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[anothertech]

That's a content change. So no, its not allowed.

The point is, if you NEED the extra CPU cycles to do something over and above what you can do on PS4, the parity clause will disallow it.

Changing the resolution, frame-rate, draw-distance, etc. Are fine because the content is essentially unchanged, only the presentation has been improved.

Completely untrue.

 

[Averon]

Yeah. Sony's mindset in creating the Neo is fundamentally different from MS's mindset in regards to the Scorpio. If the Neo is indeed just a 'premium PS4', then current rumored specs are fine. The Neo was never meant to be the start of a new generation. So bumping the specs and increasing the cost of the machine doesn't make a lot of sense for Sony.

MS's outset when designing the Scorpio is that it is a new Xbox generation from them, not a half step upgrade like the Neo is. So it makes sense that MS will spend more time and effort to get the strongest specs they reasonably can into a late 2017 console.

The Neo and the Scorpio may be releasing back-to-back (relatively speaking), but their developments are guided by two very different philosophies.

 

[kyser73]

Big gamble to release Neo and PSVR during the same window in my opinion.

Surely the market for people who can afford both is tiny, which would force the purchase of one or the other no?

Buying either one indicates a person who is committed to staying in the Sony ecosystem, and probably more likely to buy the other product at some point in the future anyway, so buying either is a win for Sony.

 

[vpance]

I wonder if they can bin chip production based on whether they're capable of base mode operation but fail full Neo mode, and what yields would look like? It's possible a single new design is sufficient to satisfy the need for a slim unit as well as the Neo. Alternatively, since they've already gone to the trouble of qualifying the new design for base mode operation, they could presumably simply eliminate any functional units that aren't required and have a scaled down design that could yield low-cost volume at 14nm.

Best of all, they'd have sales data from one holiday season to see the PS4/Neo split before deciding how to proceed with cost reduction instead of having to commit to a single course of action up front.

I've speculated the same. If 14nm yields will be very poor for a while then I could see them doing this.

50% shut off or defective CU does sound extreme though, of course.

If they really will keep selling both PS4 and Neo for the rest of the gen, a 14nm version of the 18 CU GPU will be made at some point. No question of that.

 

[get2sammyb]

Just to jump back to the naming conversation that took place earlier in the thread, I think PS4K is too good for Sony not to use it.

I mean, that's naming gold right there.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

I think that is the case, but you'll have to convince those people who think Sony are ditching generations like MS and mandating forwards and backwards compatibility for all devices going forward.

Thankfully, outside of places like GAF, very few people will get worked up over the specifics of which CPU Neo ended up with.

I'm not particularly worried Sony will half-ass how they market the Neo, it's crucial they nail it both for this remaining generation and if they want use this model going forward. Sony only barely confirming the Neo, and then continuing to focus on the vanilla PS4 at E3 points to them being cautious about the messaging of the Neo to the public.

 

[gatti-man]

Yeah. Sony's mindset in creating the Neo is fundamentally different from MS's mindset in regards to the Scorpio. If the Neo is indeed just a 'premium PS4', then its specs are fine. The Neo was never meant to be the start of a new generation. So bumping the spcs and increasing the cost of the machine doesn't make a lot of sense for Sony.

MS's outset when designing the Scorpio is that it is a new Xbox generation from them, not a half step upgrade. So it makes sense that MS will spend more time and effort to get the strongest specs they reasonably can into a late 2017 console.

The Neo and the Scorpio may be releasing back-to-back (relatively speaking), but their development are guided by two very different philosophies.

MS has to shake things up. Neo is just more of the same (which is a good thing). If neo isn't a new generation I don't think an extra teraflop or 2 is going to be that big of a difference. Atleast not enough for a new generation. Scorpio is just meant to bring the core back to Xbox is how I see it. It will probably bring me back unless Sony buffs up the neo.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Buying either one indicates a person who is committed to staying in the Sony ecosystem, and probably more likely to buy the other product at some point in the future anyway, so buying either is a win for Sony.

I'm not saying Sony loses if someone chooses only one this year.

Obviously in a scenario where they buy one "down the line" is ideal for them. But I think that VR has the potential to be hurt by this. VR really needs that early adoption to ensure its long term viability.

Neo releasing alongside it does have the potential to stymie it because as I said earlier, the market for someone who can afford both would be small.

The real unknown though, is that which is chosen by a consumer wanting to spend $400 this year. I mean, you'd ASSUME an existing PS4 owner would spend their $400 on VR to further enhance their initial purchase, but will the lure of better looking games be too strong?

Going to be interesting to see how it plays out if they do release in the same window.

