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[Ty4on]

I remember reading about a couple of not anonymous developers getting "bullied" or "harassed" by Quinn and her friends at certain events.

I think its messed up that they got bombarded by Internet hate for sharing their experiences, yet nobody feels sorry for them.

I don't understand how some ppl have only decided to see one side of the coin in this craziness.

This is one of those things I really hate seeing in these threads because, whether intentional or not, it throws a lot of hate back to the victim.

It puts up a standard that Quinn and her friends should be perfect and never harm anyone. Obviously I don't think harming anyone is good, but, whether intentional or not, most of us do it sometimes. GG was created by people who had been hurt by Zoe and blowing it up to what your second line is so it perpetuates the cyclic nature instead of applying empathy for all parties.
Your third line is also a bit strange because you've just done that.

Zoe has addressed a similar issue. She held a panel with Patrick Klepek about harassment (note that this was before GG) and talked a lot about how the harassers on the other side were people as well (her talk starts at 26m). When they were asked about retweeting harassers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGiUHF2iqkY#t=47m50s
This was her reply:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGiUHF2iqkY#t=49m15s

Edit: I usually don't spell links out because then I can make the actual link something else and fool people (they're more likely to double check a linked word), but did it here to make the timestamps clear for mobile devices.

 

[rhandino]

Over the course of running Crash Override, we’ve gotten a lot of cases where people were worried about their livelihoods. What happens if they find my stalker’s blogs about me? Will they fire me from all the phone calls from strangers? They’re mass emailing my boss demanding I be fired - even though it’s one person sending a bunch of mails. How will I ever find a job after this? Do I have anything to worry about?

With a really fucking heavy heart I’ve gotta say yes. Yes you do.

Especially if you work in a almost every industry

ftfh

I mean, not many industries want to deal with the heavy baggage that a new employee could bring that will potentially disrupt them when there are so many people out there without it... I say this as someone who has witnessed a LOT of males candidates being rejected because they bring baggage like on-going divorces, are held by spousal support, etc...

A shame tbh since a lot of very talented and very good people are not getting jobs because of things that, most of the time, are out of their control T_T

 

[CrowDieSlow]

So it doesn't matter to you if the industry workforce is diversified or not. Okay. Others (including me) strongly disagree with that.

Let's say a White guy, a Black guy, a White woman, and an Indian woman each make a game. Are the games going be to be of any more high or low quality because of each person's race or gender, or because of each person's writing and developing abilities?

 

[Charles Brandon]

What should people be doing? Getting involved in flame wars on video game forums? Posting messages of support?

 

[Mesoian]

I just have a question. I quickly scanned thread and saw nothing. I understand what she went through is hell. It sucks and I agree the industry deserves better. My question Though is how concrete can we her word here? If this has been happen as she said, why is it barely coming to light now in her blog post? It's no where else really? I am just curious on this.

We need a way for people to cut through the bullshit. I'll take the blame, usually I'm the one to post this, I just didn't think it would be necessary this time.

Everything you need to know about gamergate, Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkessian and Brianna Wu in a nutshell.

What should people be doing? Getting involved in flame wars on video game forums? Posting messages of support?

Call out bullshit when you see it so people don't idly think it's okay. That's it. You don't have to like the people on either sides of the argument, but when someone says something that you know is not only untrue, but harmful, you drop a big fucking spotlight on it and say "NUH HUH! THAT'S FUCKING BULLSHIT!" Because if you don't do that, you get people actually thinking that, "It's really about ethics in games' journalism".

Let's say a White guy, a Black guy, a White woman, and an Indian woman each make a game. Are the games going be to be of any more high or low quality because of each person's race or gender, or because of each person's writing and developing abilities?

No.

However when the scenario is that 80% of the people making games are white, you lose certain perspectives when it comes to how things actually play out. The scope of your project becomes narrowed, and that CAN result in something that comes off as deleteriously samey. That's not to say that it definitely WILL, but it might. When it comes to works of art created by teams, having a multitude of different perspectives is important.

I liken it to sports animes. Sure, most sports animes are built around the cultural and structural basis of japanese high schools. But when they elevate themselves to a worldly setting, and all of a sudden people of color don't exist, you get a story that makes far less sense.

