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In new Captain America #1, what Steve Rogers says will change everything (SPOILERS).

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You're confused. There are far more comics being printed now at far more price points.

Newsstand comics in the 60s and 70s "sold" a lot of copies with massive amounts of those issues simply being wasted and destroyed. Sales numbers for that era are hilariously inflated because of this. This doesn't happen anymore.

Revenue is the only way this conversation even makes sense. Trades collect a vast number of issues for less than cover price. Is a single trade sold counting as one issue? Ten? Thirty?

Digital on platforms like comixology will run sales as well.

Marvel unlimited gives you access to the entire back catalogue for ten dollars a month.

Comics are reaching broader audiences at much wider price points than the 90s, which was the previous industry high. Your arguments are flawed and not based in any realistic measure of the actual health of the industry.

Not really true. The statements of ownership had total number printed, total number sold through, and the number of copies returned. They are still much higher going by the number of copies that were actually sold through.

Furthermore, modern comics are inflated too. The sales estimates you get are the amount sold to the comic store. Comic stores can't return them anymore. Comic stores being stuck with un-returnable comic books is a fairly well known problem. Look in the dollar bin at your local comic store and you will see plenty of unsold tie ins from the last 5 years worth of events.
 

stupei

Member
That's not the point, though - I mean, yes, "Evil Cap is fun to read" is part of the point. But the underlying message, what we're supposed to take away from this, is twofold:

- That the difference between a great person and a greatly evil person isn't as large as we'd like to believe.
- That having blind faith in someone, or something, that seems outwardly good, is a recipe for disaster.

You could tell that same story with a brand new "Colonel USA" type knockoff, but that wouldn't be nearly as resonant.

No, I get it.

I just think both those points are rather sophomoric ideas about human morality using cliched edginess and shock value to disguise themselves as exceptionally mature or interesting.

No, fascism is not a simple choice for an innately good person to make under the right circumstances unless they are inclined to fear the consequences of dissent, but Cap is not historically afraid of challenging authority. This idea that fascism isn't immediately and obviously morally reprehensible -- some kind of very narrow, almost invisible line between Good and Bad -- honestly seems rooted in the fact that a majority of people are at times more comforted by aspects of authoritarianism than we would like to admit and require frequent justification for why obedience to authority might not only be a Choice, but in fact a morally considered and viably righteous one.

But honestly, it's super heroes. If I'm not supposed to think of them as essentially righteous and striving to do genuine good then why am I even bothering reading about capes?

Even though it's been an entertaining arc and the people who complained about it when it started are the same people who didn't read it then

I personally don't make it a trend to spend money on something for several months that I think may possibly end up offending me. I don't think that's a particularly shocking or even controversial stance to take. If something might be sketchy, I wait and see before I invest in it. (Valuable advice for the stock market too.) edit: Wait, are you repeating the idea that people who are offended by an arc weren't even reading that comic to begin with? Because I certainly was. Huge fan of Spencer's work before all this nonsense.

how is this antisemitic?

Where did I say that it was in what you just quoted?
 

MisterHero

Super Member
Even though it's been an entertaining arc and the people who complained about it when it started are the same people who didn't read it then
It's on the artists/publisher to make the storyline marketable.

An evil Spider-Man, evil Cap, etc. story can be fun, but maybe committing 2+ years to that idea just feels like a giant waste of time.
 

Parallax

best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
Where did I say that it was in what you just quoted?

So I guess if people who don't like this decision read comics, the next approach is to say we're speaking out of turn if we say this decision is antisemitic but aren't Jewish ourselves?

between this and constantly bringing up your jewish friends dissapointment, that seems to be your directive
 

jph139

Member
No, I get it.

I just think both those points are rather sophomoric ideas about human morality using cliched edginess and shock value to disguise themselves as exceptionally mature or interesting.

No, fascism is not a simple choice for an innately good person to make under the right circumstances unless they are inclined to fear the consequences of dissent, but Cap is not historically afraid of challenging authority. This idea that fascism isn't immediately and obviously morally reprehensible -- some kind of very narrow, almost invisible line between Good and Bad -- honestly seems rooted in the fact that a majority of people are at times more comforted by aspects of authoritarianism than we would like to admit and require frequent justification for why obedience to authority might not only be a Choice, but in fact a morally considered and viably righteous one.

But honestly, it's super heroes. If I'm not supposed to think of them as essentially righteous and striving to do genuine good then why am I even bothering reading about capes?

See, I disagree strongly there. The only reason you or I reject fascism is because of environmental conditioning - if we were raised by Nazis we would believe strongly in it. I don't believe in any sort of objective, innate morality to people, and think that being "good" is a constant struggle with our inclination toward violence and hate.

If you're disagreeing with his interpretation of human nature and morality - as something malleable and unfixed - then, yeah, I can see why the story wouldn't resonate.

If Cap could never be a Nazi, then a story where he's a Nazi has no insight to the human condition. But I think, in the right circumstance, anyone could be a Nazi.

And I mean, if you'd prefer superheroes played straight, that's fine. But I don't see the harm in the occasional subversion or deconstruction. It's produced a lot of classics. I mean, Secret Empire's not going to end up as the next Watchmen, but...
 