 

[Lemondish]

I've speculated the same. If 14nm yields will be very poor for a while then I could see them doing this.

50% shut off or defective CU does sound extreme though, of course.

If they really will keep selling both PS4 and Neo for the rest of the gen, a 14nm version of the 18 CU GPU will be made at some point. No question of that.

Care to explain why? The fabrication process is completely different. It would require Sony to dump a lot of money into a single production line for only their product since AMD will not be doing so.

 

[spwolf]

Care to explain why? The fabrication process is completely different. It would require Sony to dump a lot of money into a single production line for only their product since AMD will not be doing so.

cheaper PS4 will likely stay the best selling version and it will be profitable for sony to lower the production price, as they have done countless times before.

 

[bunkitz]

That would be really interesting. Then again, even if it were to release later, there isn't really time to change the specs (to better combat the Scorpio) if the rumors that dev kits have already been given to developers are true. This will mean that Sony is purposely releasing an inferior console, but a year ahead. I'm really curious how this is going to go. Perhaps it will be much cheaper than the Scorpio, in the same way that the standard PS4 launched at a lower price than the Xbox One.

 

[darkinstinct]

cheaper PS4 will likely stay the best selling version and it will be profitable for sony to lower the production price, as they have done countless times before.

Didn't AMD or somebody say that Sony was not willing to spend the 90 million for the die shrink, only Microsoft was? Why would they do it later?

 

[Prologue]

Want PS4 neo date already. Hesitant to even play PS4 games now, knowing they're most probably look and play noticeably better in a few months.

 

[gamerMan]

I think I will wait for next year's model. I will probably say that every year.

 

[ethomaz]

Care to explain why? The fabrication process is completely different. It would require Sony to dump a lot of money into a single production line for only their product since AMD will not be doing so.

14nm won't perhaps 16nm via TSMC... that will happen because Sony will need to cut cost of PS4.

 

[kyser73]

I'm not saying Sony loses if someone chooses only one this year.

Obviously in a scenario where they buy one "down the line" is ideal for them. But I think that VR has the potential to be hurt by this. VR really needs that early adoption to ensure its long term viability.

Neo releasing alongside it does have the potential to stymie it because as I said earlier, the market for someone who can afford both would be small.

The real unknown though, is that which is chosen by a consumer wanting to spend $400 this year. I mean, you'd ASSUME an existing PS4 owner would spend their $400 on VR to further enhance their initial purchase, but will the lure of better looking games be too strong?

Going to be interesting to see how it plays out if they do release in the same window.

Given that PSVR pre-orders made now can't guarantee a day 1 unit delivery and House flatly stated there will be constrained supply at launch, I honestly don't think this will be an issue.

 

[castaction]

Here is how I see it. Sony built an excellent console for the money with the PS4, why do people think that won't be true with the Neo. I would like to think their engineer team has balanced the Neo to produce the most cost effective console within their budget and what will also be easy for devs to take advantage of and make use of what's available.

People are expecting way too much here, you have to remember devs are making games primarily for the XB1 and PS4 here as that is where the market share is. Any extra development time and resources they use for Neo/Scorpio special touches is extra time and money they have to spend for pretty much zero return on that time and money.

I agree with you

 

[Inuhanyou]

MS has to shake things up. Neo is just more of the same (which is a good thing). If neo isn't a new generation I don't think an extra teraflop or 2 is going to be that big of a difference. Atleast not enough for a new generation. Scorpio is just meant to bring the core back to Xbox is how I see it. It will probably bring me back unless Sony buffs up the neo.

I don't think HW on that level will bring back a lot of the people MS burnt from PC or PS4, especially when they were people Sony burnt to begin with at the beginning of 7th gen.

The power of the PS4, although made a big fuss over, was generally a small part of its success.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I think I will wait for next year's model. I will probably say that every year.

Andrew House already said that they were not making units on that scale. THey would not even have the logistics to do so every year what with the pace of technology. They could only do this much because the PS4 already existed, and they simply upclocked what was there and added a new GPU.

 

[duhmetree]

There's no way around it... At $499-$599, I'm expecting a beefy PS4neo. While a standard PS4 gets a beautiful game like UC4 @ 30fps, I want that same game but with 'Ultra settings' and 60fps...

zen-lite 8 cores @ 2.1ghz
P10 (rx480) 36 cores @ 1096mhz ( roughly 5TFlops )
8GB GDDR5x ( 320 GB/s )
UHD Blu Ray drive

How much is 5x RAM? Couldn't this be done for $499?

