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[Durante]

Really depends on how it's designed. With a single screen that delivers one image to each eye via optics, you'd sacrifice a lot of resolution and vertical FoV if you wanted to use it as a generic head-mounted display for standard wide-screen content because that's really not what it's designed for.

Virtual cinema would work better for that type of setup, but that's also more complex to implement since it requires you to re-project the traditional content onto a screen in a 3D world.

I don't think implementation effort is really much of an issue with virtual cinema (I think someone whipped up the first one within days of the Rift dev kit release). Resolution is. With a 1080p display you will effectively have below 720p resolution for your movie.

 

[meanspartan]

I hope this doesn't end up like Move or their 3d tv they made.

I am totally ignorant about these things, so can someone fill me in on how the Ps4 can achieve VR?

It is managing to get to 1080p on most games but just barely, usually requiring 30fps to do so. So how is it gonna power VR? Doesn't a VR headset require 2x1080p?

Are all VR games gonna look like Ps2/earlyPs3 games or something?

AGain, 100% ignorant here, so let me know.

 

[TheKastorian]

Yeah I'd say there is a 99% chance delay was to make driveclub a vr game.

I would make that 99.999%

 

[orioto]

I'm not sure that it is without some extensive redesign. In terms of visuals and the flow of movement it would be spectacular in VR, and the sense of scale of the dunes and ruins etc. But when you consider the mechanics of the fabric elements (for instance the length of your scarf determines how long you can float), and the amount of atmosphere that is achieved with fabric movement of your character's clothing (different weather conditions), the animation of the character generating an emotional response when you can see the struggle... all this would be lost in first person. It's not so much a VR problem but a first person problem. Journey is not a first person game. You can turn it into one, but it would be a very different game.

Of course most people still act like the only thing you can do with VR is first person.. I'm really looking forward the game that will open people's eyes about that.

 

[riflen]

I hope this doesn't end up like Move or their 3d tv they made.

I am totally ignorant about these things, so can someone fill me in on how the Ps4 can achieve VR?

It is managing to get to 1080p on most games but just barely, usually requiring 30fps to do so. So how is it gonna power VR? Doesn't a VR headset require 2x1080p?

Are all VR games gonna look like Ps2/earlyPs3 games or something?

AGain, 100% ignorant here, so let me know.

We can only speculate. Maybe we'll know after GDC in a week or so.

 

[gofreak]

And as I mentioned; 1080p is also not to draw-distance friendly. 800p in DK1 was horrendous, 1080p is a step up, but not enough to escape pixel-soup in the distance. I even have my doubts on driving games, and I fear flight simulators are out of the question for several years yet, unless Oculus goes for a higher res in the CV.

It'll be interesting to see the quality. They'll probably be spitting out 2x the res of DK1, but maybe they can selectively apply some aa techniques on distant geometry if the res boost alone wasn't sufficient. If they can afford it.

 

[Orayn]

I don't think implementation effort is really much of an issue with virtual cinema (I think someone whipped up the first one within days of the Rift dev kit release). Resolution is. With a 1080p display you will effectively have below 720p resolution for your movie.

Right, wasn't really thinking about that. Either way, a VR headset similar to Oculus or Valve's prototype wouldn't make a very good replacement for Sony's HMZ series.

 

[lordfroakie]

I hope a .hack game is made with this tech *.*

 

[gofreak]

I hope this doesn't end up like Move or their 3d tv they made.

I am totally ignorant about these things, so can someone fill me in on how the Ps4 can achieve VR?

It is managing to get to 1080p on most games but just barely, usually requiring 30fps to do so. So how is it gonna power VR? Doesn't a VR headset require 2x1080p?

It's likely to have a 1080p screen. So to drive that at native res would mean 1080p, not 1080px2. The res would be split between the two eyes.

It's possible the screen might have a higher res still, but the output resolution from the box is unlikely to be more than 1080p split between the two eyes.