 

[Armaros]

Let's say a White guy, a Black guy, a White woman, and an Indian woman each make a game. Are the games going be to be of any more high or low quality because of each person's race or gender, or because of each person's writing and developing abilities?

Their experiences of being a minority or a women in a white/male dominated profession will have no bearing on their writing?

 

[Pastry]

Let's say a White guy, a Black guy, a White woman, and an Indian woman each make a game. Are the games going be to be of any more high or low quality because of each person's race or gender, or because of each person's writing and developing abilities?

Chances are their life experiences will be reflected in the game. With no diversification you get white guy's perspective #3,000

 

[Neoriceisgood]

If you saw malice in his comment, that's on you.

He didn't simply ask about rumors, he expressed explicit disdain that nobody felt "Sorry" for the vaguely described people in the unsourced rumors.

Do I think that's as bad as Smellyfingers malicious shitpost? Obviously not.


But as I, and many others have expressed, it is at best a clumsy way to enter a discussion. People reacted accordingly.

 

[Kinsei]

What should people be doing? Getting involved in flame wars on video game forums? Posting messages of support?

Those would be nice from the gamer side of things. Developers and publishers should be doing more to speak out on this stuff.

Of course neither of those things will happen as most people are perfectly content with the current status quo.

 

[kitschykitty]

Let's say a White guy, a Black guy, a White woman, and an Indian woman each make a game. Are the games going be to be of any more high or low quality because of each person's race or gender, or because of each person's writing and developing abilities?

Their diverse backgrounds bring a unique perspective to every game they work on, this isn't that uncommon in any industry, diversity breeds diverse and unique ideas.

 

[erragal]

Change can't be unilateral.

Extant in our social systems are the unrealistic weight of ambition and provider expectations for men. Women have, rightfully, been given more options to compete with men on what is closer to a plane of equality. Relationship dynamics have not kept pace with social equity, our traditional relationship dynamics/pressures are still in place.

The most significant thing women can do to smooth the transition is help perpetuate an acceptance and social attraction for men as caretakers, supportive personalities within a relationship.

Just as media imagery is malicious and dangerous for young women in pegging their self worth to body image, these same themes persist in outmoded concepts of masculinity that only functioned when distribution of roles were rigidly structured.

None of this is an excuse for the atrocious garbage behavior people engage in. But ignoring the legitimate (if disgustingly articulated by immature children) genesis of this venom is dangerous. Social change can never be unilateral or you just create new imbalances, and conflict results.

Unfortunately these complicated issues are being argued by those most willing, but least capable of this change. The influences of greatest impact on our culture profit off human insecurities. There's no impetus for change from within when the business model is selling something better than the injustice of reality.

Equality in fantasy is no fantasy at all? Escape, retreat from the sands shifting under your feet, only to find there's no place where the free falling stops.

You can have empathy for all people without legitimizing terrible actions.

 

[mgs2master2]

Where have you been the past year?

I been avoiding threads like these because last time I posted my opinion and a joke (in my opinion), I was banned for a month and called a GGer which isn't true. I decided to give this thread and read and see what's this about. I guess I been lucky to a degree?

True, you only have her at her word, but on the other hand this stuff isn't exactly mainstream news, nor is it easily verifiable anyhow (not like there's public recording of emails to try and blacklist people from different game companies.)

True, you may be right on this. So unless we have others speak up, it's just her statements at the moment. It will be interesting to see what develops next.

Edit:

We need a way for people to cut through the bullshit. I'll take the blame, usually I'm the one to post this, I just didn't think it would be necessary this time.

Everything you need to know about gamergate, Zoe Quinn, Anita Sarkessian and Brianna Wu in a nutshell.

This is probably what I needed to be informed. Thank you.

 

[kcp12304]

Let's say a White guy, a Black guy, a White woman, and an Indian woman each make a game. Are the games going be to be of any more high or low quality because of each person's race or gender, or because of each person's writing and developing abilities?

