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[jdstorm]

Examples?

I'm not talking about a laptop with power saver settings here. I'm talking about small, fanless mobile devices with GPU's that double in horsepower once connected to a charging cable or electrical outlet.

I'm not saying it isn't possible. But likely? Yeah no, the more likely scenario is that this is a case of Nintendo dreams at play when confronted with a relatively underpowered console again. Same thing happened with Wii-U.

Name one pre-N3DS example of a company using an eyetracking camera to shift a parralax barrier in real time with an autosterescopic screen.

Sometimes Nintendo uses existing technologies to do new things.

You are being oddly specific. You are also potentially falsely assuming that the handheld mode is the primary concern for the heat window. If the main profile is the Docked version. Then reducing the clock speed when portable to increase battery life and help with the thermals is a very reasonable assumption to make.

Or Nintendo could just put a fan in there that only activates when docked. Both are currently existing technologies that would be reasonably easy to implement.

 

[antonz]

If you want reliable overclocks, an increase of 100% is not likely, think more like 10-15%.

Also remember that the Shield TV has a fan in it too, so it's entirely possible the dev kits aren't overclocked, just setup to be very reliable, or using off the shelf fans.


Call me pessimistic too then, when dealing with Nintendo, I like to bet on the weaker side.

You quote "specs" of phones, but remember that phones do not run 100% clocks all the time, in fact when in gaming, and other intensive operations, often the GPU clocks are throttled back due to thermal throttling, since the heat generated is too much for passive cooling, not to mention that battery life is hugely affected.

If nintendo is making a dedicated gaming handheld, they would likely want the clocks to remain steady and predictable, so thermal throttling will be avoided. How will they do that? Likely by reducing the maximum clock speeds.


It was speculation that it was overclocked, based on there being a fan. There was never any confirmation. Remember the shield TV also has a fan in it.

The fan being noisy is what leads the assumption on overclocking. Shield TV does indeed have a fan but even under max usage its basically silent.

 

[MuchoMalo]

Oh you don't say? These chips in mobile units have very specific clocks because there are thermal constraints? How do you imagine this NX handheld will vent the heat from doubling it's clocks all of a sudden?

Sure, it's somehow imaginable that Nintendo devised an intricate system to provide for additional cooling in the dock or heatpipes or whatever that facilitates an overclock while docked.

It's possible. But not very likely. It would likely be more trouble than it's worth.

Adding in some vents, heat fins, and a fan isn't worth the trouble and they'd rather have their games look like crap when hooked up to a TV due to every single one being upscaled? Well, if that's your opinion you're free to think it, much like we're free to disagree. Obviously it wouldn't be too bad if the screen is 720p or better, but is that what you're honestly expecting?

And you still haven't explained the fan in the dev kit.

 

[Dark Cloud]

People talking about "XB1 performance, maybe" are inevitably going to be disappointed because, as we've seen from practically ever Nintendo hardware speculation/rumor, expectation only go up, not down. By the time this thing is revealed there are going to be people genuinely expecting "docked" performance to be between PS4 and Neo, when realistically it will do well to be 50% of XB1.

Yeah, ok make stuff up. Nobody is even remotely bringing up Neo unless Nintendo were to announce its that powerful.

 

[LegendofLex]

What does that have to do with the portable being more powerful docked?

If they underclock the thing while it's running on the battery and achieve a certain performance threshold (to preserve battery life), they can still increase the clock speed while it's running on a power supply and hit a higher performance threshold (because battery life is no longer a constraint).

I'm not saying there's extra CPU power in the dock, just that being on a power supply makes it easier to supply more literal power (i.e. electrical energy) to the CPU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_frequency_scaling
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_voltage_scaling

I don't think this would bring it up to even Xbox One level or anything, just that it'd make it less difficult to achieve different performance levels for NX games (540p on battery; up to 1080p plugged in) appropriate for the small handheld screen and a large TV screen.