 

[mrklaw]

Can't really see the point of putting official weight behind a gimped version for PC. Don't think devs would support it if it wasn't feature compatible with OR (e.g. with positional tracking from the camera).

Like I said, I wouldn't expect official support from Sony. But you need to think a little outside of the box.

What do you need for VR?
- Orientation tracking is hopefully via USB - so you should be able to get that working on a PC
- video out. Presumably HDMI, hopefully with a passthrough. Again, should be easily drivable from a PC
- warping. If they use a similar setup as the OR, this would just need a custom warp shader which I'd expect the community to do pretty quickly.
- positional tracking. In theory the tricky one as the Ps4 camera has a proprietary connector. So, just don't use it. If the headset has LEDs, just use a standard PC webcam to do the tracking, and then output the positional information. You would need to produce a wrapper or something to convert into OR-friendly data so replacing he PS4 camera shouldn't be a major issue.

 

[bj00rn_]

Seat simulator games like racing or flying are probably the easiest ones to port that will work out pretty well and would be a new experience for anyone who hasn't done it before.

But it wouldn't be the "best" VR experience in my opinion. A red carpet flagship VR title should rather be a shaped and unique combination of suspense AND emotion in an almost-impossible to access setting. A racing game isn't exactly going the extra mile in this context.

Anyway, I'm excited to see what Sony comes up with. I hope they will surprise us, because that would make for healthy competition and better products for all of us.

 

[iceatcs]

Already in the other thread

Maybe VR or Move game for Infamous? I suspect it could be nothing like mini game on website.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT-bmgJMkm0

[Edit] Likely DS4 touchpad demo. After look again.

 

[TheJerit]

We can only speculate. Maybe we'll know after GDC in a week or so.

Agreed. If this thing does get introduced, shit's about to get reeaaal interesting....

 

[Mr.Green]

I hope this doesn't end up like Move or their 3d tv they made.

I am totally ignorant about these things, so can someone fill me in on how the Ps4 can achieve VR?

It is managing to get to 1080p on most games but just barely, usually requiring 30fps to do so. So how is it gonna power VR? Doesn't a VR headset require 2x1080p?

Are all VR games gonna look like Ps2/earlyPs3 games or something?

AGain, 100% ignorant here, so let me know.

They'll have to tone down the eye candy a lot. Which could lead to devs spending a little less time on visuals and more on everything else. It's a win-win situation as far as I'm concerned.

 

[meanspartan]

It's likely to have a 1080p screen. So to drive that at native res would mean 1080p, not 1080px2. The res would be split between the two eyes.

It's possible the screen might have a higher res still, but the output resolution from the box is unlikely to be more than 1080p split between the two eyes.

Ah ok. Well if that's the case, they could even go 720p if need be. I heard the 720p version of the Oculus was still pretty decent.

I think I was mixing up VR with 3d (which requires 2x I believe).

 

[Finalizer]

If this really happens, I'd be surprised if Driveclub wasn't one of the flagship titles for PSVR. I also suspect that Sony hopes that their chumminess with the indie folk will net them some extra bits of VR software by those already interested in Oculus and wouldn't mind porting their work to consoles.

 

[meanspartan]

They'll have to tone down the eye candy a lot. Which could lead to devs spending a little less time on visuals and more on everything else. It's a win-win situation as far as I'm concerned.

It can work. I was thrilled to see the cideos of the Original Zelda Oculus Rift game they made, because it could easily run on probably even entry level PCs and it looked AMAZING. I still haven't tried Oculus Rift but I want to very badly.

If Sony pulls it off, I can live with having the Ps4 do 1080p fanciness for games on my TV, and Ps3 level stuff if its in VR.

Remake Killzone 2, maybe a Killzone collection on Ps4, with VR headset support, and I am in day 1.

 

[StuBurns]

I hope this doesn't end up like Move or their 3d tv they made.