What if that game is set in India or has a Black character. Those employees could bring a different perspective to the creative side of games. You can tell different and more interesting stories than when your talent comes from different backgrounds. Different art, stories, music, environments, settings.

 

[Glass Shark]

Let's say a White guy, a Black guy, a White woman, and an Indian woman each make a game. Are the games going be to be of any more high or low quality because of each person's race or gender, or because of each person's writing and developing abilities?

I honestly believe that games would be better if more people that aren't white dudes were represented better in the industry. Right now we're getting the same boring games over and over, and it's indicative of the type of people making games.

 

[CrowDieSlow]

What you just said sounds so callous and lacking in empathy.

When a large portion of your talents might just leave or stay away it becomes a problem to the quality of games we make. I'm concerned that the next Portal (made by Kim Swift) might not be made. Plenty of developers (male and female) agree. These are our fellow nerds (male and female) who are being pushed out. We should care.

Well, I'm not the most empathetic person in the world. I like to see results, and I don't care where they come from.

GGers are not running males out the industry

The women are being run out because they are women.

To try to ignore that is to try to downplay the harassment.

I'm not ignoring or downplaying anything. I'm saying that it shouldn't matter in the first place.

Issue is that too few of us does the right thing when seeing those jerks in action.

What is the "right thing" in this situation?

 

[Palette Swap]

That's hardly the same thing. It's not anyone's responsibility to handle angry mobs that follow a person around. If it isn't happening internally, it really isn't their problem.

You're shifting the issue by equating having someone on your workforce who's harassed (or outspoken about it) with handling harassers.

This is a terrible HR/management standard to hold and it effectively empowers harassers by sending the signal it totally works to ostracize people. If anything, it's an incentive for harassers to be more active. In short, that very notion of baggage is part of the problem.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Let's say a White guy, a Black guy, a White woman, and an Indian woman each make a game. Are the games going be to be of any more high or low quality because of each person's race or gender, or because of each person's writing and developing abilities?

Games, especially big-budget ones, are collaborative products, so your example doesn't really work right off the bat.

But let's say I have a choice between a game made by a dev team consisting of all the people you described, or a game made by a vast majority of white men. I'd take the former in a heartbeat. Doesn't mean the second group makes bad games, but various cultural backgrounds bring different point of views on a project, so more chances of making something unique.

But if you only like your yearly Madden and CoD releases to be as safe as possible, then yeah, I guess diversity in a development team wouldn't really matter to you.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

Let's say a White guy, a Black guy, a White woman, and an Indian woman each make a game. Are the games going be to be of any more high or low quality because of each person's race or gender, or because of each person's writing and developing abilities?

One thing you can be certain of is that the two women will be far more likely to be targeted for harassment, stalking, etc, and that perceived flaws in their works will be addressed with less care, and in all likelyhood, their gender will be a point that many critics focus on.

edit: and of course, if the games made by women are in any way representative of a belief that the #GG types take issue with, they'll tear them apart over that too.

 

[CrowDieSlow]

Chances are their life experiences will be reflected in the game. With no diversification you get white guy's perspective #3,000

Their diverse backgrounds bring a unique perspective to every game they work on, this isn't that uncommon in any industry, diversity breeds diverse and unique ideas.

What if that game is set in India or has a Black character. Those employees could bring a different perspective to the creative side of games. You can tell different and more interesting stories than when your talent comes from different backgrounds. Different art, stories, music, environments, settings.

Uniqueness and diversity don't inherently translate into quality. If a game has those things and is a genuinely good game, than it's going to be just that; a genuinely good game.

 

[Glass Shark]

I'm not ignoring or downplaying anything. I'm saying that it shouldn't matter in the first place.

You're right. Ideally it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter what someone's race or gender or religion or anything else is. But we don't live in an ideal world. We live in this world. And in this world, it does matter. And we should be striving to make that better every day.

 

[The Technomancer]

Uniqueness and diversity don't inherently translate into quality. If a game has those things and is a genuinely good game, than it's going to be just that; a genuinely good game.

