shoots Brown people in the Middle-east XIV" at all. I've never felt like I was missing out because more game's don't prominently feature Black characters, and I've certainly never held that against a game.

You know for asking the question of 'why is diversity important'

You seem to like to ignore anything that doesn't direct relate to you to deflect its importance.

Also so women should just get a bigger spine and deal with harassment and possibly death threats in order to do the same job as men that don't? And this is not a problem?

It looks like you don't even understand why GG is a problem if you really believe this.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Ancient reply but to everybody wondering this helpful post by Leigh Alexander is still relevant.

yep, that works

 

[Corronchilejano]

People here talking about game quality when it has nothing to do with the subject matter and spreading rumors and leaving without posting a source.

Didnt miss gamergate threads and still dont. Whatever opinion you may have about certain people in the industry shouldn't affect your stance on harrasing an individual.

 

[Mesoian]

seems like a textbook case of "would not be well advised to take a public stance" to me.

I don't really disagree with you, it's just that it's not easy for people to actively fight this cause. Arguing on the web solves nothing and gets you nowhere. It's not something that any company director should touch with a ten foot pole if he values his position.

Like I said, the best way to fight it is to call out bullshit when you see it. Because so much of this is just straight up bullshit, it gets shut down at the mere mention of how ridiculous it is.

Like, remember when people were saying that Anita Sarkeesian was hired to write Mirror's Edge 2 and make it more feministic? That was bullshit, straight up. Call that shit out.

 

[GeordieMark]

What valuable input you have injected into the discussion. Please do explain more to us about how her style of writing in a tumblr post matters or even reflects on her professionalism.

If you put something out on a public forum, expect people to comment on it. You can't control which aspects people comment on.

I never made a big deal of it, and I never let the style of the piece obscure the point. I merely pointed out that the particular style she writes in, which is pretty prevalent on Tumblr, is not one that I like, or enjoy reading.

Nobody needs to give you any further explanation than that. Its an opinion.

 

[alstein]

And that's great for you, but many, many, MANY other people also want games to show different things than what studios of mostly white men provide us. We want a variety of perspectives that are about wildly different things at different levels of scale. Sure indie development is an option for that, but why can't we also have AAA games that do the same thing?

And these other perspectives? They matter. They matter to many people to see their own experiences, something they can empathize with more, something that they can relate to, on the screen.

The best way for that to happen is through the indie game scene. You can't expect risk-averse AAA studios that have to answer to shareholders to take those risks. Thankfully, the indie game marketplace is as open as it's ever been due to Digital Download. Given the competitiveness of the indie game market, underserved genres are one of the best ways to make a living as an indie.

If those smaller indie games are successful, you'll gradually see bigger budgets, and then AAA will come if it warrants AAA investment. That's how capitalism works.

As for ZQ, or anyone else, no matter what your opinion of them- you don't deserve that sort of harassment. All too often I've seen folks tolerate harassment when it comes from their own side. Shitty behavior is shitty behavior period- if you act in the way GAF describes gators as acting, you're a shithole, no matter what your actual opinions are.

 

[Sai-kun]

Why couldn't a white woman and an Indian woman who don't fear harassment take their place? Or anyone else for that matter? Assuming they make a game that's good, they're interchangeable.



I wouldn't say that I'm selfish, but I will say that I lack empathy for those people. It's not like there aren't games that aren't "white dude-bro shoots Brown people in the Middle-east XIV" at all. I've never felt like I was missing out because more game's don't prominently feature Black characters, and I've certainly never held that against a game.

empathy can be learned so maybe it's time to start?

edit: also lord @ the bolded

are you for real?

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Why couldn't a white woman and an Indian woman who don't fear harassment take their place? Or anyone else for that matter? Assuming they make a game that's good, they're interchangeable.

So now the problem isn't harassment, it's people fearing it? If you fire the women afraid of harassment and hire courageous ones, the problem will magically disappear? Because the harassment never existed in the first place, it was only in their head?

Your logic is getting higher and higher on the bullshit-o-meter. But hey, as long as it doesn't stop you from enjoying the latest releases, whether they're developed by men, women or monkeys with typewriters.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I wouldn't say that I'm selfish, but I will say that I lack empathy for those people. It's not like there aren't games that aren't "white dude-bro shoots Brown people in the Middle-east XIV" at all. I've never felt like I was missing out because more game's don't prominently feature Black characters, and I've certainly never held that against a game.

