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[Nevasleep]

I'm sure those good folk can refund all his belongings. Its just prank bro

Social experiment brah.

But really sad, were they living in Tempelhof?

 

[Wrestlemania]

Because it is part of the story. If it was seven extreme right fascists, it would probably be in the headline also. It is an important detail. But the story didn't start out as such.

By not reporting it, you are asking to stop reporting then the perpetrators happen to belong to a certain group.

In the theoretical story where it's "extreme right wing fascists", that would be a relevant detail because it likely explains the motive behind the attack. "Refugee" does not.

 

[RoadHazard]

WHY THE FUCK are there so many incidents in Sweden and Germany concerning refugees. Its really, really scary.

Because we are the countries that have taken by far the biggest responsibility in this refugee crisis. We've both taken in more people than we can really handle, because most other countries refuse to do their part. Now we (Sweden) have also drastically reduced the number we take in, because we just couldn't cope. We don't have the resources, the housing, etc.

Anyway, now we have all these people from war-torn countries who don't have a place in society, who are getting integrated very slowly if at all. People from very different cultures from ours, raised with different values. It's not gonna go smoothly all the time, there will be tensions. Most other countries won't have as much of these issues, because they have only taken in a fraction of what we have per capita.

 

[-MB-]

A country take in refugees because it sees it as a moral/legal obligation not out of the kindness of an entire population's hearts. That certainly makes it admirable but refugees shouldn't have to live in a state of constant gratitude because they received asylum somewhere. And if a refugee acts criminally you treat them as they should: as a criminal breaking the law, not as an ungrateful guest. Of course some refugees will act criminally, some people always will in a large enough population. Just because they're refugees doesn't make it worse than if a natural born citizen does it.

That is exactly how I see it too, and the law usually does too. So people who want the law to make an exception and rule harsher and differently on such crimes than it would in normal circumstances, don't have a clue how law and order works.
They just want to see the refugee get evicted laws be damned.
You see that stuff in the Netherlands too, and even to people who were born here as well, but happen to have double passports due to how the country of origin of their parents handles it.
It straight up against their own constitutional laws to want those ppl to be send back to the country of origin, even if they themselves never been born there.

 

[oti]

Had no idea those were refugees.

Anyway, send them back. They don't deserve Germany. I'm usually for trials and all but trying to kill a homeless person?

 

[D4Danger]

In the theoretical story where it's "extreme right wing fascists", that would be a relevant detail because it likely explains the motive behind the attack. "Refugee" does not.

Sure it does. Some of these people have nothing but contempt for the people who took them in. It's probably why you should do some checks beforehand.

 

[WorldStar]

In the theoretical story where it's "extreme right wing fascists", that would be a relevant detail because it likely explains the motive behind the attack. "Refugee" does not.

You're right, the fact that they are refugees is completely irrelevant in light of other recent news in Europe…

Europe-GAF, y'all got terrible times to come if these attitudes don't change real quick

 

[-MB-]

Because we are the countries that have taken by far the biggest responsibility in this refugee crisis. We've both taken in more people than we can really handle, because most other countries refuse to do their part. Now we (Sweden) have also drastically reduced the number we take in, because we just couldn't cope. We don't have the resources, the housing, etc.

Anyway, now we have all these people from war-torn countries who don't have a place in society, who are getting integrated very slowly if at all. People from very different cultures from ours, raised with different values. It's not gonna go smoothly all the time, there will be tensions. Most other countries won't have as much of these issues, because they have only taken in a fraction of what we have per capita.

IMHO such countries should be punished by the EU really, they are literally putting the strain on the few that do their moral duties, and have them risk their country turn into extremist rightwing hellholes because of it.

 

[ClosingADoor]

In the theoretical story where it's "extreme right wing fascists", that would be a relevant detail because it likely explains the motive behind the attack. "Refugee" does not.

We always report on the groups criminals belong to though, and certainly when that group is something out of the ordinary. If these were Dutch tourists, it would also get reported as such. Just look at the incident with the Bulgarian attacked some time ago in the Berlin metro.

That is all very normal and in no way setting a certain agenda. In this case it is reporting on a developing case and the whole news is now they know who did it: A few refugees.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

And nothing will really happen to them.