I am totally ignorant about these things, so can someone fill me in on how the Ps4 can achieve VR?

riflen is correct, we can only speculate, but I shall try.

It is managing to get to 1080p on most games but just barely, usually requiring 30fps to do so. So how is it gonna power VR? Doesn't a VR headset require 2x1080p?

Firstly, you're mistaken. PS4 isn't struggling to hit 30fps at 1080p, plenty of PS4 games are 1080p/60fps.

As for requirements, VR needs basically 1080p/60fps, but it does need stereo rendering, which does mean additional performance. Brute forcing 3D on PC tends to cost about 50% performance, so if a game ran at 1080p/60fps in 2D, you would expect about 1080p/40fps in 3D. Compromises will have to be made if a game was targeted to 1080p/60fps in 2D.

Are all VR games gonna look like Ps2/earlyPs3 games or something?

No, it is more than capable of delivering better than the best of PS3 graphics in VR.

 

[mrklaw]

I don't think implementation effort is really much of an issue with virtual cinema (I think someone whipped up the first one within days of the Rift dev kit release). Resolution is. With a 1080p display you will effectively have below 720p resolution for your movie.

I think Oculus already talked about a future version having something like android built in, so you could watch movies, basic things etc without needing to be tethered to a PC

 

[gofreak]

Like I said, I wouldn't expect official support from Sony. But you need to think a little outside of the box.

What do you need for VR?
- Orientation tracking is hopefully via USB - so you should be able to get that working on a PC
- video out. Presumably HDMI, hopefully with a passthrough. Again, should be easily drivable from a PC
- warping. If they use a similar setup as the OR, this would just need a custom warp shader which I'd expect the community to do pretty quickly.
- positional tracking. In theory the tricky one as the Ps4 camera has a proprietary connector. So, just don't use it. If the headset has LEDs, just use a standard PC webcam to do the tracking, and then output the positional information. You would need to produce a wrapper or something to convert into OR-friendly data so replacing he PS4 camera shouldn't be a major issue.

I can definitely see people hacking out libraries for using a PS hmd on PC, but I don't think it would get much or any game support. It would be for tinkerers/researchers - if there was any value to using it vs a more out-of-the-box solution from OR or whatever.

The way to game support would be official support from Sony with official libraries and integrations with middleware etc.

 

[mrklaw]

I can definitely see people hacking out libraries for using a PS hmd on PC, but I don't think it would get much or any game support. It would be for tinkerers/researchers - if there was any value to using it vs a more out-of-the-box solution from OR or whatever.

The way to game support would be official support from Sony with official libraries and integrations with middleware etc.

Nah, if it can get drivers to simulate an OR, then I can see some people using it instead of an OR (especially if hey have a PS4), much like some people choose to use a DS3/4 on PC

 

[Canis lupus]

Sony's VR will boost OR too. Having VR on the best selling next gen system will bring the tech to the masses, in a few years time, possibly by the time PS5 gets out, it'll be a mainstream thing. Since AAA games are in 95pct of the cases designed with consoles in mind, games will be designed with VR in mind. The concepts of a dozen genres will change.

OR, and pc gaming alone will NEVER make this tech big. Only around 10 percent of Steam users have a rig that is better or comparable to PS4 according to the hw stats, and even a lesser percentage has that rig that do VR good. We know PS4 is too slow to do conventional VR the way OR does, Sony must have something groundbreaking to show that it works on weaker systems without damaging the immersion.

 

[meanspartan]

riflen is correct, we can only speculate, but I shall try.

Firstly, you're mistaken. PS4 isn't struggling to hit 30fps at 1080p, plenty of PS4 games are 1080p/60fps.

As for requirements, VR needs basically 1080p/60fps, but it does need stereo rendering, which does mean additional performance. Brute forcing 3D on PC tends to cost about 50% performance, so if a game ran at 1080p/60fps in 2D, you would expect about 1080p/40fps in 3D. Compromises will have to be made if a game was targeted to 1080p/60fps in 2D.