Mafro

Member
l2gNMnr.jpg
Knowing Hickman cynical self-awareness, and if he knew what the planned upcoming events post-Secret Wars were, it honestly wouldn't surprise me if he knew exactly what he was doing with that.

There's a reason the two Marvel books I read are series that have been completely unaffected by crossovers.
 
OK, so, I think there's a story to be told here that could be very good and meaningful and that really could reflect the concepts the defenders of the story are saying it does.

But the problem is that, at the current point, it doesn't actually show any of that. It doesn't show that even the greatest men could be, as we see it, turned evil with just a slight change of circumstances because it's a story using a bloody Cosmic Cube, something that outright reshapes reality. There is no punch behind the message when creating the situation is done through literally rewriting existence. To hit that kind of meaning properly you really need to have everything set in motion through a more subtle and less cheaty plot device that doesn't directly give you desired result.

Obviously, I'm dismissing the entire concept of "In the very original and 'true' reality Steve Rogers was naturally pro-Hydra and only was the upstanding man we've known because Cosmic Cube usage!" out of hand because I have to believe that not even current Marvel would let this event end without disproving something as utterly awful and absurd as that. That's actually another issue I have with it. I expect silly twists to happen but you need to at least have some uncertainty over how they'll finally resolve it whereas here it's basically impossible for any part of that to be even remotely true.
 

Trey

Member
"The only difference between a hero and a villain is circumstance and perspective" is such a superficial point that using a character like Cap as a vehicle for said point feels like a disservice.
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
If Cap could never be a Nazi, then a story where he's a Nazi has no insight to the human condition. But I think, in the right circumstance, anyone could be a Nazi.

See, I'd have less of a problem with that statement (disregarding the fact that the 'original' setup was him being kidnapped as a kid by HYDRA and brainwashed, which isn't really a free will choice)....were it not for the following quote, which sums this up as to my line of thinking.

But the problem is that, at the current point, it doesn't actually show any of that. It doesn't show that even the greatest men could be, as we see it, turned evil with just a slight change of circumstances because it's a story using a bloody Cosmic Cube, something that outright reshapes reality. There is no punch behind the message when creating the situation is done through literally rewriting existence. To hit that kind of meaning properly you really need to have everything set in motion through a more subtle and less cheaty plot device that doesn't directly give you desired result.

This is such a hamfisted 'pull back the curtain' style reveal that it took away a lot of any significant setup, instead bluntly hammering it into our heads as a 'shock' in order to sell more comics.
 

MisterHero

Super Member
"The only difference between a hero and a villain is circumstance and perspective" is such a superficial point that using a character like Cap as a vehicle for said point feels like a disservice.
Even then you have to ignore how much the Serum affected his perspective. Skinny sickly teenage Steve would probably not become a world-leading tactician.

It's all moot because he's a victim of reality warping, nothing you read actually matters. Nature vs. Nurture debate is lol
 

IrishNinja

Member
This is Ben Riley all over again.

This is dumber than the Clone Saga.

Ben was the goods, it wasn't his fault they pulled the bait & switch at the end

Why even go this way when you could easily use Secret Wars as the reason?

who's to say they're not still doing that?

Lmao, thank God DC got its shit together.

i mean
have you read the watchmen hints for how they're trying to fix their universe or nah

Reed, Sue, Valeria and Franklin return to save the day at the end of Secret Empire by helping our heroes fight evil cap and hydra. Franklin engages in a reality warping battle with Kobik the sentient cosmic cube to restore universe 8 to what they actually meant it to be at the end of Secret Wars.

Also, Marvel relaunches again with every book getting new #1s, and all your favorite books get cancelled.

...eh, i'll take ti

Marvel Comics stopped after Hickman's Secret Wars.

we really really do need hickman back sometime, yeah

I will let it play out

Between cosmic cubes being in play and the universe beeing remade, who knows what is right or wrong

that's the only sensible option, yeah
like we can go look at newsarama/etc when it was revealed bru was bringing back bucky and see more of the same

I wish the internet was around for stuff like Crisis, Kraven's last hunt, and the OG Secret Wars

god that'd be amazing, i should just check usenet stuff for how Age of Apocalypse was received

Everything should be back to normal by August.

But if we're talking about dumb stuff in comics, here are a couple guns designed for a guy with ten fingers from Daredevil.

...
god, i need this purple man story to tie up & show how matt got the cat in the bag before saying if that's the lowest point of soule's run

Yeah my bad. Marvel vs DC was the fan voted one and I ALWAYS fuck that up

as long as you didn't vote for bats over cap you didn't fuck up nothin
 
I really want to know - how many people complaining about this story and worrying about retcons have actually read it?

BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING GREAT.

This version of Rogers is way more complex and interesting than the old one. Having him up against not just the worst villains but all the heroes as well stretches what the character can do to his limits. His portrayal as a master strategist with a higher cause has never been better than it has been here.

And the way it's been set up, he's sympathetic. You get what he believes in. The world around him is corrupt. Why did Trump get voted in? Why did Bernie Sanders get so much support? Because people wanted a rogue to go in and upset the apple cart of what they saw as a corrupt system. Trump is incapable and bigoted, but this is a story about a guy that's not. It perfectly taps into the zeitgeist.

