I wouldn't say either implementation is "fixed" or "broken," as making the player invincible during certain animations can be done deliberately as well.
Dark Souls II definitely makes a move in the direction of making backstabs less powerful, however.
Almost all of your points are wrong in some way or another. Not to mention everyone in this thread is worrying about the game becoming too simplified and you're talking about it sounding too frustrating. I guess it's impossible to please everyone.
You can warp from the beginning, respec, there are more frequent bonfires, consumable healing items and your point no. 3 (
only certain enemies, not all of them
) can be seen as a simplification too. I don't know if it's really a spoiler but you tagged it so I might as well do the same.
Leveling up is as 'difficult' as it was in Demon's Souls and the health system is more forgiving than DeS. They've added more helpful features, especially if you have a limited playtime. Now you can make it to the next bonfire quicker than you did in the first game. As for invasions, there are ways to prevent that and if it comes down to it, you can always play offline.
Backstab deals massive damage and since you're invulnerable during a backstab you don't have to worry about the other enemy hitting you. Convenient way to deal with more than one enemy in Dark Souls.
I'm sure you will encounter enemies in groups much more often too in DS2 which will surely make the combat harder.
Rather surprising he didn't bring up only starting out with 1 estus flask as reasons why DS2 will be harder.
I wonder how many times you can upgrade the flask before you even have to leave the town/starting areas
Backstab deals massive damage and since you're invulnerable during a backstab you don't have to worry about the other enemy hitting you. Convenient way to deal with more than one enemy in Dark Souls.
I'm sure you will encounter enemies in groups much more often too in DS2 which will surely make the combat harder.
Rather surprising he didn't bring up only starting out with 1 estus flask as reasons why DS2 will be harder.
I wonder how many times you can upgrade the flask before you even have to leave the town/starting areas
To be honest, I'm not opposed to respeccing as long as there is some king of consequence to it. Kind of like the soulsucker attack from Old King Allant, but without the possibility of getting the souls back.
Not saying it's a bad thing, but it is effectively decreasing some of the effectiveness. It came in handy especially during places like the Duke's Archive, where you could stab the crystal soldiers while evading an arrow that was about to strike you, the nearby enemy or a channeler.
I have done 2 shieldless characters/playthroughs in Dark Souls. Its pretty easy if you have a weapon with long reach or just have good timing on dodges.
And in Demon's Souls (which I only have finished once), once I got the Dragon Bone Smasher, I stopped using a shield.
The bonfire warping introduced early on and the ability to freely respec are questionable design decisions. There's a danger they could combine to undermine thorough, surprise-ridden exploration and consequential decision-making, two hallmarks of the series.
I'm trusting in FROM to still build in the shortcuts into their level design. I would imagine that the people who warp everywhere instead of exploring will ultimately wind up in missing out on entire areas and a significant chunk of the content if they do that.
The respec doesn't bother me because I imagine there's a significant cost associated with it. People were figuring out glitches to fast level their PVP characters/builds anyways so I think it's just more that they're just accepting that fact. Much like people were figuring out ways to talk to each other so they incorporated the rings and put their own twist on enabling chat.
I understand people's hesitation, but I'm more trusting in FROM to build these things out in a way won't deviate in the experiences we're accustomed to with the series.
Some whining from me here, but after reading these previews it seems to me that they are making the game too hard and frustrating. It seems every new detail they are incorporating is there just to make it a more frustrating experience.
It is harder to level up
Dieing makes your health 50% and worse if you die a lot
Enemies can only be killed 15 times (yes there is some way to make them spawn again)
Anyone can be invaded
Backstabbing is much harder
And now there is a "special" monster showing up whenever it feels like it
Having limited playtime due to family, kids and work, I really need something here to make it a tollerable experience, I do not shy from difficult games, but when every "helping" feature from Dark Souls 1 is removed, I can't see what ways up for that in this game.
As I have said before: It is not the difficulty that makes the prequels one of the best games of the gen, it is the lore, the story, the weapons, the fighting combined with a difficulty which makes you appreciate everything.
Guys, of course there's going to be shortcuts. The warping will likely only bring us to a certain few bonfires scattered around the world; but from there on out, you'll still have to progress through the whole area on foot. I'm personally very excited that you can warp from the beginning. I'm ready to tackle the overpowered mofos in middle to late-game areas on a low soul level and get some awesome loot early on!
Guys, of course there's going to be shortcuts. The warping will likely only bring us to a certain few bonfires scattered around the world; but from there on out, you'll still have to progress through the whole area on foot. I'm personally very excited that you can warp from the beginning. I'm ready to tackle the overpowered mofos in middle to late-game areas on a low soul level and get some awesome loot early on!
Maybe I misinterpreted what you mean, but im just clarifying that you cant warp to ANY bonfires from the start of the game. You have to find the new bonfires by foot first, which will then allow you to warp from there on. So people who use the warp a lot, will still have to explore the world to FIND the bonfires first. Im not too worried about the change.
Maybe I misinterpreted what you mean, but im just clarifying that you cant warp to ANY bonfires from the start of the game. You have to find the new bonfires by foot first, which will then allow you to warp from there on. So people who use the warp a lot, will still have to explore the world to FIND the bonfires first. Im not too worried about the change.
Oh okay, didn't know that. I thought you'd be able to warp from the beginning of the game. Well that's totally fine, too, of course.
But that raises the question whether we'll be able to take several paths from the beginning of the game, like the way you could progress from Firelink Shrine to the Catacombs, Undead Burg or New Londo. I hope they did something similar to the starting area!
Oh okay, didn't know that. I thought you'd be able to warp from the beginning of the game. Well that's totally fine, too, of course.