Okay, since you're apparently unable to process beyond "this game good so I like" let's create a hypothetical.

Think of your favorite game. I'm going to be a bit presumptuous here and say that that game was made by a man. Let's pretend though that we're back to before the game was made, AND that the person who could make it is now a woman. Now let's add GamerGate to the formula and they're making life a living hell for women. This person who could have later developed your favorite game sees this and decides that nah, not worth the pain. So they move on and your favorite game was never made.

This is why diversity is important. This is why making the industry and community surrounding gaming a safeplace for all is important. We are losing what could have been our favorite games. Talent is either too scared to enter the industry or too tired to continue to fight it.

 

[Toxi]

companies don't have a moral duty to do anything. The directors are obligated to maximise profit within the law for the shareholders. That's it. No company director is going to well advised take a public stance on something like this

Blizzard took a pretty public stance. It wasn't hard when even the mainstream media (including the Colbert Report) was making fun of GamerGate. You also had some pretty big industry figures like Tim Schaffer denouncing the harassment. Oh, and William Shatner. Can't forget the Shatner.

Honestly, I don't blame the industry near as much as the audience when it comes to GamerGate blowing up. It was shocking how many people, especially major YouTube celebrities, were willing to entertain and promote that trash. It was a wake-up call for me that the gaming community really has a rotten core to it, and I lost respect for a lot of people I previously respected a lot when they started opportunistically pandering to the GamerGate audience.

On the other hand, I gained a lot of respect for a lot of people in the community. MrBTongue, Jim Sterling, many of the posters on GAF, some 4chan anons, even people I might not have agreed with like Boogie. Trying to be the best person you can when faced with bile and lies is something admirable, and I am glad I saw that admirable element in the video games community even as I saw the worst elements. It says something that the #StopGamerGate2014 tag easily beat #GamerGate on twitter when people decided to show that those people don't represent us.

I just really wish people who are targets of harassment because of GatorGamble would be able to get on with their lives without having to constantly look over their shoulders. Zoe Quinn's life was turned over by a bitter ex using the video game community to attack her. It boggles my mind that so many fools did.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Not really, no. But that's because I don't really look for my real life experiences to be reflected in a game, so I'm not one to judge how that feeling impacts anyone.

Why couldn't a white woman and an Indian woman who don't fear harassment take their place? Or anyone else for that matter? Assuming they make a game that's good, they're interchangeable.

I wouldn't say that I'm selfish, but I will say that I lack empathy for those people. It's not like there aren't games that aren't "white dude-bro shoots Brown people in the Middle-east XIV" at all. I've never felt like I was missing out because more game's don't prominently feature Black characters, and I've certainly never held that against a game.

I've been really trying to understand the relation between your posts & the actual subject but..

Am I correct in distilling your position down to: "If something doesn't increase the number of games I enjoy, I don't care one single bit" ?

Because nearly every post about your preferences/why you don't care about diversity comes down to "Me me me".

or as Noblesse so nicely put it:

Okay, since you're apparently unable to process beyond "this game good so I like" let's create a hypothetical.

 

[CrowDieSlow]

And that's great for you, but many, many, MANY other people also want games to show different things than what studios of mostly white men provide us. We want a variety of perspectives that are about wildly different things at different levels of scale. Sure indie development is an option for that, but why can't we also have AAA games that do the same thing?

And these other perspectives? They matter. They matter to many people to see their own experiences, something they can empathize with more, something that they can relate to, on the screen.

Well, good for you I guess? But a large portion of the gaming audience asks for more varied experiences, and the best way to get there would be to have more diversity in the actual development teams.

Would it be rude to say that I really don't care about what other people want? Because I don't, but I don't want that to be held against me.

Serious question.

Would you say that you are satisfied with the end result of more than 75% of AAA developed games?

Yes, yes I would. But maybe that's because I don't play a lot of the games people seem to have a problem with.

 

[Mael]

Would it be rude to say that I really don't care about what other people want? Because I don't, but I don't want that to be held against me.

You don't care what other people want but you care what they think about you?
You're a goddamn riot.

 

[jon bones]

Would it be rude to say that I really don't care about what other people want? Because I don't, but I don't want that to be held against me.

oh man, this just got hilarious

 

[Interfectum]

CrowDieSlow
Banned

CrowDie...Fast?