I love that Secret Empire doubles down on the origin, because it shouldn't just be undone. They should use it the way writers did Daredevil's secret identity being outed was, take it as a challenge to write more interesting stories, rather than a temporary obstacle that gets wiped away at the end of the story. They'll end up with a way better character.
 

Khaz

Member

Am I the only one who read it as "the reality Kobik manufactured had Nazis win the war and allies mess with a cosmic cube to change that outcome etc."?

Once Kobik undo her changes at the end of the arc, everything will be back to how it originally was, with the Axis losing the war, the big secret weapon being atomic not celestial, Steve Rogers being a forever patriot...

As soon as I read Secret Empire 0 I realised it was the only outcome possible, with how the events switch so drastically and the many deaths. I'll read it as an interesting "what if", but I know nothing will come out of this. This event could have had interesting repercussions had they been more subtle about it.

[edit]
I got it. Skull used the Cosmic Cube to remake to the world into a world where the allies used a Cosmic Cube to remake the world.

Pretty much.
 

stupei

Member
between this and constantly bringing up your jewish friends dissapointment, that seems to be your directive

Fair enough.

Is it constantly bringing something up to directly respond to your repeated questions directed at me? Are you asking me things with the intention that I not respond?

Because I can do that.

See, I disagree strongly there. The only reason you or I reject fascism is because of environmental conditioning - if we were raised by Nazis we would believe strongly in it. I don't believe in any sort of objective, innate morality to people, and think that being "good" is a constant struggle with our inclination toward violence and hate.

If you're disagreeing with his interpretation of human nature and morality - as something malleable and unfixed - then, yeah, I can see why the story wouldn't resonate.

If Cap could never be a Nazi, then a story where he's a Nazi has no insight to the human condition. But I think, in the right circumstance, anyone could be a Nazi.

And I mean, if you'd prefer superheroes played straight, that's fine. But I don't see the harm in the occasional subversion or deconstruction. It's produced a lot of classics. I mean, Secret Empire's not going to end up as the next Watchmen, but...

I don't mean to argue on behalf of moral absolutism, certainly, but the idea that people are very easily brought on board with violent fascism simply isn't true. Even Nazis did not originally believe in much of the violent acts of Nazism. Gas chambers were created to distance the soldiers from the consequences of their actions. Before that the soldiers carrying out executions were becoming physically ill from guilt and sleepless nights (as documented in the writings of Nazi Generals); they certainly knew what they were doing was morally wrong.

There's a reason propaganda is required to convince the masses of the inhumanity of their Enemy. Most people do not actually want to hurt other people and understand that doing so is morally wrong. It's why they must be convinced that the other people are not actually so much people as Other. It's a very long, careful, calculated walk toward accepting those choices and I think it's dangerous and sloppy to erase so much of that path in favor of "anyone can be corrupted" narratives that shift the lines so close together. It creates a sense of inevitability in many ways that, as I said, removes the idea of moral culpability for one's actions. (And in this example, Steve is still raised in Brooklyn, correct? He's still the often anti-authoritarian figure he has been historically who does not easily cower from the very human fear of dissent? Because those would be the usual factors that would make someone align with fascism in a real world context, if this is meant to resonate as frighteningly possible.)

Sure, making it Steve Rogers packs more of a punch, but that's just a writer using the work of others to accomplish much of the emotional weight. If the point being made is that horrible violence can arise anywhere, we already know that. If the idea is to show fascists as sympathetic, innately human figures worthy of sympathy, who does that serve exactly?

I think creating an original work intended as an examination of human morality and its complexities is worthwhile. Absolutely. It's also very different from assigning a completely new history to an antifascist figure that is entirely antithetical to everything that he has ever stood for.
 

LionPride

Banned
I personally don't make it a trend to spend money on something for several months that I think may possibly end up offending me. I don't think that's a particularly shocking or even controversial stance to take. If something might be sketchy, I wait and see before I invest in it. (Valuable advice for the stock market too.) edit: Wait, are you repeating the idea that people who are offended by an arc weren't even reading that comic to begin with? Because I certainly was. Huge fan of Spencer's work before all this nonsense.



Where did I say that it was in what you just quoted?
I'm talking about the people who admit they don't keep up with stories and still say "Oh this is dumb, Marvel is creatively bankrupt" without even knowing what the fuck is going on. If people wanna be offended by the arc, I think it's weird, but sure go ahead.
 
I really want to know - how many people complaining about this story and worrying about retcons have actually read it?

BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING GREAT.

This version of Rogers is way more complex and interesting than the old one. Having him up against not just the worst villains but all the heroes as well stretches what the character can do to his limits. His portrayal as a master strategist with a higher cause has never been better than it has been here.

And the way it's been set up, he's sympathetic. You get what he believes in. The world around him is corrupt. Why did Trump get voted in? Why did Bernie Sanders get so much support? Because people wanted a rogue to go in and upset the apple cart of what they saw as a corrupt system. Trump is incapable and bigoted, but this is a story about a guy that's not. It perfectly taps into the zeitgeist.