 

[Peterthumpa]

Now that I think about it, would it be wise to have a game like Breath of the Wild on the go? Even if the NX allows for 5 hours of battery life on continuous play, this game doesn't seen suited for mobile gamers. Most of the popular 3ds games were rpg's, puzzle games, and platformers, games that could be played in short burst. The new Zelda is is an open world adventure whose dungeons will probably consume a lot of players' time based on sheer exploration alone. Like other Gaffers have said in the other threads, either Nintendo is making another dedicated console and having this be their premier handheld device, or this is a halfbaked idea that is short-sided and won't truly florish as a console and is costly as a mobile gaming device.

But...this is just speculation.

This issue didn't stop people playing hours and hours of Fire Emblems and Final Fantasies on both 3DS/Vita.

 

[JCH!]

I wonder when we'll reach concern trolling levels with "keep expectations in check". It's a thread about a tech rumour, not a buying guide thread.

It's OK KingSnake, nobody is telling you to stop speculating. You can speculate your heart away. We are participating in this rumour thread by voicing our opinion, that is all.

I don't think a healthy dose of skepticism could be considered 'concern trolling' but I might be wrong.

 

[KingSnake]

People talking about "XB1 performance, maybe" are inevitably going to be disappointed because, as we've seen from practically ever Nintendo hardware speculation/rumor, expectation only go up, not down. By the time this thing is revealed there are going to be people genuinely expecting "docked" performance to be between PS4 and Neo, when realistically it will do well to be 50% of XB1.

So? Let the people be disappointed. We are all mature people who deal with our own emotions. And if we can't we have epic meltdowns. Win-win.

I find it more damaging for a forum to actively try and disrupt an interesting discussion. If you're concerned about some people's well being there are always PMs that can be sent.

 

[dhlt25]

as long as I can get wiiu level graphic on the go at 540p and then bring that home and have it scale up to 60fps 1080p I'll be very happy.

 

[blu]

Factors like whether or not the dock improves performance, etc.. Information I do not have right now. This is why I don't share information ahead of time, because of shitty responses like this. I was right to keep things to myself, and will continue to do so in the future.

Come on, Nate, that's one shitty response in the entire thread - that's god-tier in youtube metrics ; )

 

[joesiv]

Question: how would a dock cool the components of a closed system?

I've kind of been thinking about this. one idea that I thought of, which is probably totally not what they'd do, is make the heat sync exposed, or rather have the rear plate of the console be thermally attached to the chipset, similar to how USB plugs often use the metal to dissipate heat. Then the dock could just blow air over the rear of the console to cool the CPU.

... I donno, I still feel that it's more likely that we're all over-estimating the performance of it, and even docked, it won't be some Xbox One killer.

I'm going to hedge my bets, and say below Wii U in portable mode, and ~500gflops in docked mode.

 

[Dark Cloud]

I just want to see the NX so all questions will be answered once and for all.

 

[MuchoMalo]

Call me pessimistic too then, when dealing with Nintendo, I like to bet on the weaker side.

You quote "specs" of phones, but remember that phones do not run 100% clocks all the time, in fact when in gaming, and other intensive operations, often the GPU clocks are throttled back due to thermal throttling, since the heat generated is too much for passive cooling, not to mention that battery life is hugely affected.

If nintendo is making a dedicated gaming handheld, they would likely want the clocks to remain steady and predictable, so thermal throttling will be avoided. How will they do that? Likely by reducing the maximum clock speeds.

iPhones aren't known to throttle, and the NX is likely much larger and thicker than an iPhone anyway. Either way expecting like 150-200MHz is beyond ridiculous. That would be slower than Wii U in terms of performance. I don't see a reason to expect lower clock speeds than 3DS either. So yes, you're being unrealistically pessimistic.

I don't think we will find this out until it's unveiled (at this rate I could be wrong) but I want to know the ram solution. Not worried about anything else hardware wise.