I might be in the minority but this is the 'Ultra-High End' unit I want... even if it comes out to $599...

 

[Liabe Brave]

I might be in the minority but this is the 'Ultra-High End' unit I want... even if it comes out to $599...

It will be a long damn time before Sony will dare price another console at 599 U.S. dollars...the meme is still too strong.

That said, I fully expect a Neo launch price at least $449, no matter what tech is in it. An October release would be only two months after Xbox One S, a far inferior piece of kit that'll be $399.

 

[EventHorizon]

It will be a long damn time before Sony will dare price another console at 599 U.S. dollars...the meme is still too strong.

That said, I fully expect a Neo launch price at least $449, no matter what tech is in it. An October release would be only two months after Xbox One S, a far inferior piece of kit that'll be $399.

Around the time the Neo releases, the $299 Xbox One S 500GB model should be out. I expect the PS4 to drop to $299 and the Neo to launch at $399.

 

[truth411]

Yeah. Sony's mindset in creating the Neo is fundamentally different from MS's mindset in regards to the Scorpio. If the Neo is indeed just a 'premium PS4', then its specs are fine. The Neo was never meant to be the start of a new generation. So bumping the spcs and increasing the cost of the machine doesn't make a lot of sense for Sony.

MS's outset when designing the Scorpio is that it is a new Xbox generation from them, not a half step upgrade. So it makes sense that MS will spend more time and effort to get the strongest specs they reasonably can into a late 2017 console.

The Neo and the Scorpio may be releasing back-to-back (relatively speaking), but their development are guided by two very different philosophies.

/Thread

 

[kyser73]

Around the time the Neo releases, the $299 Xbox One S 500GB model should be out. I expect the PS4 to drop to $299 and the Neo to launch at $399.

As I said earlier, I expect:

Revised base model with a UHDBD player, $299. Possibly a couple of SKUs with different HDD type/size.

4.2tf Neo with UHDBD, $399-449 depending on HDD type OR size.

Remaining OG PS4s being sold at fire sale prices to clear stock.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

As I said earlier, I expect:

Revised base model with a UHDBD player, $299. Possibly a couple of SKUs with different HDD type/size.

4.2tf Neo with UHDBD, $399-449 depending on HDD type OR size.

Remaining OG PS4s being sold at fire sale prices to clear stock.

They already said the base PS4 is not being phased out. I expect it to be the better seller for years to come. Neo is not a replacement.

 

[kyser73]

They already said the base PS4 is not being phased out. I expect it to be the better seller for years to come. Neo is not a replacement.

Hence 'revised base model with UHDBD player'.

I can't see Sony not offering a base model without adding a 4K player.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

Given that PSVR pre-orders made now can't guarantee a day 1 unit delivery and House flatly stated there will be constrained supply at launch, I honestly don't think this will be an issue.

In all fairness, supply constrained doesn't always equate to super successful.

 

[icespide]

Hence 'revised base model with UHDBD player'.

I can't see Sony not offering a base model without adding a 4K player.

why?

In all fairness, supply constrained doesn't always equate to super successful.

true but Neo can't cannibalize something that you literally can't buy

 

[dr_rus]

Hence 'revised base model with UHDBD player'.

I can't see Sony not offering a base model without adding a 4K player.

Doubtful that the price of the UHD player will be an issue for those wanting to go 4K video route. But it would be a nice bonus, and is kinda essential in light of XBOS.

 

[madmackem]

In all fairness, supply constrained doesn't always equate to super successful.

It makes for killer pr though.

 

[gatti-man]

The power of the PS4, although made a big fuss over, was generally a small part of its success.

You don't know that. Being cheaper and having more power are two HUGE advantages. When you know your platform is getting the best version of all multi platform games that is a large selling point.

 

[Hawk269]

It will be a long damn time before Sony will dare price another console at 599 U.S. dollars...the meme is still too strong.

That said, I fully expect a Neo launch price at least $449, no matter what tech is in it. An October release would be only two months after Xbox One S, a far inferior piece of kit that'll be $399.

That is only for the limited edition 2tb model. There will be a 500gb model for $299.99. That is a compelling price point being that it bring UHD Blu Ray, UHD Streaming and HDR.

 

[TerryLee81]

Want PS4 neo date already. Hesitant to even play PS4 games now, knowing they're most probably look and play noticeably better in a few months.

Lots of new games will be released this fall, so have fun with the ones out now.

 

[opticalmace]

$500 USD would be more than I'm expecting. At that range I'd probably just buy a higher end video card and stick with my base PS4.