 

[Sai-kun]

Would it be rude to say that I really don't care about what other people want? Because I don't, but I don't want that to be held against me.

it's not rude but it makes you weird honestly.

fake edit: bye

 

[woxel1]

CrowDieSlow
Banned

CrowDie...Fast?

Not quickly enough, this thread was thoroughly sidetracked. GG strikes again!

 

[Tapejara]

Would it be rude to say that I really don't care about what other people want? Because I don't, but I don't want that to be held against me.

So is your position essentially "I don't care about this issue?" Because a lot of your points seem to apathetic towards the issues discussed. I'm trying to avoid saying your opinion is irrelevant to the topic at hand, but I'm not sure why we've spent three pages discussing your interests in such detail.

Edit: Oh, never mind then lol.

 

[Armaros]

oh man, this just got hilarious

Well he decided to go all in on the "i don't care about anything besides the games i like, so the harassment doesn't matter since I have my games" while in a thread talking about Zoe's and other women's harassment in the industry.

His Devils advocation become I don't care ism so it doesn't matter.

 

[Kimawolf]

Why not name these companies not hiring her? If she's black listed why care to keep them concealed? Anyone can say "well no one will hire me cuz of internet drama".

 

[Mesoian]

Yes, yes I would. But maybe that's because I don't play a lot of the games people seem to have a problem with.

The reason why I asked, pre that ban anyway, was because generally when I talk to people about gamergate or the mobile/console transition or an all digital future, people who are satisfied with games as they are now on a whole don't see the need for change. So their position is generally that of heels in the sand level aggressive refusal of any sort of change as they think that they will no longer be placated.

Which is a little silly I think, considering we've had more games released this past year than any year that's come before it.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Why not name these companies not hiring her? If she's black listed why care to keep them concealed? Anyone can say "well no one will hire me cuz of internet drama".

It's not at all unheard of for companies, websites etc to intentionally keep away from "controversial figures" (read: victims of harassment/bullying campaigns)

Considering Zoe quinn's been at the eye of one of the biggest storms in gaming I don't exactly think it's that extrodinary to hear it has affected her professional movement space.

 

[Corronchilejano]

Anyone can say "well no one will hire me cuz of internet drama".

Not everyone has a whole movement created for the sole purpose of harrasing them.

 

[Mesoian]

Why not name these companies not hiring her? If she's black listed why care to keep them concealed? Anyone can say "well no one will hire me cuz of internet drama".

Because one way to stay blacklisted, even if the company changes management, is to drag them through the mud even after your affairs with them are over. Moreover, it makes establishments that might hire you look twice about whether or not you're going to muckrake them at the first sign of an internal dispute.

If I was in charge of hiring someone, I too would probably not hire the person who dragged her previous employer onto the blogosphere over differences of opinion.

And while anyone can say that no one will hire them over internet drama, it's rarely actually true. With Zoe Quinn, I could see how it's true.

 

[L Thammy]

Because nearly every post about your preferences/why you don't care about diversity comes down to "Me me me".

Tangentially, that's one of the roots of Gamergate right there. You have some people explaining how the culture excludes them and saying how they think that it should be improved. And you have others - most of which weren't even the intended audience - replying with "why are you getting in the way of my fun?"

Scanning over the thread, there was a post much earlier where someone asked when this would end. Hopefully it mostly dies down over time, but I'm not sure if it will go away completely. Look at, say, Christian Weston Chandler, the autistic guy who people have been cyberstalking and harassing for years. Some people don't seem to get bored of harassment, whether because they expect to get some new reaction or because new people stumble upon it and it's new to them.

 

[Opto]

Seeing all the fanatical War Boys in Mad Max Fury Road has given me a much more amusing mental picture of these people when they make obvious ban-me posts.

I LIVE, I DIE, I LIVE AGAIN, Gates of Valhalla, etc.

This is perfect.

 

[vxXJordanXxv]

I still don't get why this whole gamergate thing even exists. Movies and TV shows have had more diverse roles for a long time and I don't see them being ruined? Hell one of my favorite characters is Ripley from Aliens. Personally I think people are afraid of all their characters from current IPs being "feminized" which is ludicrous in my opinion.