That seems to be dancing around the point. You never get a chance to have both diverse and high quality experiences if the environment they spring from doesn't reflect that diversity. Unless you think white guys just make better games

 

[GeordieMark]

I can sense her frustration reading that blog, and I'm totally behind the fact that nobody should have to put up with persistent and serious harassment for doing the job they love.

That said, I really dislike the way she writes in such an overly dramatic, tumblr-esq way. That kind of style just instantly switches me off, even when I agree.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

Uniqueness and diversity don't inherently translate into quality. If a game has those things and is a genuinely good game, than it's going to be just that; a genuinely good game.

I seriously don't get what you're trying to say. Homogenisation doesn't matter as long as the Metacritic score is good? Did you notice homogenisation is seriously starting to bring the scores down on a lot of AAA releases?

 

[CrowDieSlow]

You're shifting the issue by equating having someone on your workforce who's harassed (or outspoken about it) with handling harassers.

This is a terrible HR/management standard to hold and it effectively empowers harassers by sending the signal it totally works to ostracize people. If anything, it's an incentive for harassers to be more active. In short, that very notion of baggage is part of the problem.

How did I shift anything? You're speaking from the standpoint of someone being harassed within their workplace. In this case, this is a person being unable to get work because potential employers don't want to deal with the angry mob this particular person has following them around. What obligation does an employer have to someone that doesn't work for them?

 

[Glass Shark]

CrowDieSlow is like two posts away from using the word "egalitarian." I can sense it.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Uniqueness and diversity don't inherently translate into quality. If a game has those things and is a genuinely good game, than it's going to be just that; a genuinely good game.

Do I want to know how you judge game quality?

 

[Guri]

Engaging with GG was one of the most awful things that I did. It was beginning to destroy me emotionally. I had to stop reading any of their comments. I'm happy that I stopped talking to one of their supporters before all of this started. And the weird thing is that they keep this weird narrative about that horrible blog post, especially considering it was proven a lie a few hours after it was made public.

I have the privilege to be able to stop interacting with them. I used the blocklist after they flooded the GDC hashtags, since I wanted to follow what was happening in the panels, and frankly my timeline has been way better since then. But it's heartbreaking that, for people like Zoe and Anita, what I did is not enough. I already expressed my support to Zoe last year and it was a great feeling, but I wish I could help more.

Besides me, I have a few friends who were harassed by GG and it was also hard to see that. To the user who previously said that Zoe should just move on to another industry, that would only result in her unhappiness and GG moving on to the next target. And, if you apply the same logic, suddenly there's no game industry anymore. Zoe created a free site to support people harassed, is constantly going to the US Congress to discuss this issue and has less time to develop games bacuse of this. Going away would be the easiest thing, but she chose to fight, and that's commendable.

I know some organisations, like the IGDA and Intel, have been coming up with good ways to help against the diversity issue. I talked to someone from IGDA a few months ago, who was a GG target, by the way, and it was refreshing to read what they had to say about this. I am one of the directors from a studio, so I can help create an atmosphere there that is friendly to minorities and respect their wishes and space. I can also promote games led by women, people of colour and/or LBGTQ on social media and I also invite you guys to do that more often.

 

[IcyStorm]

That said, I really dislike the way she writes in such an overly dramatic, tumblr-esq way. That kind of style just instantly switches me off, even when I agree.

God forbid she writes the way she wants on her Tumblr?

 

[Kinsei]

How did I shift anything? You're speaking from the standpoint of someone being harassed within their workplace. In this case, this is a person being unable to get work because potential employers don't want to deal with the angry mob this particular person has following them around. What obligation does an employer have to someone that doesn't work for them?

There is no obligation, it just makes them assholes.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Uniqueness and diversity don't inherently translate into quality. If a game has those things and is a genuinely good game, than it's going to be just that; a genuinely good game.

You're totally missing the point. A diverse workforce is healthier for the entire industry. It improves the quality of gaming by creating a larger more diverse library to choose from.

 

[Mael]

I don't care about this woman as she is a moron like sarkeesian. I don't care about the minute scale of misogyny they seem to think is going to throw the planet off it's axis. I also don't care about crappy reviewers because i don't even bother with them anymore.