 

[Hawk269]

I agree with the poster above that stated that MS and Sony have different motives for releasing a NEO/Scorpio. IMHO, I think Sony was primarily looking at making NEO to not only provide a higher end model, but to usher in UHD Blu Ray. Sony is the only major 4k TV provider without an announced UHD Blu Ray player and looking at the history of Sony with PlayStation, they most likely were going to use the NEO as a Trojan Horse for UHD Blu Ray player. With AMD having better GPU tech, the most likely thought that offering a PS4 with improved gaming specs and a UHD player in one unit would be compelling.

I believe that is the motive behind Sony's thinking with the NEO. As a PS4 owner, I am totally fine with this and I would be there day one for it as well. It has enough extra GPU power to make a pretty significant difference in game performance.

 

[Primethius]

You don't know that. Being cheaper and having more power are two HUGE advantages. When you know your platform is getting the best version of all multi platform games that is a large selling point.

Power was a small part of it. The Playstation brand is massive worldwide.

The tables really only turned towards PS4 in the US, where the XB1 reveal played a much bigger part then power itself.

In fact, the $100 cheaper price point played a huge factor as well. Power is only something for message boards to discuss largely.

When you look at earlier months and especially holidays before PS4 really took a strong hold, price determined the winner of each month.

That's probably why Sony isn't going to attempt a specs bump for Neo. They don't need to.

It comes out a year before Scorpio and will be cheaper then Scorpio when it launches. Neo is essentially positioned to be succesful sales wise.

Scorpio, not so much.

 

[Inuhanyou]

You don't know that. Being cheaper and having more power are two HUGE advantages. When you know your platform is getting the best version of all multi platform games that is a large selling point.

The world wide market in general was not going to pick MS's console regardless. The only places Xbox matters are like 30% of the area Sony covers.

MS fucking up and Sony delivering the goods just made the only places where MS was supposed to dominate lose momentum entirely.

*edit*

Somebody already answered

 

[Renekton]

Hence 'revised base model with UHDBD player'.

I can't see Sony not offering a base model without adding a 4K player.

So it is confirmed the vanilla PS4 cannot do UHD playback?

I tried to read Rigby's thread about it and woke up half-naked on the streets.

 

[kyser73]

So it is confirmed the vanilla PS4 cannot do UHD playback?

I tried to read Rigby's thread about it and woke up half-naked on the streets.

I'm clearly reading his posts wrong as all I get is a strange buzzing sensation in my brain

why?

true but Neo can't cannibalize something that you literally can't buy

Doubtful that the price of the UHD player will be an issue for those wanting to go 4K video route. But it would be a nice bonus, and is kinda essential in light of XBOS.

 

[Xyphie]

Unless there's a die shrink of the original PS4 SoC I see them totally phasing out that model within 6 months to a year. Despite the extra 16-20 CUs the Neo SoC is likely quite a bit smaller than the original 348mm² chip thanks to the smaller node, maybe even more energy efficient. Polaris 10 is 232mm² for 40 CUs as a comparison.

 

[mrklaw]

I wonder if they can bin chip production based on whether they're capable of base mode operation but fail full Neo mode, and what yields would look like? It's possible a single new design is sufficient to satisfy the need for a slim unit as well as the Neo. Alternatively, since they've already gone to the trouble of qualifying the new design for base mode operation, they could presumably simply eliminate any functional units that aren't required and have a scaled down design that could yield low-cost volume at 14nm.

Best of all, they'd have sales data from one holiday season to see the PS4/Neo split before deciding how to proceed with cost reduction instead of having to commit to a single course of action up front.

Hmm. I like that idea. Having such a similar chip except higher clocked and more CUs could let them supply both ps4 and neo.

 

[mrklaw]

Highly doubt it, I think PS5 will be completely backwards compatible but nothing about the ps4 Neo or regular ps4 will be able to play ps5 games. That would be a huge boat anchor to a system that will probably have 7nm SOC chip and HBM2/3 ram in 2020 (or 5nm SOC in 2021). Also Sony already said there will be know games on Neo that won't release on PS4. MS on the other hand don't give a damn since all there games will be on PC anyways. Neo gives Sony the mid gen boost till the technology for a PS5 is feasible and affordable. 4k tvs will have mass market penetration by then, and VR is highly dependant on resolutions and framrates. Until then Neo will provide 1080p with Max effects and the occasional 4k indie game with 4k media play back. Consumers overwhelmingly have 1080p tvs right now.

That's how I see it.

I don't see 10/7 nm coming that quickly - at least for large APU chips. And if neo doesn't play ps5 games, then you're basically saying neo only has a three year life before being replaced. That would be a bad thing to do to your consumers. If they're flight incremental then they have to have consistency and support each machine for approximately the same length that a normal gen would have (6 yards or so).