It's safe to say that it'll be LPDDR4. If the bus is 64-bit, the max is 6GB. If it's 128-bit, the max is 12GB. 4-6 GB is what I'd expect.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Adding in some vents, heat fins, and a fan isn't worth the trouble and they'd rather have their games look like crap when hooked up to a TV due to every single one being upscaled? Well, if that's your opinion you're free to think it, much like we're free to disagree.

Absolutely. Re-read what you just posted. Some of you are really letting your hopes and desires cloud your judgement. Nintendo prioritizes vastly different things in their handheld over sheer performance while docked.

Adding in 'some vents, heat fins and a fan' is not just a concession you make when you want to design and put out a mass market handheld device. And for what? A slightly higher resolution when docked? That's likely all the way down on their list of priorities with this thing.

I've kind of been thinking about this. one idea that I thought of, which is probably totally not what they'd do, is make the heat sync exposed, or rather have the rear plate of the console be thermally attached to the chipset, similar to how USB plugs often use the metal to dissipate heat. Then the dock could just blow air over the rear of the console to cool the CPU.

I mean, read this. Do you imagine Nintendo going this route? Where the user will pick up the handheld off the dock and grab this heated-up slab attached to exposed heatsinks?

Yes, it's possible. But not realistic.

 

[ethomaz]

Show me a device that does what you're saying. Where a GPU is designed to be utilized in a handheld form factor and is operating perfectly within thermal parameters but suddenly doubles it's performance when hooked up to power without overheating.

I think you guys are grasping at straws here.

It is not hard to imaginary that.

Device with active cooler turned off in mobile mode with clocks in stage 1.
Device turning the cooler on in docked mode with clocks in stage 2.

Ohhhhhh wait... every notebook works like that.

 

[Narroo]

That would be so laughably sad. lol

Hey, it would be a better battery life than the game gear.

 

[KingSnake]

I don't see NX having active cooling. It would make it too bulky. But on a Pascal architecture it should reach decent clocks without needing that.

 

[Night Angel]

It is not hard to imaginary that.

Device with active cooler turned off in mobile mode with clocks in stage 1.
Device turning the cooler on in docked mode with clocks in stage 2.

Ohhhhhh wait... every notebook works like that.

Notebooks are exactly like tablets and phones, what with their fans and doohickeys and whatnot.

 

[Toparaman]

If they underclock the thing while it's running on the battery and achieve a certain performance threshold (to preserve battery life), they can still increase the clock speed while it's running on a power supply and hit a higher performance threshold (because battery life is no longer a constraint).

I'm not saying there's extra CPU power in the dock, just that being on a power supply makes it easier to supply more literal power (i.e. electrical energy) to the CPU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_frequency_scaling
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_voltage_scaling

I don't think this would bring it up to even Xbox One level or anything, just that it'd make it less difficult to achieve different performance levels for NX games (540p on battery; up to 1080p plugged in) appropriate for the small handheld screen and a large TV screen.

Okay, that makes sense. I think that's very possible.

 

[chaosblade]

Absolutely. Re-read what you just posted. Some of you are really letting your hopes and desires cloud your judgement. Nintendo prioritizes vastly different things in their handheld over sheer performance while docked.

Adding in 'some vents, heat fins and a fan' is not just a concession you make when you want to design and put out a mass market handheld device. And for what? A slightly higher resolution when docked? That's likely all the way down on their list of priorities with this thing.



I mean, read this. Do you imagine Nintendo going this route? Where the user will pick up the handheld off the dock and grab this heated-up slab attached to exposed heatsinks?

Yes, it's possible. But not realistic.

I think the problem is that you are looking at the portable as being the base specs, and the system "overclocks" from there running super hot and inefficiently.

More realistically the full specs would be when it's plugged in/docked, and it underclocks to reduce power draw and (to a much lesser extent) heat while running on battery.