 

[Mesoian]

I still don't get why this whole gamergate thing even exists. Movies and TV shows have had more diverse roles for a long time and I don't see them being ruined? Hell one of my favorite characters is Ripley from Aliens. Personally I think people are afraid of all their characters from current IPs being "feminized" which is ludicrous in my opinion.

That Fury Road shit was crazy. That movie was rad.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I still don't get why this whole gamergate thing even exists. Movies and TV shows have had more diverse roles for a long time and I don't see them being ruined? Hell one of my favorite characters is Ripley from Aliens. Personally I think people are afraid of all their characters from current IPs being "feminized" which is ludicrous in my opinion.

I think a response to that statement is that many people don't think movies are actually that diverse.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Why not name these companies not hiring her? If she's black listed why care to keep them concealed? Anyone can say "well no one will hire me cuz of internet drama".

Does this really need to be explained?

Streamers have been swatted live on Twitch. Companies have had threats sent to them. Slander/Libel anyone? If she starts rattling off names and companies things can get ugly - really, really fast.

If its such a stretch for you to believe that GG is capable of harassing people into bowing out of things, why don't you do a simple google search?

Do you not remember the guy who threatened to shoot up a Utah school because of Anita speaking there? This is not exactly a stretch for GG.

 

[vxXJordanXxv]

I think a response to that statement is that many people don't think movies are actually that diverse.

I see so many female leads in movies and TV shows nowadays. I just don't get this thing and why people would be against it in video games.

 

[OneEyeTwoHead]

You know, maybe it's just me being naive and not understanding this whole situation, but I was under the impression that Zoe Quinn was disliked and hated NOT because she was a woman, but because of that whole cheating/sleeping around scandal. The 2 seem to have molded together in recent months thanks to the media and weird white-knighting posts equating the two in relation to her.

As I said, I'm ignorant on the subject but that's how it appears to me as an outsider.

 

[sensui-tomo]

You know, maybe it's just me being naive and not understanding this whole situation, but I was under the impression that Zoe Quinn was disliked and hated NOT because she was a woman, but because of that whole cheating/sleeping around scandal. The 2 seem to have molded together in recent months thanks to the media and weird white-knighting posts equating the two in relation to her.

As I said, I'm ignorant on the subject but that's how it appears to me as an outsider.

Shes hated for both and the cheating thing never happened. hell i could care less if she did cheat or have sex with anyone in the press. Thats their business.

 

[semisonic]

Would it be rude to say that I really don't care about what other people want? Because I don't, but I don't want that to be held against me.



Yes, yes I would. But maybe that's because I don't play a lot of the games people seem to have a problem with.

Well it makes you a sociopath.
That's bad.
RIP thread-derailer. You will not be particularly missed.

Getting back on topic, it's a goddamn shame what all's happened to Zoe and some of the others. No one deserves that kind of treatment, and I'm a little shocked that some people are so malicious at heart that they can take enjoyment in this. I died a little when I saw that post with the 4chan pics that said that their goal was suicide. Goddamn.

 

[Mman235]

Scanning over the thread, there was a post much earlier where someone asked when this would end. Hopefully it mostly dies down over time, but I'm not sure if it will go away completely. Look at, say, Christian Weston Chandler, the autistic guy who people have been cyberstalking and harassing for years. Some people don't seem to get bored of harassment, whether because they expect to get some new reaction or because new people stumble upon it and it's new to them.

While this has been the most organised and successful version, technically GG type harassment campaigns have existed for years, and have succeeded in driving out woman before (Jennifer Hepler for example). Basically every Internet asshole known in the past for publicly harassing and/or stalking people (mostly woman) is an open member of GG. While this is the strongest they've been, being so brazen about it also makes this the most vulnerable these people have made themselves, and the industry calling them out would be a good start.

You know, maybe it's just me being naive and not understanding this whole situation, but I was under the impression that Zoe Quinn was disliked and hated NOT because she was a woman, but because of that whole cheating/sleeping around scandal. The 2 seem to have molded together in recent months thanks to the media and weird white-knighting posts equating the two in relation to her.

As I said, I'm ignorant on the subject but that's how it appears to me as an outsider.

Yeah they don't hate her for being a woman, they just hate her for shit that never happened that also happens to heavily gender based in how it's treated (slut shaming), but I'm sure someone posting about "white knighting" is arguing in good faith lol.