No, it is more than capable of delivering better than the best of PS3 graphics in VR.

I appreciate all the info! Thank you. Now I am a lot more excited I was def seemingly mixing up 3d with VR I think.

 

[Suzushiiro]

Yeah I'd say there is a 99% chance delay was to make driveclub a vr game.

I don't think they said "let's delay Driveclub so it can work with the VR headset," it's more likely that they said "Driveclub isn't going to be ready for launch, so if we're going to delay it anyway we may as well put in VR support."

 

[StuBurns]

I appreciate all the info! Thank you. Now I am a lot more excited I was def seemingly mixing up 3d with VR I think.

The thing everyone gets confused about is the resolution, and it's our fault, because when people say 1080p, people think they mean 1920x1080p, but in VR it's 960x1080, which is obviously way way less demanding.

If it was 1920x1080x2, it would be much much more punishing on the hardware, yeah.

 

[Russell]

You realize that there is profit for VR beyond games right? One thing Oculus Rift has going for it is it can be used in the medical field, architecture, and so on.. Its actually "asinine" to have the device stuck to a limited closed device.

Sony needs to maintain a laser-like focus on making the PS4 VR device compatible ONLY with the PlayStation 4 console. Sony needs to make the VR device almost completely inseparable, on a very deep level, from the PS4. By that, I mean -- when connected, it would use all the power and capabilities that the PS4 has to offer. In a very important way, the VR device and the PS4 console will be like one unit, working effortlessly with each other.

In this context, Sony's ONLY concern needs to be with the PlayStation 4 ecosystem. The worst thing Sony can do is make it compatible with personal computers or some other shit.

Saying the PS4 VR device should be compatible with personal computers, or used with the medical field (or other field), is just as revolting as when I hear people say that Nintendo should put their most popular franchises on non-Nintendo hardware.

 

[Mr.Green]

If Sony pulls it off, I can live with having the Ps4 do 1080p fanciness for games on my TV, and Ps3 level stuff if its in VR.

Remake Killzone 2, maybe a Killzone collection on Ps4, with VR headset support, and I am in day 1.

Low persistence requires at least 90Hz according to VR specialists. So unless Sony has some magical tech no one has heard of yet, I highly doubt the PS4 can run PS3 level graphics in stereo at 90 frames per second.

 

[Durante]

As for requirements, VR needs basically 1080p/60fps, but it does need stereo rendering, which does mean additional performance.

That's why I was asking earlier in the thread whether people expect a low-persistence screen. Because if so (and unless they come up with some entirely novel way to do it) 60 FPS won't be enough.

Low persistence requires at least 90Hz according to VR specialists.

I think the lowest number I've heard is 75.

 

[Rogue_Ledr]

Why wouldn't Sony support its VR headset with the PC? It would only make the peripheral more versatile and in turn, more viable and appealing. If Sony wants to compete effectively with OR, having PC support should be a priority.

 

[StuBurns]

That's why I was asking earlier in the thread whether people expect a low-persistence screen. Because if so (and unless they come up with some entirely novel way to do it) 60 FPS won't be enough.

We still don't really know, apparently CC doesn't have flicker, and apparently it's 72Hz, so what is the golden number? If it's 72, there's no reason Sony can't hit it, if it's 95, that's a much bigger task.

I want to know what the implications to game design are at those speeds, animations are key-framed at 30, does it mean we have interpolated animations with pull-down?

Requirements for VR, versus requirements for Valve's vision of robust 'presence' are not the same though.

 

[Mr.Green]

I think the lowest number I've heard is 75.

I could be wrong but I know CC is 90Hz and I think Palmer said they wouldn't go below that.

 

[meanspartan]

We still don't really know, apparently CC doesn't have flicker, and apparently it's 72Hz, so what is the golden number? If it's 72, there's no reason Sony can't hit it, if it's 95, that's a much bigger task.