The people harassing her do need to understand that she will change nothing as the industry doesn't care about her sob story and the cool thing is that isn't even a problem. I feel no need to send hateful messages to this woman because she isn't going to ruin my hobby with her BS, mobile gaming is.

And people don't understand why I welcome the golden age of mobile!

 

[Mesoian]

There is no obligation, it just makes them assholes.

Let's not get crazy here. It doesn't make them assholes, it makes them unempathetic. You pick and choose your battles, and sometimes that means you don't get involved. Calling someone an asshole for doing as such is very narrow minded.

Uniqueness and diversity don't inherently translate into quality. If a game has those things and is a genuinely good game, than it's going to be just that; a genuinely good game.

Wait wait wait.

So your point with that, white, black, indian comment was that there WOULD be a difference in quality?

 

[GeordieMark]

God forbid she writes the way she wants on her Tumblr?

Never said she couldn't. Just said I don't care much for it.

 

[Toxi]

That said, I really dislike the way she writes in such an overly dramatic, tumblr-esq way. That kind of style just instantly switches me off, even when I agree.

I'm pretty sure writing in a tumblr-esq way is mandatory if you're writing on tumblr.

 

[CrowDieSlow]

You're right. Ideally it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter what someone's race or gender or religion or anything else is. But we don't live in an ideal world. We live in this world. And in this world, it does matter. And we should be striving to make that better every day.

If we're trying to make things better, shouldn't we aspire to make things they should be? Which in this case would be making these things not matter?

That seems to be dancing around the point. You never get a chance to have both diverse and high quality experiences if the environment they spring from doesn't reflect that diversity. Unless you think white guys just make better games

I'm not dancing around any point, I just want good games and I don't care who makes them or where they come from.

I seriously don't get what you're trying to say. Homogenisation doesn't matter as long as the Metacritic score is good? Did you notice homogenisation is seriously starting to bring the scores down on a lot of AAA releases?

I'm say that I want good games. Period. I don't care about review scores, I want games that I will personally enjoy, and that doesn't require the people making them to be of any specific gender or race.

 

[FullmetalPain]

One of the worst things about the whole GamerGate debacle is the industry's overall non-reaction.

Cheaper, easier, safer to stay quiet, shut out the small number of victims, placate or at least try not to anger the larger number of harassers, hope the whole thing goes away.

It's shameful.

Very true and kind of surprising to me really.

 

[The Technomancer]

If we're trying to make things better, shouldn't we aspire to make things they should be? Which in this case would be making these things not matter?



I'm not dancing around any point, I just want good games and I don't care who makes them or where they come from.

Okay, but can you understand why, for people of different backgrounds and experiences, seeing their experiences reflected in the games they play might increase the quality for them?

 

[Kinsei]

Let's not get crazy here. It doesn't make them assholes, it makes them unempathetic. You pick and choose your battles, and sometimes that means you don't get involved. Calling someone an asshole for doing as such is very narrow minded.

Not coming out against a hate group that has driven people to attempt suicide makes you (not "you" but you as in the company) an asshole in my eyes.

 

[Bust Nak]

Let's say a White guy, a Black guy, a White woman, and an Indian woman each make a game. Are the games going be to be of any more high or low quality because of each person's race or gender, or because of each person's writing and developing abilities?

Nope, it's not about quality but diversity.

Now lets suppose a white guy and a black guy each makes a game while the white woman and Indian woman don't make any games for fear of harassment, is the industry more or less health than the scenario you proposed? That's the status quo unless things change.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

And the weird thing is that they keep this weird narrative about that horrible blog post, especially considering it was proven a lie a few hours after it was made public.

Eventhough they've gained infamy for their blatant and endless harassment, Gamergate is at its core a conspiracy movement through and through.


Generally speaking people who are part of a conspiracy movement perpetuate cult-like behavior and absolutely refuse to let go of their constructed narrative/"Facts" even when outright refuted.
(This is also why people who dislike Anita will keep up the "Scam artist" conspiracy eventhough she's been providing the exact content she got paid for & more; A conspiratorial group is essentially immunized on any facts/nuance related to their pet peeve.)