Nonsense, typical right-wing propaganda. There are video recordings and witnesses. They will be punished to the full extent of the law.

Then why make that detail apart of the headline? It's pretty clear what they're doing. Seven men doesn't sell the story as well as seven refugees

Yep. Can you guys imagine a headline on CNN like "Seven Mexicans set homeless man on fire" or "Seven blacks set homeless man on fire"? Because I can't.

They're not defending them because they're "young", they're defending them because they're refugees.

What? Nobody is "defending them because they're refugees". I for example criticise the way those news reports are created and spread.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Germany cannot be the world's resocialization center. We are entitled to expect the utter minimum of social functioning from people who want to become part of our society. Everybody get's a chance. But that doesn't mean that we have to trade in the safety of our own citizens to give somebody a second chance, who does not see it as obvious that setting a person on fire for shits and giggles is wrong and just plain stupid. It's not a matter of revenge, it's matter of pragmatism. There are limits to what a society can be expected to invest.

I suspect that quite a few people who take the moral high ground in the face of such stories (and liberally throw around emotional appeals) probably also asked themselves why the government was not able to deport those people with known issues who, by the lack of luck, managed to actually hurt or kill somebody. These people can't have both and should make up their mind.

I don't consider Germans "my people" and I don't consider refugees as "them". I don't consider German safety more important than Syrian safety. Arbitrary borders are meaningless to me.
Crime and poverty correlate. You want to eliminate or reduce crime, you better do something about the poverty. Germany is trying reasonably hard and history will prove Merkel right, that I am certain of.

This wast the best article all year about the matter.

Singular cases like this one are unfortunate and tragic, nevertheless. The refugees who are not criminally active will obviously suffer most from it.

 

[mf.luder]

Come from a war zone, get help in Germany, and then repay that by trying to literally murder someone. Lock them up, and no possibility for asylum anymore.

Don't lock them up, send them back. Locking them up costs money.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

In the theoretical story where it's "extreme right wing fascists", that would be a relevant detail because it likely explains the motive behind the attack. "Refugee" does not.

This isn't always true. We have threads here that say shit like "Trump supporter robs man at knifepoint" which doesn't provide a motive or any relevant information. It's just for people who want something to wank their confirmation bias.

What? Nobody is "defending them because they're refugees". I for example criticise the way those news reports are created and spread.

If you don't see this happening constantly on Gaf, you're not reading into people's posts very much. I don't necessarily hate it, I get why they do it, but I just hate when people deny it.

 

[Stitch]

Nonsense, typical right-wing propaganda. There are video recordings and witnesses. They will be punished to the full extent of the law.

Most of them are minors. So "punished to the full extent of the law" basically means they'll get a slap on the wrist. Of course not a real slap because that would be child abuse.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Don't lock them up, send them back. Locking them up costs money.

Can't sent people back to a war zone until that conflict is resolved. Lock them up for this crime, then sent them back when possible is what I would like to see when non-citizens do crimes. No reason to put up with that.

 

[WorldStar]

Can't sent people back to a war zone until that conflict is resolved.

You certainly can. I believe the word you meant to use is "won't"

 

[Imp the Dimp]

You certainly can. I believe the word you meant to use is "won't"

No you can't. Legally can't. Sending kids back to a warzone? You people are fucking mad.

 

[RoadHazard]

IMHO such countries should be punished by the EU really, they are literally putting the strain on the few that do their moral duties, and have them risk their country turn into extremist rightwing hellholes because of it.

Absolutely. If you're gonna be a part of the EU you're gonna have to do your part in situations like this. If you refuse, you should have to pay a hefty penalty to help cover the expenses of the countries that do take responsibility.

 

[ElTorro]

A country take in refugees because it sees it as a moral/legal obligation not out of the kindness of an entire population's hearts. That certainly makes it admirable but refugees shouldn't have to live in a state of constant gratitude because they received asylum somewhere. And if a refugee acts criminally you treat them as they should: as a criminal breaking the law, not as an ungrateful guest. Of course some refugees will act criminally, some people always will in a large enough population. Just because they're refugees doesn't make it worse than if a natural born citizen does it.