 

[Peterc]

I just want to see the NX so all questions will be answered once and for all.

Not about the power. Nintendo did never revealed specs and there is a good reason for.

 

[Fourth Storm]

Oh you don't say? These chips in mobile units have very specific clocks because there are thermal constraints? How do you imagine this NX handheld will vent the heat from doubling it's clocks all of a sudden?

Sure, it's somehow imaginable that Nintendo devised an intricate system to provide for additional cooling in the dock or heatpipes or whatever that facilitates an overclock while docked.

It's possible. But not very likely. It would likely be more trouble than it's worth.

Then, there's the issue of RAM bandwidth. Any overclock would likely be bottlenecked by this anyway.

I'm thinking RAM will be something like 4GB-6GB of lpDDR4 at ~50 GB/s. Or possibly half of that bandwidth plus an on-chip SRAM framebuffer of 16MB-32MB. Whatever fits. To me, this smells like a Gamecube to Wii scenario if we're thinking of NX as a home console.

 

[Dark Cloud]

Not about the power. Nintendo did never revealed specs and there is a good reason for.

Well whatever. I just want to see games. Power is the last thing I'm worried about.

 

[Peterc]

Well whatever. I just want to see games. Power is the last thing I'm worried about.

Agree

 

[KingSnake]

One way that I thought about that could make NX get active cooling while docked is vents where the detachable controllers are clipping into the handheld. But I'm not too hopeful for that.

 

[Night Angel]

I think the problem is that you are looking at the portable as being the base specs, and the system "overclocks" from there running super hot and inefficiently.

More realistically the full specs would be when it's plugged in/docked, and it underclocks to reduce power draw and (to a much lesser extent) heat while running on battery.

So you expect them to release a portable with active cooling, yes? Because for that to work it would need to have active cooling that is disabled in non-docked mode, which would be a huge waste of space and potential cost contributor for what is supposed to be a mobile device.

 

[Dark Cloud]

Agree

I guess this was the wrong topic for me to say that since this topic is about specs and not games lol.

I mean this spec stuff is fun to talk about, but talking about the games we will play on NX is the most exciting.

 

[Mr Swine]

Then, there's the issue of RAM bandwidth. Any overclock would likely be bottlenecked by this anyway.

I'm thinking RAM will be something like 4GB-6GB of lpDDR4 at ~50 GB/s. Or possibly half of that bandwidth plus an on-chip SRAM framebuffer of 16MB-32MB. Whatever fits.

A frame buffer would take too much space, I rather think Nvidia uses their color compression and a better texture compression to save bandwidth. They could probably throw in a normal map compression if needed

 

[nhlducks35]

People seriously underestimate what a portable full featured FIFA, Madden, and NBA 2K would mean to some people.

If the NX gets a decent NHL game, which is about as likely as a WWE Game having perfect collision detection, I would probably have to fight back tears.

This sounds exactly like the same arguments people used before the Vita released

 

[chaosblade]

So you expect them to release a portable with active cooling, yes? Because for that to work it would need to have active cooling that is disabled in non-docked mode, which would be a huge waste of space and potential cost contributor for what is supposed to be a mobile device.

No? Honestly I'm not even expecting it to need active cooling while docked. Maybe an external fan.

 

[ethomaz]

Notebooks are exactly like tablets and phones, what with their fans and doohickeys and whatnot.

Yes.

That why say that a device can't up clock and turn on fans in docked mode while being downclocked with passive cooler in mobile mode is not something ou of this world.

Actual MacBook uses only passive cooler without fan with great performance.

I do believe Nintendo can make some fans to run only in docked mode.

 

[civilstrife]

Maybe the dock has extra processing and active cooling to match? Maybe another Tegra chip in SLI.

 

[LegendofLex]

Okay, that makes sense. I think that's very possible.