I want to know what the implications to game design are at those speeds, animations are key-framed at 30, does it mean we have interpolated animations with pull-down?

Requirements for VR, versus requirements for Valve's vision of robust 'presence' are not the same though.

Couldn't they drop the resolution to make the "golden number" easier to obtain? Like say, 1600x900 instead of 1920x1080?

Or does going below 1080p hurt the experience too much? Like I stated earlier, from what I've read online, the 720p version of the Oculus while not perfect was still a pretty cool experience.

 

[StuBurns]

Couldn't they drop the resolution to make the "golden number" easier to obtain? Like say, 1600x900 instead of 1920x1080?

Or does going below 1080p hurt the experience too much? Like I stated earlier, from what I've read online, the 720p version of the Oculus while not perfect was still a pretty cool experience.

Well fill-rate wise 60 to 72 isn't a huge issue, in fact, if it's 960x960 instead of 960x1080, and I believe it would be, you're saving 230k per frame, which is more than another six frames per second.

But 95, which Valve's unit is, is a much bigger jump.

 

[androvsky]

That's why I was asking earlier in the thread whether people expect a low-persistence screen. Because if so (and unless they come up with some entirely novel way to do it) 60 FPS won't be enough.

I think the lowest number I've heard is 75.

I think the refresh requirement is higher if the low persistence screen is using strobing or scanning, like a CRT or lightboost, and that's to cut down on flicker. If everyone remembers ye olde CRT monitors, 72 Hz was where the flicker went away for most people and monitors, but the phosphors had a bit of persistence and they weren't filling people's field of view.

If it's just a normal OLED that's displaying an image until it receives a new image, then the refresh requirement is probably a lot lower. A normal LCD isn't acceptable since it takes too long for the screen to update, resulting in blur. An OLED has a much lower persistence than an LCD without having to resort to strobing, even if Oculus went ahead and added strobing anyway.

 

[Rodney McKay]

I'm really interested in seeing who is going to be first to release the first one of these VR headsets to retail.

I'm seriously looking forward to these, but I don't want to wait another year or two.

 

[esterk]

If anyone can make me want anything VR related, it's Sony. Hope it's good.

 

[Mr.Green]

An OLED has a much lower persistence than an LCD without having to resort to strobing, even if Oculus went ahead and added strobing anyway.

You wouldn't have to resort to strobing with OLED if you could render at 1 or 2 Khz... Otherwise you'll still get horrible motion blur.

 

[Durante]

I think the refresh requirement is higher if the low persistence screen is using strobing or scanning, like a CRT or lightboost, and that's to cut down on flicker. If everyone remembers ye olde CRT monitors, 72 Hz was where the flicker went away for most people and monitors, but the phosphors had a bit of persistence and they weren't filling people's field of view.

If it's just a normal OLED that's displaying an image until it receives a new image, then the refresh requirement is probably a lot lower. A normal LCD isn't acceptable since it takes too long for the screen to update, resulting in blur. An OLED has a much lower persistence than an LCD without having to resort to strobing, even if Oculus went ahead and added strobing anyway.

The blur which strobing prevents is unrelated to the blur produced by pixel switching times on TFT displays. It happens even with the (almost) instantaneous pixel switching on OLED and is caused by how our eyes interpret the information. That's why they strobe the display.

 

[Sandy Nipples]

Should be awesome for things like media, though, shit, seems like you need a beast of a PC just to make the Rift spin at the moment, given the resolution etc. Still excited to see what patents and shit Sony brings to the table.

 

[BloodMoney]

I'm really interested in seeing who is going to be first to release the first one of these VR headsets to retail.

I'm seriously looking forward to these, but I don't want to wait another year or two.

Driveclub + VR launch bundle in the fall, believe
/hopes&dreams

 

[IvorB]

My sister-in-law's youngest son just bought an Oculus Rift, and was telling me about how amazing it was. She said she kept playing Half-Life 2 on it despite it making her so motion sick that she'd have to lie down for an hour afterwards to recover. I don't remember her saying she vomited though.