It does not chance the moral analysis of the actual crime, but it changes the way a society deals with the problem. A society regulates immigration for good reasons; the main one being that new members of society are supposed to be a positive contribution, or at least not an excessive burden. This is crucial since admission into a society is usually permanent and non-revokable. Which is the reason why you can't throw out citizens when they commit a crime. It's also the reason why it makes no sense to not make a difference between crimes committed by citizens and crimes committed by migrants who are under probation.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

You're right, the fact that they are refugees is completely irrelevant in light of other recent news in Europe…

Europe-GAF, y'all got terrible times to come if these attitudes don't change real quick

It is almost irrevelant, when you look at official statistics made by the German federal police BKA, which concluded in a report, that taking in all those refugees did not lead to a noticeable increase in crimes.

You certainly can. I believe the word you meant to use is "won't"

If you don't give a fuck about human rights, sure. Tells me a lot about you.

Most of them are minors. So "punished to the full extent of the law" basically means they'll get a slap on the wrist. Of course not a real slap because that would be child abuse.

Again nonsense. Police is investigating because of attempted murder, they won't get "a slap on the wrist". But keep spreading that FUD.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Nonsense, typical right-wing propaganda. There are video recordings and witnesses. They will be punished to the full extent of the law.

I'll believe it when I see it, there have been plenty of cases where all defendants claimed innocence and there was no conclusive forensic or camera evidence who did what. So no one gets convicted of the arson because 'better 10 guilty ones free then 1 innocent in jail'.

 

[orochi91]

You certainly can. I believe the word you meant to use is "won't"

???

That would be a human Rights violation.

 

[Wrestlemania]

This isn't always true. We have threads here that say shit like "Trump supporter robs man at knifepoint" which doesn't provide a motive or any relevant information. It's just for people who want something to wank their confirmation bias.

So you agree that the use of refugee in this title is also "for people who want something to wank their confirmation bias"?

 

[D4Danger]

If you don't give a fuck about human rights, sure. Tells me a lot about you.

Do you think they considered the homeless man's human rights as they were trying to bring him to death.

 

[Mendrox]

Glad none of you guys are judges here in Berlin. Some shameful posts in this thread that you would expect in the comment section of The Sun's Facebook page. These kids did a terrible, terrible thing but I'd certainly prefer to see them brought to reason and resocialized as opposed to punished with an iron fist. People this young are not lost yet.

Someone being 21 is not a kid. I would wager to say that even a 15 year old boy knows better than trying to set someone on fire. I would rather see them in prison than trying to resocialize them. Fuck this. Other people try their best here and help and they fuck it up with something like that because people will think that refugees are bad.

 

[maquiladora]

Because it is part of the story. If it was seven extreme right fascists, it would probably be in the headline also. It is an important detail. But the story didn't start out as such.

By not reporting it, you are asking to stop reporting then the perpetrators happen to belong to a certain group.

If a POC man is arrested for something, how do you think a headline like this would go down:
"Black man arrested for violent crime".
His race has nothing to do with the crime and including it as part of the "story" would only be for incendiary purposes.

The fact they are refugees has nothing to do with what they did. A group of local scumbags could have done the exact same thing. By including "refugees" as part of the headline then this becomes the focus rather than the crime itself.

 

[Benq]

Can't sent people back to a war zone until that conflict is resolved. Lock them up for this crime, then sent them back when possible is what I would like to see when non-citizens do crimes. No reason to put up with that.

They can be parachuted in. No need to land the plane in a war zone and put the aircrew at risk.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Do you think they considered the homeless man's human rights as they were trying to bring him to death.

That's not how this works. Smfh.

They can be parachuted in. No need to land the plane in a war zone and put the aircrew at risk.

Edgy.

 

[Drazgul]

Absolutely. If you're gonna be a part of the EU you're gonna have to do your part in situations like this. If you refuse, you should have to pay a hefty penalty to help cover the expenses of the countries that do take responsibility.

The migrants would just move back to Germany, Sweden etc. if you placed them in eastern Europe - no welfare there so why would they stay.