I think people need to stop looking at Nintendo's approach with NX as being about anything but trying to provide a device that satisfies the mobile consumption needs of the Japanese market (by being portable) and the more TV-focused consumption habits of the Western market (by producing acceptable visuals on a TV) at the same time.

 

[Father_Brain]

This sounds exactly like the same arguments people used before the Vita released

Because they are.

 

[Hoo-doo]

I think the problem is that you are looking at the portable as being the base specs, and the system "overclocks" from there running super hot and inefficiently.

More realistically the full specs would be when it's plugged in/docked, and it underclocks to reduce power draw and (to a much lesser extent) heat while running on battery.

The device is from all accounts primarily a handheld. I can't imagine them designing the handheld with cooling systems in place that are simply inactive when you are in handheld mode and only activates when docked. What a complete waste.

Design constraints on these handhelds are very narrow that I doubt they are wasting all that space, time and energy to appease a core few users that really care about their console being a tiny bit closer towards the Xbox One.

 

[Fourth Storm]

A frame buffer would take too much space, I rather think Nvidia uses their color compression and a better texture compression to save bandwidth. They could probably throw in a normal map compression if needed

It's possible. I suppose I am just hoping for a nice little bump over Wii U's rumored 32 GB/s eDRAM. It has to be enough for Nintendo to render all of their games in 1080p this gen and not just 1 or 2.

 

[Vena]

Notebooks are exactly like tablets and phones, what with their fans and doohickeys and whatnot.

The real problem is not the fans or the doohickeys, its really the RAM. Changing clockspeeds (possible) does not change the amount of available RAM as I am sure Nintendo has not figured out how to download more RAM. The only option here would be if, in portable mode, the RAM is half (or more) unused to conserve power but then that's still a spatial concern on a certain-sized die.

 

[antonz]

This sounds exactly like the same arguments people used before the Vita released

Madden Vita was not very good is the problem and sure an NX Madden could suck too. If they actually delivered the full package and didn't cut corners it could make an impact. Madden Vita was a lot like Madden Wii. They cut tons of corners and delivered a partial package expecting people to accept their poor effort.

 

[Father_Brain]

Madden Vita was not very good is the problem and sure an NX Madden could suck too. If they actually delivered the full package and didn't cut corners it could make an impact. Madden Vita was a lot like Madden Wii. They cut tons of corners and delivered a partial package expecting people to accept their poor effort.

Much like Wii U, the Vita entries in those series (and CoD, AC, etc.) sold so badly that it points to a fundamental demographic mismatch between the IP and the platform. If that mismatch wasn't there, even shitty, compromised ports would sell better on name recognition alone.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

This sounds exactly like the same arguments people used before the Vita released

Yep.

 

[jdstorm]

I think the problem is that you are looking at the portable as being the base specs, and the system "overclocks" from there running super hot and inefficiently.

More realistically the full specs would be when it's plugged in/docked, and it underclocks to reduce power draw and (to a much lesser extent) heat while running on battery.

This. So much this

It's also worth mentioning that AMD flops <Nvidia Flops in roughly a 4:6 ratio. An Xbox one runs at 1.2Tflps. (AMD) which would equate to .8Tflps (Nvidia) on the current X1 we have mobile devices hitting .5Tflps (Nvidia)

Obviously we can't know how much Nintendo will look to priotrize Power Draw/clock speeds vs Performance. However with the advances to 16nmFF and Pascal we know that a Pascal Tegra chip will be significantly more efficient then the X1. We also know that the NX is likely to have a better CPU then the Xbox one.

A device with a better CPU then an Xbox one and say 80% of its GPU power isn't an unreasonable assumption to be priced at 200USD (especially if Nvidia gave Nintendo a great deal)

 

[MuchoMalo]

Absolutely. Re-read what you just posted. Some of you are really letting your hopes and desires cloud your judgement. Nintendo prioritizes vastly different things in their handheld over sheer performance while docked.