She also told me that the sense of "being there" was so strong that in the HL2 intro she felt she could smell the garbage dumpsters as she walked past.

My girlfriend felt really ill and had to take it off every twenty seconds when we tried it, and had to stop after around 30 mins. I felt it a bit at first too, but I was fine after 20 minutes or so, so YMMV.

Motion sickness didn't mean only vomit - there are different symptoms from each person - dizzy, butterfly in the tummy, headaches etc...

Hmmm... sounds rough. Guess I will have to try this out for myself. I hope they will demo it in the UK soon. I didn't think this was anything great until I saw some video demos.

 

[AU Tiger]

I'm a little on the fence with this one on whether or not I should be overly excited. I am absolutely going to get the consumer rift once it comes out as I know there will be many more games initially that support it and several indie games currently being made to support it.

I eventually will pick up a PS4 and if this VR tech turns out to be really good, it means I'll also want to get sony's VR (assuming that the Occulus doesn't work for PS4) which is gonna be expensive for all these multiple headsets :/

 

[Mr.Green]

Should be awesome for things like media, though, shit, seems like you need a beast of a PC just to make the Rift spin at the moment, given the resolution etc. Still excited to see what patents and shit Sony brings to the table.

This screams for an avatar quote. ;-)

 

[Shadders]

Yeah I'd say there is a 99% chance delay was to make driveclub a vr game.

There were rumours of this in the past weren't there? It makes a lot of sense.

I think they probably would have hit launch if they could, but once they're past that point, maybe they felt they'd have the biggest impact launching alongside the VR Headset.

 

[androvsky]

The blur which strobing prevents is unrelated to the blur produced by pixel switching times on TFT displays. It happens even with the (almost) instantaneous pixel switching on OLED and is caused by how our eyes interpret the information. That's why they strobe the display.

Right, the eye's persistence from having a steady image displayed for many milliseconds, if I recall correctly. I'd forgotten about that. But since OR went from a normal LCD to strobed OLED, I'm left wondering if an unstrobed OLED is adequate, as it'd obviously be better than the original OR's screen, if not as good as the new one.

 

[iamvin22]

I hope this doesn't end up like Move or their 3d tv they made.

I am totally ignorant about these things, so can someone fill me in on how the Ps4 can achieve VR?

It is managing to get to 1080p on most games but just barely, usually requiring 30fps to do so. So how is it gonna power VR? Doesn't a VR headset require 2x1080p?

Are all VR games gonna look like Ps2/earlyPs3 games or something?

AGain, 100% ignorant here, so let me know.

Hey you're a little hard on yourself buddy its ok

 

[meanspartan]

Hey you're a little hard on yourself buddy its ok

LoL well I am, which is why I am asking these questions. Not embarrassed to admit that a lot of the time these sorts of tech things go way over my head.

 

[Leb]

Well, this will definitely be interesting. It seems to me that as a group, console consumers have shown themselves to be relatively price averse and I don't see how Sony can possibly produce a unit that's superior to CC while also being readily affordable.

But, whatever else the case may be, Sony's R&D is pretty top-notch so in terms of tech, this should be pretty exciting.

 

[TrojanBlade]

Those who are doubting this cannot be done on PS4, do you guys think Sony's R&D is some mickey mouse factory run by idiots? Do you think Dr. Richard and his team are some morons who don't know what they are doing? Come on guys if Sony is really revealing this for PS4, you bet your ass PS4 is capable of doing it and it will work. Of course some compromises would be made due to hardware limitation as its not like a PC with unlimited power, but it will work effectively otherwise why even release it if can't at least be close to OCR quality in terms of presence. The only question is at what price this gets released to attract the masses and will there be enough software to support it. I certainly hope so because VR is the next big thing in gaming and true next gen leap.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Unless this is compatible with all PS4 games im not really interested.

How can it be? Most aren't even first person.