I love that Secret Empire doubles down on the origin, because it shouldn't just be undone. They should use it the way writers did Daredevil's secret identity being outed was, take it as a challenge to write more interesting stories, rather than a temporary obstacle that gets wiped away at the end of the story. They'll end up with a way better character.
the ending is the only thing I'm afraid of, Cap has to be redeemed somehow and I don't know you do it without coping out of what's been set up. It would take the deftest of hands to deal with a Cap who's done what he's done.
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
This version of Rogers is way more complex and interesting than the old one. Having him up against not just the worst villains but all the heroes as well stretches what the character can do to his limits. His portrayal as a master strategist with a higher cause has never been better than it has been here.

And the way it's been set up, he's sympathetic. You get what he believes in. The world around him is corrupt. Why did Trump get voted in? Why did Bernie Sanders get so much support? Because people wanted a rogue to go in and upset the apple cart of what they saw as a corrupt system. Trump is incapable and bigoted, but this is a story about a guy that's not. It perfectly taps into the zeitgeist.

From what I've gathered (admittedly only loosely following out of curiosity, so correct me if I'm wrong), he wants to provide 'benevolent ruling over everyone' somewhat similar to the HYDRA plan in the Winter Soldier.

Again, feel free to correct me if that's not it, but 'Benevolent Dictator', even without the killer robots tracking and killing anyone who disagrees, doesn't sound especially sympathetic.

(Also, stuff like mentioning that he kicked Jack Flag out the window because he knew the latter would live, insofar as trying to keep hold of some of Steve's morals for an example....but then trying to kill him via poisoning later doesn't really strike me as sympathetic)

I love that Secret Empire doubles down on the origin, because it shouldn't just be undone. They should use it the way writers did Daredevil's secret identity being outed was, take it as a challenge to write more interesting stories, rather than a temporary obstacle that gets wiped away at the end of the story. They'll end up with a way better character.

Personally, I don't see this sticking around any more than 'Superior is the new Spidey, Peter's gone, get over it'

But yes, what they eventually decide to do in the end could potentially have either some sticking power, or absolutely flop, depending on the nature of the finale and whether or not a rewrite happens, cube-inspired or otherwise
 

Khaz

Member
the ending is the only thing I'm afraid of, Cap has to be redeemed somehow and I don't know you do it without coping out of what's been set up. It would take the deftest of hands to deal with a Cap who's done what he's done.

You don't need redemption when you can rewrite history and reality.
 

mreddie

Member
The only ending that makes sense is Steve goes back to blue blood Steve but remembered everything about Hydra Cap and decides to refocus his life.

Then again, that was Old Man Cap.
 

NeonZ

Member
From what I've gathered (admittedly only loosely following out of curiosity, so correct me if I'm wrong), he wants to provide 'benevolent ruling over everyone' somewhat similar to the HYDRA plan in the Winter Soldier.

Again, feel free to correct me if that's not it, but 'Benevolent Dictator', even without the killer robots tracking and killing anyone who disagrees, doesn't sound especially sympathetic.

They actually showed a flashforward with his regime persecuting mutants and inhumans alongside turning people against each other to rely on the government. So, he's really not sympathetic at all. The only thing separating his fascism from nazism is that he'll go after fictional minorities.
 
No, I get it.

I just think both those points are rather sophomoric ideas about human morality using cliched edginess and shock value to disguise themselves as exceptionally mature or interesting.

No, fascism is not a simple choice for an innately good person to make under the right circumstances unless they are inclined to fear the consequences of dissent, but Cap is not historically afraid of challenging authority. This idea that fascism isn't immediately and obviously morally reprehensible -- some kind of very narrow, almost invisible line between Good and Bad -- honestly seems rooted in the fact that a majority of people are at times more comforted by aspects of authoritarianism than we would like to admit and require frequent justification for why obedience to authority might not only be a Choice, but in fact a morally considered and viably righteous one.

Think about why you have a problem with fascism, and why democracy really exists.

On a surface level, fascism makes a ton of sense. Centralized decision making. Unified vision. Continuity of leadership. Clearly delineated hierarchy and division of labour. Government positions can be made by appointment according to expertise, not who runs the most effective appeal-to-emotion ad campaign to an electorate with almost zero understanding of the legal, financial and infrastructure tasks facing day to day government. On a strictly rational basis, this makes all the sense in the world, and in one form or another has been the basis for several materially successful governments.

Why did democracy take hold in the West instead? Because even though it contains a large number of inefficiencies and wastes of time and resources resetting leadership and direction, it allows for a societal homeostasis. It provides a pressure valve for disagreements between social factions. It can quickly adopt new government philosophies in response to changes to the external environment. And it provides a corrective to the problem of corrupt leadership without need to resort to revolution.

In short, democracy exists largely to account for real human flaws - notions of individual agency are often just the sales pitch.

But what happens when a perfect, incorruptible person is in charge of an autocracy? When you truly have John Stuart Mill's benevolent dictatorship? Doesn't that suddenly change the equation? He's overthrowing a global regime that people take for granted is corrupt, violent and fundamentally governed by self-interest - it's essentially the basis of modern political discourse. In this sense, I'm not so sure that Cap is a villain at all. Spencer is writing him as an Alexander, a hero in a very classical sense.