 

[Wrestlemania]

We always report on the groups criminals belong to though, and certainly when that group is something out of the ordinary. If these were Dutch tourists, it would also get reported as such. Just look at the incident with the Bulgarian attacked some time ago in the Berlin metro.

That is all very normal and in no way setting a certain agenda. In this case it is reporting on a developing case and the whole news is now they know who did it: A few refugees.

"Always"? Tell you what - you do a quick search for "homeless man attacked" and let me know how many headlines you find that report the minority group the attackers belong to. If you find some, I'd be interesting to see which sites they come from. I can probably guess.

 

[Izuna]

What the fuck is wrong with these refugees? Seriously?

A tabloid would love to run with this heading.

 

[ElTorro]

I don't consider Germans "my people" and I don't consider refugees as "them". I don't consider German safety more important than Syrian safety. Arbitrary borders are meaningless to me.
Crime and poverty correlate. You want to eliminate or reduce crime, you better do something about the poverty. Germany is trying reasonably hard and history will prove Merkel right, that I am certain of.

Yeah, I doubt that... Talk is cheap. I don't think you'd be willing to spend as much taxes for every citizen on the world as you (maybe) are spending for your fellow citizens. (You can prove me wrong by presenting how much you donated to international charity.) I also doubt that you'd be willing to invite everyone to your society without even a rudimentary vetting process. And I am certain that Angela Merkel agrees with this. Merkel had to make impossible decisions. And for the most part she did the right thing. That does not mean that she wants to get rid of the kind of controlled immigration procedure that every other country on earth has, lol...

 

[Pusherman]

Do you think they considered the homeless man's human rights as they were trying to bring him to death.

So what you're saying is we should disregard the human rights of criminals because criminals disregarded the human rights of their victims.

 

[Condom]

They can be parachuted in. No need to land the plane in a war zone and put the aircrew at risk.

But that costs money, better let to them drown in a local river /s

Anyway just lock them up indefinitely until they can return

 

[Gemüsepizza]

The migrants would just move back to Germany, Sweden etc. if you placed them in eastern Europe - no welfare there so why would they stay.

You forgot the part where they get abused and treated like shit in certain regions in Eastern Europe.

 

[KHlover]

Should bring them back to the Syrian border with 10€ and a backpack each. From there they can decide if they want to try to get back to an EU country or try to be more productive with the people they try to kill in Syria. Whether it's the IS, the rebels or Assad - I'm sure they are all in need of more (attempted) murderers.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

So you agree that the use of refugee in this title is also "for people who want something to wank their confirmation bias"?

Primarily, yeah. Though this story made headlines before the men were identified as refugees, so it's not quite as bad in that exact aspect.

 

[Ishan]

The migrants would just move back to Germany, Sweden etc. if you placed them in eastern Europe - no welfare there so why would they stay.

Huh how does the German social welfare system work ? By this logic won't all unemployed in any eu country just haul base to Germany ?

 

[Drazgul]

^ Better than the systems in eastern Europe.

You forgot the part where they get abused and treated like shit in certain regions in Eastern Europe.

That too of course - what I mean though is that since there exists such a disparity between east and west Europe, thinking that these people would be placed even close to evenly is idealistic, at best. You couldn't force them to stay there.

 

[WorldStar]

You forgot the part where they get abused and treated like shit in certain regions in Eastern Europe.

Lemme grab some tissues at the thought that these rufugees might be "treated like shit" in some possible scenario

 

[Subpar Scrub]

If a POC man is arrested for something, how do you think a headline like this would go down:
"Black man arrested for violent crime".
His race has nothing to do with the crime and including it as part of the "story" would only be for incendiary purposes.

You see it here pretty darn frequently.

"Black woman shot dead by police" and when you click on the thread, turns out they were pointing a rifle at the cops. You know how it is. People want to push their agendas, even if it risks making them look bad when others actually look into what they post and disagree.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Crime and poverty correlate.

Poverty is correlated to property crime. Violent crime is correlated with lack of social cohesion and socialisation which, yes, can be correlated with poverty. It's totally possible that giving these people more material wealth would just create more violence overall due to their perceived special status and getting rewards without having to learn how to live peacefully in the society.

 

[RoadHazard]

The migrants would just move back to Germany, Sweden etc. if you placed them in eastern Europe - no welfare there so why would they stay.