 

[Inuhanyou]

Unless there's a die shrink of the original PS4 SoC I see them totally phasing out that model within 6 months to a year. Despite the extra 16-20 CUs the Neo SoC is likely quite a bit smaller than the original 348mm² chip thanks to the smaller node, maybe even more energy efficient. Polaris 10 is 232mm² for 40 CUs as a comparison.

At this point, the cheaper price of adoption would be something they would have as an advantage as opposed to the higher priced NEO. OG PS4 is still competing with XB1 and XB1 S, i expect them to aggressively price it as time goes on while NEO stays relatively stable for a while

 

[Renekton]

Unless there's a die shrink of the original PS4 SoC I see them totally phasing out that model within 6 months to a year. Despite the extra 16-20 CUs the Neo SoC is likely quite a bit smaller than the original 348mm² chip thanks to the smaller node, maybe even more energy efficient. Polaris 10 is 232mm² for 40 CUs as a comparison.

Nowadays, it doesn't seem smaller = cheaper for newer processes. For Intel, analysts saw lower gross margin from moving from 22nm to 14nm, despite smaller die size. Maybe more defects or other issues. Also according to semiengineering and EEtimes, supposedly cost per silicon is not going down.

Finally I read that a direct shrink of vanilla Jaguar from 28nm planar to 14nm FinFET is not straightforward and costs big design money, so Sony/MS decided to put the money instead into a stronger APU.

 

[Putty]

I agree with the poster above that stated that MS and Sony have different motives for releasing a NEO/Scorpio. IMHO, I think Sony was primarily looking at making NEO to not only provide a higher end model, but to usher in UHD Blu Ray. Sony is the only major 4k TV provider without an announced UHD Blu Ray player and looking at the history of Sony with PlayStation, they most likely were going to use the NEO as a Trojan Horse for UHD Blu Ray player. With AMD having better GPU tech, the most likely thought that offering a PS4 with improved gaming specs and a UHD player in one unit would be compelling.

I believe that is the motive behind Sony's thinking with the NEO. As a PS4 owner, I am totally fine with this and I would be there day one for it as well. It has enough extra GPU power to make a pretty significant difference in game performance.

The more i've been thinking about it i came to the same conclusion....Can't wait! I do believe we will see a "true" PS5 Q4 2019 AT THE EARLIEST but more than likely Q4 2020.

 

[Inuhanyou]

The more i've been thinking about it i came to the same conclusion....Can't wait! I do believe we will see a "true" PS5 Q4 2019 AT THE EARLIEST but more than likely Q4 2020.

If that's how long it takes, i think its fine to release NEO as a stop gap solution

 

[mrklaw]

Unless there's a die shrink of the original PS4 SoC I see them totally phasing out that model within 6 months to a year. Despite the extra 16-20 CUs the Neo SoC is likely quite a bit smaller than the original 348mm² chip thanks to the smaller node, maybe even more energy efficient. Polaris 10 is 232mm² for 40 CUs as a comparison.

14nm at 250mmsq would likely be much more expensive at the moment than a 320mm 28nm chip.

I wonder if they could do a 14nm APU with 20 Polaris CUs? Might be more in line with Polaris 11 but I guess you'd still have to pay for the design work to make it? I'm sure Sony will pick the most cost effective route. If they expect high volumes of PS4 to continue then a slim might be required. If they expect people to switch rapidly to neo becoming the main machine sold at retail then they might hold off and keep PS4 as-is until they can phase it out.

why?

Because otherwise you'll have Xbox one S on the market at $299 with 4K bluray and 4K streaming, vs ps4 without. I think I read that the UHD drive isn't anything special or expensive, it's mainly the HDMI 2.0 and decoding etc that is needed. I can't imagine a HDMI 2.0 port would add much cost to the PS4, and the decoding can be done in software if the hardware doesn't support it.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I know that. Just saying nothing in the works for either company is going alter the way this generation is going.

There are no more generations, this is the long game now.

 

[The God]

Why are people still talking about a PS5 after what Andrew House said about the smartphone sm cycle?

 

[Renekton]

There are no more generations, this is the long game now.

Depends if Scorpio shows Zen CPU being feasible.

If the entire PS4X1 line is stuck with Jaguar, then they need a clean generational breakaway eventually.

Why are people still talking about a PS5 after what Andrew House said about the smartphone sm cycle?

They are justifying more frequest upgrades, but it doesn't rule out generational breakoff as everything else is up in the air.