I think there's real narrative merit in exploring what that means in a 21st century technocratic context. Whether this story is that or just a bunch of "how will Tony stop him and what contrivance will they use to put Spider-Man at the centre of it" punch ups I don't know. But I don't write this concept off at all, I think it's really interesting.
 

Mesoian

Member
I really want to know - how many people complaining about this story and worrying about retcons have actually read it?

BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING GREAT.

This version of Rogers is way more complex and interesting than the old one. Having him up against not just the worst villains but all the heroes as well stretches what the character can do to his limits. His portrayal as a master strategist with a higher cause has never been better than it has been here.

And the way it's been set up, he's sympathetic. You get what he believes in. The world around him is corrupt. Why did Trump get voted in? Why did Bernie Sanders get so much support? Because people wanted a rogue to go in and upset the apple cart of what they saw as a corrupt system. Trump is incapable and bigoted, but this is a story about a guy that's not. It perfectly taps into the zeitgeist.

I love that Secret Empire doubles down on the origin, because it shouldn't just be undone. They should use it the way writers did Daredevil's secret identity being outed was, take it as a challenge to write more interesting stories, rather than a temporary obstacle that gets wiped away at the end of the story. They'll end up with a way better character.
To be perfectly honest, I don't trust that Marvel has the talent to do that. I don't know why you would trust them to do as much either.
 
I'll say it's funny reading this and Injustice side by side...

Presumed righteousness among superheroes be damned.
DC has a million different universes of iconic characters doing weird shit. As long as it's not the main universe then take liberties with iconic characters with a rich background.
To be perfectly honest, I don't trust that Marvel has the talent to do that. I don't know why you would trust them to do as much either.
None of it really matters since the Cap books are selling bad. No one is gonna miss this version of Cap if it gets retconned.
 
See, I'd have less of a problem with that statement (disregarding the fact that the 'original' setup was him being kidnapped as a kid by HYDRA and brainwashed, which isn't really a free will choice)....were it not for the following quote, which sums this up as to my line of thinking.



This is such a hamfisted 'pull back the curtain' style reveal that it took away a lot of any significant setup, instead bluntly hammering it into our heads as a 'shock' in order to sell more comics.

I think you mixed up your quote tags a bit here. I'm only the second quote and not the first.

I really want to know - how many people complaining about this story and worrying about retcons have actually read it?

BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING GREAT.

This version of Rogers is way more complex and interesting than the old one. Having him up against not just the worst villains but all the heroes as well stretches what the character can do to his limits. His portrayal as a master strategist with a higher cause has never been better than it has been here.

And the way it's been set up, he's sympathetic. You get what he believes in. The world around him is corrupt. Why did Trump get voted in? Why did Bernie Sanders get so much support? Because people wanted a rogue to go in and upset the apple cart of what they saw as a corrupt system. Trump is incapable and bigoted, but this is a story about a guy that's not. It perfectly taps into the zeitgeist.

I love that Secret Empire doubles down on the origin, because it shouldn't just be undone. They should use it the way writers did Daredevil's secret identity being outed was, take it as a challenge to write more interesting stories, rather than a temporary obstacle that gets wiped away at the end of the story. They'll end up with a way better character.

See, I pretty much entirely disagree with your basic premise of this being needed to make Steve a better and more interesting character. Steve Rogers is one of my favourite Marvel characters entirely because he's such a complicated and interesting character that appeals to the best of us when he's well written. To be entirely honestly, I feel you're completely missing the idea of his character. He's the moral center of Marvel world, yes, but that doesn't mean he's some silly one note character that lacks challenges. He's the moral man he is despite a wildly imperfect world and despite all the draws to turn him away from that. His first loyalty is to what is right more than any country or person. Maybe you think this makes him a boring character but, to me, a character that can truly walk that path is extremely interesting.

And none of this addresses how abhorrent the idea that the Allies would have changed the result of WW2 with through Cosmic Cube usage while leaving then tens of millions of dead and the massive destruction. That doesn't make things interesting, that just indicates bad storytelling.
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
But what happens when a perfect, incorruptible person is in charge of an autocracy? When you truly have John Stuart Mill's benevolent dictatorship? Doesn't that suddenly change the equation? He's overthrowing a global regime that people take for granted is corrupt, violent and fundamentally governed by self-interest - it's essentially the basis of modern political discourse. In this sense, I'm not so sure that Cap is a villain at all. Spencer is writing him as an Alexander, a hero in a very classical sense.

Hm.....

They actually showed a flashforward with his regime persecuting mutants and inhumans alongside turning people against each other to rely on the government. So, he's really not sympathetic at all. The only thing separating his fascism from nazism is that he'll go after fictional minorities.

Yep, seems legit.

I think you mixed up your quote tags a bit here. I'm only the second quote and not the first.

Yeah, my bad, will fix.
 

jph139

Member
I don't mean to argue on behalf of moral absolutism, certainly, but the idea that people are very easily brought on board with violent fascism simply isn't true. Even Nazis did not originally believe in much of the violent acts of Nazism. Gas chambers were created to distance the soldiers from the consequences of their actions. Before that the soldiers carrying out executions were becoming physically ill from guilt and sleepless nights (as documented in the writings of Nazi Generals); they certainly knew what they were doing was morally wrong.