Adding in 'some vents, heat fins and a fan' is not just a concession you make when you want to design and put out a mass market handheld device. And for what? A slightly higher resolution when docked? That's likely all the way down on their list of priorities with this thing.

So you think that this isn't a hybrid has just been designed as a handheld which happens to connect to the TV and nothing more?

Actually, that's it. You can't see this as actually being a hybrid and are thus focused on it being a handheld and nothing more. Out of curiosity, what are you expecting for the screen size and resolution?

Edit: Also, what Chaosblade said.

 

[tci]

Seems plausible

My thoughts on this. The Tegra X1 chip was launched in march 2015. That would make a NX March launch fitting for a "X2" announcement at the same time in March 2017.

As for the power, It will probably be between WiiU and PS4 is my guess. I am debating for myself if it will have 2 power configurations. One for portable and the second for the dock (home console). It some way it would make sense, in other ways not. In terms of battery time this would make sense. And like the talks about the PS4 Neo having to modes, it is fair to think NX might have the same type of setup.

Devs could choose to either; 1) Make a game for the home console primary, 2) Make it portable only, 3) For both, with some kind of switching between graphics settings. I feel this would make it a bit too consumer unfriendly, unless Nintendo label it well, and do proper PR.

 

[Enduin]

This sounds exactly like the same arguments people used before the Vita released

I don't really care too much about any of those franchises, but the fact that the NX isn't just a portable but will also let you play that same game on your TV, possibly in full HD, could be a very tempting prospect for a lot of people. Though I would assume that the online community is often one of the biggest contributing factors for which version people get, which is far and away Nintendo's weakest area.

 

[LeleSocho]

Actual MacBook uses only passive cooler without fan with great performance.

[Citation needed]

 

[NateDrake]

Come on, Nate, that's one shitty response in the entire thread - that's god-tier in youtube metrics ; )

True. My sinus infection has made me grumpy as the day goes on.

 

[chaosblade]

The device is from all accounts primarily a handheld. I can't imagine them designing the handheld with cooling systems in place that are simply inactive when you are in handheld mode and only activates when docked. What a complete waste.

Design constraints on these handhelds are very narrow that I doubt they are wasting all that space, time and energy to appease a core few users that really care about their console being a tiny bit closer towards the Xbox One.

This assumes it needs active cooling at all. It's probably going to be a watered down version of Tegra X2, which itself is going to be a fairly low power chip. It's not unreasonable that a cut down variant of a high performance "mobile" chip will be able to run with passive cooling.

Talk of heatpipes and stuff seems crazy to me.

 

[KingSnake]

The real problem is not the fans or the doohickeys, its really the RAM. Changing clockspeeds (possible) does not change the amount of available RAM as I am sure Nintendo has not figured out how to download more RAM. The only option here would be if, in portable mode, the RAM is half (or more) unused to conserve power but then that's still a spatial concern on a certain-sized die.

This is Tegra X1:

http://hothardware.com/news/hands-on-with-nvidia-tegra-x1-with-benchmarks-and-video

A Pascal based Tegra on 16nm should not have issues in terms of space unless we expect a mini handheld from Nintendo (and we shouldn't seeing how 3ds XL is usually the better selling version).

 

[ethomaz]

The device is from all accounts primarily a handheld. I can't imagine them designing the handheld with cooling systems in place that are simply inactive when you are in handheld mode and only activates when docked. What a complete waste.

Design constraints on these handhelds are very narrow that I doubt they are wasting all that space, time and energy to appease a core few users that really care about their console being a tiny bit closer towards the Xbox One.

So it is not a hybrid system??? Only a handheld???

I guess it is not what Nintendo is aiming with NX.

The focus is both.

 

[Father_Brain]

So you think that this isn't a hybrid has just been designed as a handheld which happens to connect to the TV and nothing more?

Owing to the practical heat issues, I wouldn't expect it to use any sort of active cooling even when plugged in.