 

[Mesoian]

Not coming out against a hate group that has driven people to attempt suicide makes you (not "you" but you as in the company) an asshole in my eyes.

I understand why you would think that way, but there's a much deeper political methodology that has to be considered for most companies. Just look at Adobe, who got their face scraped through the dirt trying to come out on top with this whole mess.

I know the whole gamergate issue has evolved into one much larger than anyone thought it would, but let's not forget that 99% of the time, the best way to deal with mewling crazy people is to not give them the time of day.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I'm not dancing around any point, I just want good games and I don't care who makes them or where they come from.

I'm say that I want good games. Period. I don't care about review scores, I want games that I will personally enjoy, and that doesn't require the people making them to be of any specific gender or race.

We get it, you want games you enjoy. Guess what? We all do. But some of us are sick of "White dude-bro shoots Brown people in the Middle-east XIV". This is especially true for those of certain demographics that are either underrepresented or worse, shown almost exclusively as the bad guy, in games. Are you really that selfish and/or lack the empathy to feel for these people?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Spot on, nobody can come off as properly professional or even slightly serious writing like that. Watch the hard core calling you a victim blamer for pointing it out, though.

I always enjoy these posts that only predict how people will react to posts, they really make me appreciate & respect the person making these insightful replies for their contribution.

 

[Armaros]

Spot on, nobody can come off as properly professional or even slightly serious writing like that. Watch the hard core calling you a victim blamer for pointing it out, though.

Oh you mean the myriad of previous GG threads were people stated how they don't care about her harassment because they found her annoying?

But never mind enjoy your persecution complex about the ability to talk about some getting harassed because you don't like their writing style.

 

[CrowDieSlow]

Do I want to know how you judge game quality?

I can tell you if you want. One and only criteria: Do I enjoy this game?

There is no obligation, it just makes them assholes.

*Shrug* If you say so.

You're totally missing the point. A diverse workforce is healthier for the entire industry. It improves the quality of gaming by creating a larger more diverse library to choose from.

I'm not missing any point, and I'm not against diversification. I'm just saying that diversity or the lack of diversity isn't going to stop me from enjoying a game or enjoy it more just on the merits of it being the creation of a diverse group of talented people.

 

[IcyStorm]

I'm not dancing around any point, I just want good games and I don't care who makes them or where they come from.

I'm say that I want good games. Period. I don't care about review scores, I want games that I will personally enjoy, and that doesn't require the people making them to be of any specific gender or race.

And that's great for you, but many, many, MANY other people also want games to show different things than what studios of mostly white men provide us. We want a variety of perspectives that are about wildly different things at different levels of scale. Sure indie development is an option for that, but why can't we also have AAA games that do the same thing?

And these other perspectives? They matter. They matter to many people to see their own experiences, something they can empathize with more, something that they can relate to, on the screen.

 

[Deleted member 126221]

I'm say that I want good games. Period. I don't care about review scores, I want games that I will personally enjoy, and that doesn't require the people making them to be of any specific gender or race.

Well, good for you I guess? But a large portion of the gaming audience asks for more varied experiences, and the best way to get there would be to have more diversity in the actual development teams.

 

[Charles Brandon]

companies don't have a moral duty to do anything. The directors are obligated to maximise profit within the law for the shareholders. That's it. No company director is going to be well advised take a public stance on something like this

 

[Mesoian]

I'm say that I want good games. Period. I don't care about review scores, I want games that I will personally enjoy, and that doesn't require the people making them to be of any specific gender or race.

Serious question.

Would you say that you are satisfied with the end result of more than 75% of AAA developed games?

companies don't have a moral duty to do anything. The directors are obligated to maximise profit within the law for the shareholders. That's it. No company director is going to be well advised take a public stance on something like this

Except, you know...Intel

But you're right, there is no obligation. Which is why it stands out when companies DO make the decision to take a stand, even if the outcrying of said position is surface level at best.

 

[Kinsei]

Spot on, nobody can come off as properly professional or even slightly serious writing like that. Watch the hard core calling you a victim blamer for pointing it out, though.

Huh.

Y'know I'd really like to know what you meant in that PM when you said I'd get my ass beat if I was in your town.