There's a reason propaganda is required to convince the masses of the inhumanity of their Enemy. Most people do not actually want to hurt other people and understand that doing so is morally wrong. It's why they must be convinced that the other people are not actually so much people as Other. It's a very long, careful, calculated walk toward accepting those choices and I think it's dangerous and sloppy to erase so much of that path in favor of "anyone can be corrupted" narratives that shift the lines so close together. It creates a sense of inevitability in many ways that, as I said, removes the idea of moral culpability for one's actions. (And in this example, Steve is still raised in Brooklyn, correct? He's still the often anti-authoritarian figure he has been historically who does not easily cower from the very human fear of dissent? Because those would be the usual factors that would make someone align with fascism in a real world context, if this is meant to resonate as frighteningly possible.)

Sure, making it Steve Rogers packs more of a punch, but that's just a writer using the work of others to accomplish much of the emotional weight. If the point being made is that horrible violence can arise anywhere, we already know that. If the idea is to show fascists as sympathetic, innately human figures worthy of sympathy, who does that serve exactly?

I think creating an original work intended as an examination of human morality and its complexities is worthwhile. Absolutely. It's also very different from assigning a completely new history to an antifascist figure that is entirely antithetical to everything that he has ever stood for.

I don't mean to go back to this well, but I have to - you really need to read the actual comic.

I feel like a lot of people have the impression that a switch was flipped and suddenly everything changed, but that's not the case. Spencer very methodically charts Young Steve's life from his pre-HYDRA days. He shows the rhetoric that brings him on board - a conversation where his childhood suffering (poverty, sickness, an abusive father) are blamed on the American values of independence and self-sufficiency. Steve builds relationships with Elisa, Whitehall, and Zemo, people who legitimately care about his well being. He's praised and protected, and his values remain the same, just... twisted.

And that's all compared to a modern HYDRA suicide bomber in Issue #1, who lives a shit life and ends up in a shit place and is welcomed by a bunch of white supremacists. He's not always comfortable with it, but it's his family now. And how can he say no?

This isn't "Steve's a Nazi, ooh, magic, isn't that crazy, let's watch him punch dudes." Spencer is a solid writer. He's telling a story and he's doing it pretty thoroughly. It's worth reading - even if you try it for free sometime with Marvel Unlimited, I'd strongly suggest giving it a shot.

But, yeah, it shows how otherwise decent people can be seduced into a belief in fascism. HYDRA Cap is a tragic figure, because we see him struggle with his own actions, and know that there's a decent person underneath. I think it's something people need to be reminded of - that not everyone is a Red Skull, and that victimizers can be victims as well.

I suspect you'd disagree, and take more of an absolutist approach to fascism. It's something I waver on, honestly, so I doubt I'm going to persuade you that Spencer's angle is the right one.

In the end, honestly, I just don't see Captain America as a sacred cow. He's a guy in funny boots from a kid's magazine. Telling the story with him is easier and more marketable than an original version would be. Make him a werewolf or an old man or a fascist. Just try and write something good, you know?

This is such a hamfisted 'pull back the curtain' style reveal that it took away a lot of any significant setup, instead bluntly hammering it into our heads as a 'shock' in order to sell more comics.

Honestly, I don't disagree, but like I said - it's not using the Cube as a "wow, things are different, poof!" The Cube is just to nudge things along. I'm willing to dismiss it as a shortcut, but I understand that using those sorts of shortcuts can undermine the narrative.
 

Makonero

Member
I knew Nick Spencer was a hack after reading like four trades of Morning Glories. That shit was super shocking and weird and went absolutely nowhere. Just mysteries piled on nonsense piled on "twists" piled on shit.

Same as this, apparently except now with Nazis. Get fucked Spencer.
 
To be perfectly honest, I don't trust that Marvel has the talent to do that. I don't know why you would trust them to do as much either.

Marvel as a whole? Not so much. Spencer in particular? Why not? His Cap run is probably the most energetic, interesting thing either Marvel or DC have going right now.

See, I pretty much entirely disagree with your basic premise of this being needed to make Steve a better and more interesting character. Steve Rogers is one of my favourite Marvel characters entirely because he's such a complicated and interesting character that appeals to the best of us when he's well written. To be entirely honestly, I feel you're completely missing the idea of his character. He's the moral center of Marvel world, yes, but that doesn't mean he's some silly one note character that lacks challenges. He's the moral man he is despite a wildly imperfect world and despite all the draws to turn him away from that. His first loyalty is to what is right more than any country or person. Maybe you think this makes him a boring character but, to me, a character that can truly walk that path is extremely interesting.

No, I one hundred percent get what you're saying. It's the reason I object when people say Superman is boring. But I also feel like all those stories with Steve have been told. It's a big reason they keep trying to move him off centre stage - replacing him with Bucky, making him director of SHIELD, etc. They're looking for ways to have more dynamic actors there, whereas Cap's role has always had to be somewhat passive.