There obviously need to be control mechanisms in place for this. If you've been accepted into country X, you don't have the right to choose country Y instead just because it has better social benefits. The moment you're accepted into a safe country (which is basically all of Europe) you're no longer a refugee. You fled your home country to save your life, you've now accomplished that. If you now try to get to Sweden instead anyway, you've become an economic migrant. Not in any life-threatening danger, just not in the most generous society there is. Those people generally get sent back where they came from, or at least that's the intent.

 

[Hypnotoad]

You forgot the part where they get abused and treated like shit in certain regions in Eastern Europe.

Got any proof of that? I mean, in some region of some countries, sure, but Eastern Europe is not a monolithic entity.

What is true is that each and every single refugee who has been granted asylum in Latvia under Merkels grand scheme has left the country.

http://www.lsm.lv/en/article/societ...irst-granted-asylum-have-left-latvia.a206485/

A special report by LTV has revealed that asylum seekers in Latvia view the country as a temporary stopping-off point on the road to Germany.

All 23 individuals granted full asylum so far have promptly packed their bags and left.

According to the documentary film by LTV, Refugees Have Faces (available for viewing above in Latvian - warning, there's a 15-second advertisement), an Eritrean man, who was working at the asylum seeker center in Mucenieki, central Latvia, tendered his resignation in September and decided to move to Germany together with his wife to join his aunt, who lives there.

It means that all 23 foreigners, who had been granted asylum in Latvia up to that point, have now left Latvia.

Similar stories can be found for other countries too. For a sizable portion of refugees, it's Germoney or bust.

 

[Shiggy]

Nonsense, typical right-wing propaganda. There are video recordings and witnesses. They will be punished to the full extent of the law.

6 months on bail, and 100 hours of work in a homeless shelter? I think you should do some research on issues related to the lenience of German courts. Here are two examples (and I would not be surprised if you particularly agree with the first one as it is about rightwing extremism):
http://www.rbb-online.de/kontraste/...xtremisten/freispruch_fuer_rechtsextreme.html
http://www.focus.de/politik/videos/...chter-als-zu-taeterfreundlich_id_6242321.html

There obviously need to be control mechanisms in place for this. If you've been accepted into country X, you don't have the right to choose country Y instead just because it has better social benefits. The moment you're accepted into a safe country (which is basically all of Europe) you're no longer a refugee. If you try to get to Sweden instead, you're now an economic migrant. Those generally get sent back where they came from, or at least that's the intent.

The refugees resettled to Latvia all later left to Germany or wealthier countries due to better benefits. To do so, they destroyed their identity documents.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-europe-migrants-baltics-idUSKBN13N0RY

 

[Saint of Killers]

Send these fucks back and give their place in the country to 7 other refugees.

 

[KonradLaw]

Absolutely. If you're gonna be a part of the EU you're gonna have to do your part in situations like this. If you refuse, you should have to pay a hefty penalty to help cover the expenses of the countries that do take responsibility.

What you're doing is having your house on fire and running to your neighbours with a canister of gasoline, demanding to have their house be set on fire just for solidarity.
Thankfully so many EU countries are now against taking in refugees that the few who think differently won't have the clout to force the rest of EU.

 

[D4Danger]

So what you're saying is we should disregard the human rights of criminals because criminals disregarded the human rights of their victims.

No I was just being facetious. I would revoke their applications though and deport them at the first opportunity but even something as simple as that is too much to ask because you can't keep tabs on all those people. I think people's frustrations with the seeming lack of inaction on the bad apples is going to continue to harm the very worthwhile humanitarian efforts and only empower the far right. It's something that needs real action and not just whinging that the headline is unfair because that won't solve the issue perceived or otherwise.

 

[Nere]

EDIT: sorry seems message got posted twice due to bad internet.

 

[ElTorro]

So what you're saying is we should disregard the human rights of criminals because criminals disregarded the human rights of their victims.

Just to be clear, according to current German law migrants can be deported if they constitute a "danger to society"; for instance, when they have been convicted for a crime and sentenced to at least three years of prison. The right of residence is not unconditional, and deportation in that case is not a violation of human rights.