This characterization introduces a new dynamism to him, and I don't take it for granted that he's being presented as a straight up villain. He's a soldier, doing what must be done in war, just as he always has.

And none of this addresses how abhorrent the idea that the Allies would have changed the result of WW2 with through Cosmic Cube usage while leaving then tens of millions of dead and the massive destruction. That doesn't make things interesting, that just indicates bad storytelling.

We don't really know the details of what happened with the cube, or even to what extent Newton and Kraken were telling the truth when interpreting Nostradamus' prediction. They're almost certainly not.

But even if we want to take what's shown at face value, the allies dropped atomic bombs in Japan killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, and firebombing campaigns killed hundreds of thousands more. It's clear that human lives were instrumental in their thinking during the war. If the cube is used to create a new world order with clear moral lines drawn over sympathy from allied deaths, that makes a certain kind of conspiratorial sense.
 
I don't see how this even demonstrates the idea that "even the best can fall" when the situation is either he was always a fascist or he was brainwashed into being a fascist. In the first scenario he was never one of "the best of us", and in the second scenario you lose any actual thematic depth because the only way you can think of to get "the best of us" to fall is through nonsense comic book mumbo jumbo that doesn't actually exist
 

IrishNinja

Member
They should use it the way writers did Daredevil's secret identity being outed was, take it as a challenge to write more interesting stories, rather than a temporary obstacle that gets wiped away at the end of the story. They'll end up with a way better character.

see i liked waid's direction but by the end i was dying to see him back in costume & have another take than superhero celebrity, didn't need the genie put back in the bottle but i really did adore bendis' urban legend kinda thing where folks more or less knew but weren't gonna say shit.
now he's back in NY with the shadowland costume & a new job, no friends and it's not super exciting
 

Metroidvania

People called Romanes they go the house?
But even if we want to take what's shown at face value, the allies dropped atomic bombs in Japan killing hundreds of thousands of civilians, and firebombing campaigns killed hundreds of thousands more. It's clear that human lives were instrumental in their thinking during the war. If the cube is used to create a new world order with clear moral lines drawn over sympathy from allied deaths, that makes a certain kind of conspiratorial sense.

Your example just give another 'reason' as to why the Allies re-writing time was bullshit/doesn't make sense, unless there are severe limitations to the cube's power we don't know about, or the cabal theory.

If the Allies could go back and re-write things, unless the cube is limited, why wouldn't they go back and convince the Japanese to surrender before having to drop the bombs?

But, yeah, it shows how otherwise decent people can be seduced into a belief in fascism. HYDRA Cap is a tragic figure, because we see him struggle with his own actions, and know that there's a decent person underneath. I think it's something people need to be reminded of - that not everyone is a Red Skull, and that victimizers can be victims as well.

This doesn't compute with the flash-forward that was mentioned just on this previous page, with the Hydra gov't (unless Steve was gone/no longer in charge) persecuting minorities who could potentially fight back, and urging people to turn on each other 'for the benefit of the state' (the state being Steve and Hydra) Or with my earlier example (second-hand, admittedly) of him 'not killing' Jack Flag when kicking him out of the jet (instead of snapping his neck or w/e), but then going on to try and poison/kill him later when he was worried Jack could blow his cover.

How exactly is Steve 'tragic' in his current rendition? What 'belief system' is he struggling with, that leads to his internal conflict with his conscience, twisted as it may be?

In his current rendition, that's not even remotely applicable to his current character, as he's an entirely different person insofar as his belief system.
 

Conan-san

Member
Well this is all dumb, I'll just be over here with Archie's Sonic and-

...

Fuck my comic reading life.

I mean Jem's still pretty great but I need some boots to gloots here.
 

jph139

Member
This doesn't compute with the flash-forward that was mentioned just on this previous page, with the Hydra gov't (unless Steve was gone/no longer in charge) persecuting minorities who could potentially fight back, and urging people to turn on each other 'for the benefit of the state' (the state being Steve and Hydra)

Dunno. Like you said, could be that Steve is no longer in charge - there's a cabal of HYDRA goons running the show with him, and he could be ousted. The flashes are brief and don't have any context, so we can't say who/how/why.

Or with my earlier example (second-hand, admittedly) of him 'not killing' Jack Flag when kicking him out of the jet (instead of snapping his neck or w/e), but then going on to try and poison/kill him later when he was worried Jack could blow his cover.

Steve, at this time, is still trying to play loyal to a telepathic Red Skull, preparing for a coup. He constantly resists killing Jack, saying he's not a threat, but knowing (via internal monologue) that his entire plan could fall apart at any moment if the guy wakes up. The Skull gives him an ultimatum and he goes to finish the job... for the greater good.

How exactly is Steve 'tragic' in his current rendition? What 'belief system' is he struggling with, that leads to his internal conflict with his conscience, twisted as it may be?

In his current rendition, that's not even remotely applicable to his current character, as he's an entirely different person insofar as his belief system.

He wants people to live happily, in peace and comfort and unity. He wants to make the world a better place. He just believes that freedom is incompatible with this vision, and that the world's heroes are an obstacle that has to be surpassed.

There's the merciless, unflinching face - which is a cool, scary villain - and the occasional pangs of doubt and regret, hinting at his heroic nature - that make him tragic.
 

HeatBoost

Member
But what happens when a perfect, incorruptible person is in charge of an autocracy? When you truly have John Stuart Mill's benevolent dictatorship? Doesn't that suddenly change the equation? He's overthrowing a global regime that people take for granted is corrupt, violent and fundamentally governed by self-interest - it's essentially the basis of modern political discourse. In this sense, I'm not so sure that Cap is a villain at all. Spencer is writing him as an Alexander, a hero in a very classical sense.

I think there's real narrative merit in exploring what that means in a 21st century technocratic context. Whether this story is that or just a bunch of "how will Tony stop him and what contrivance will they use to put Spider-Man at the centre of it" punch ups I don't know. But I don't write this concept off at all, I think it's really interesting.

He's not though. He threw that guy out of an airplane. He's done tons of shady shit. He's allied with all the old scumbag Nazi pieces of shit. This is not "What if Captain America seized power in America via a coup d'etat?" it's "What if Captain America was a Nazi?" He is allied with Nazis. He literally killed Red Skull because Skull did a bad job at succeeding as Nazi.
 

Parallax

best seen in the classic "Shadow of the Beast"
Fair enough.

Is it constantly bringing something up to directly respond to your repeated questions directed at me? Are you asking me things with the intention that I not respond?

Because I can do that.

you brought up your jewish friends being upset at the twist as though that somehow makes them special, or is even relevant to the topic at hand. i was just curious as to what antisemitism had to do with anything.

but hey we can both be civil and part ways right here
 

NeonZ

Member
Dunno. Like you said, could be that Steve is no longer in charge - there's a cabal of HYDRA goons running the show with him, and he could be ousted. The flashes are brief and don't have any context, so we can't say who/how/why.

The context was a vision seen by Steve though. He isn't actually shown ruling anything there, only Hydra in general, but certainly if he wasn't intending for things to go in that direction it'd have made him hesitate rather than making him certain of his victory.
 

Sandfox

Member
Steve is a villain in this story and not supposed to be sympathetic.

He's not though. He threw that guy out of an airplane. He's done tons of shady shit. He's allied with all the old scumbag Nazi pieces of shit. This is not "What if Captain America seized power in America via a coup d'etat?" it's "What if Captain America was a Nazi?" He is allied with Nazis. He literally killed Red Skull because Skull did a bad job at succeeding as Nazi.
He killed Red Skull because he thinks the Nazis corrupted Hydra.
 

Kurdel

Banned
none of this addresses how abhorrent the idea that the Allies would have changed the result of WW2 with through Cosmic Cube usage while leaving then tens of millions of dead and the massive destruction. That doesn't make things interesting, that just indicates bad storytelling.

Or maybe you are wrong in presuming a group of scientists in the 50's could use a cosmic cube in such a precise manner as to erase concentration camps from History.

It can all be handwaived with one line of dialogue, focusing on specifics in a reality warping story at issue 0 is a waste of breath IMO.
 
Hm.....



Yep, seems legit.

If they just go full nazi with this, then sure, the plot is wasted. It'll just resolve as another "hero overcomes evil mind control" story.

Your example just give another 'reason' as to why the Allies re-writing time was bullshit/doesn't make sense, unless there are severe limitations to the cube's power we don't know about, or the cabal theory.

If the Allies could go back and re-write things, unless the cube is limited, why wouldn't they go back and convince the Japanese to surrender before having to drop the bombs?

We're commenting on a story we don't even know, but possibilities are that:

A) The cube was new, their understanding of it was limited
B) It's been shown to be sentient with a childish understanding of the world. It could have simply not worked right, or been overwhelmed by what it was involved in.
C) They wanted to keep the bomb drop to create a deterrence in the new world order without having to reveal the cube.

Either way, we can't say a story which hasn't even been told yet is a bad one.
 
He's not though. He threw that guy out of an airplane. He's done tons of shady shit. He's allied with all the old scumbag Nazi pieces of shit. This is not "What if Captain America seized power in America via a coup d'etat?" it's "What if Captain America was a Nazi?" He is allied with Nazis. He literally killed Red Skull because Skull did a bad job at succeeding as Nazi.

But he's opposed to the nazis. He's working with Hydra against both sides during the war, then against the nazis who corrupted Hydra after it. Killing Red Skull had nothing to do with him "failing as a nazi." It was about reclaiming a centuries old organization from a newcomer usurper.
 

Conan-san

Member
Did archie sonic die? What happened with that complaint?

Last I heard (about arse end march) Everything was getting punted into default dates and I think its gotten as bad as to get the last of those Megadrive one offs axed.

So in a world where Riverdale and that feted Archie reboot is inexplicably doing hilarious numbers it seems for all the world to see that Archie is holding the licence by the neck untill it dies and goes back to sega who, at best case will give it to someone who actauly cares and isn't stupid with their contracts (Boom, IDW, Udon if they still do comics) or worst and most likely case, throw the lot of it in the bin.

Edit: Poking at The megathread at Sonic Retro now tells me STH 291 is axed too and there was statements from archie's subtitle department talking 'boot a statement at the arse end of april.
 
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