But that raises the question whether we'll be able to take several paths from the beginning of the game, like the way you could progress from Firelink Shrine to the Catacombs, Undead Burg or New Londo. I hope they did something similar to the starting area!
Yeah I agree, and from what ive heard from people that actually played it, it definitely sounds like there IS multiple paths with tough enemies/secret doors/strange items etc. which all sounds pretty cool.
It's more lenient than Demon's Souls, which removed half your maximum health for dying once. Dark Souls II reduces is by 10% per death up to a maximum penalty of 50%.
Though the maximum penalty goes up if you rack up a lot of sin by invading and killing other players.
The beginning of Dark Souls would have been fairly similar if you had the ability to warp to bonfires from the start. The first warpable bonfire is Undead Parish and just getting there can be fairly challenging for new players and the shortcuts along the way help quite a bit. Once you do reach it however you get the church shortcut, which is very fast. The biggest change would probably be the ease of getting out of Blighttown in a flash. That said, this game is designed for the instant warps from the start and I'm sure they'll try to be sensible about what is a warpable bonfire and what isn't.
Some whining from me here, but after reading these previews it seems to me that they are making the game too hard and frustrating. It seems every new detail they are incorporating is there just to make it a more frustrating experience.
It is harder to level up
Dieing makes your health 50% and worse if you die a lot
Enemies can only be killed 15 times (yes there is some way to make them spawn again)
Anyone can be invaded
Backstabbing is much harder
And now there is a "special" monster showing up whenever it feels like it
Having limited playtime due to family, kids and work, I really need something here to make it a tollerable experience, I do not shy from difficult games, but when every "helping" feature from Dark Souls 1 is removed, I can't see what ways up for that in this game.
As I have said before: It is not the difficulty that makes the prequels one of the best games of the gen, it is the lore, the story, the weapons, the fighting combined with a difficulty which makes you appreciate everything.
As a someone who only plays Dark Souls offline (fuck that invading crap), who never warps and likes to explore while completing the same area dozens of times in a row... this sounds terrible. I'll die a lot... why penalize me even more? Why not penalize those not dying by doing the opposite and forcing good players to deal with permanent bleeding damage to 50% health, eh? I really hope they give us a settings menu.
Maybe I misinterpreted what you mean, but im just clarifying that you cant warp to ANY bonfires from the start of the game. You have to find the new bonfires by foot first, which will then allow you to warp from there on. So people who use the warp a lot, will still have to explore the world to FIND the bonfires first. Im not too worried about the change.
The potential problem for many is that once they've found a bonfire, there will be relatively little incentive to not simply warp to that every area every subsequent time, thereby robbing themselves of the element of discovery that comes through dangerous, off-the-beaten-path exploration. The incentive to warp all the time will be particularly significant in a Souls game because of the dangers of combat and general level traversal.
Simple convenience can be overpowering in games. It's the reason that while some players have enough willpower never to savescum, various games will specifically include an Ironman mode so that players don't have the option to succumb to those temptations.
It also remains to be seen what the warping means as far as level design; if bonfire warping is introduced immediately then, as EviLore pointed out, it's likely that world progression is built with that in mind. After all, the number of players who'll willingly ignore the warping mechanic in favor of physical travel is likely to be dwarfed by those who will use it as much as possible, and the design may well reflect that.
Bonfire warping was introduced at the optimal point in Dark Souls - when you had already gone through most of the game's areas and where it would largely just facilitate farming and general cleaning-up prior to going into the end game. You also got the warping ability in Anor Londo, an area in the game that isn't contiguous with what came before (one of the best aspects of Dark Souls was discovering the cool ways in which the world was interconnected, and warping from the onset could have mucked with that). I'm a bit apprehensive of introducing the mechanic so early, and according to that Reddit info list from a few days back, you can warp to every bonfire in the game.
To be honest, I'm not opposed to respeccing as long as there is some king of consequence to it. Kind of like the soulsucker attack from Old King Allant, but without the possibility of getting the souls back.
The potential problem for many is that once they've found a bonfire, there will be relatively little incentive to not simply warp to that every area every subsequent time, thereby robbing themselves of the element of discovery that comes through dangerous, off-the-beaten-path exploration. The incentive to warp all the time will be particularly significant in a Souls game because of the dangers of combat and general level traversal.
I don't follow. I'm not actually in favor of the ability to warp between all bonfires, but I don't understand how it would rob anyone of any incentives to explore. If someone is looking to explore, then they will use the bonefire as their center, or hub and simply explore all around it in every direction the game allows. It's not like once you've discovered all of the traversal points that warping somehow robs you of finding a new path. Maybe some people simply don't care about anything but point A to point B. Maybe they are missing content, but that's on them not From.
I really hope there are consequences to respeccing. Imagine you encounter a boss that is pretty challenging with melee, but almost trivial with ranged attacks, or vice-versa. Respec as a mage or archer, roflstomp the boss, then respec back as tank/melee to continue. Barf.
Considering how the rating system works, they could keep violence, gore, exposed entrails and foul language, but not show any boobies, and get a T rating. Show a side-nipple? M for Mature.
I really hope there are consequences to respeccing. Imagine you encounter a boss that is pretty challenging with melee, but almost trivial with ranged attacks, or vice-versa. Respec as a mage or archer, roflstomp the boss, then respec back as tank/melee to continue. Barf.
Respeccing in general (I don't agree with any, but once is acceptable) just kills replayability. There has to be more incentives to replay than simply because you like the gameplay. That's the largest factor, but in a game where there are different playstyles depending on your "class" (stats), it's a slightly different experience at least two or three times through when you have to allocate points differently early on. It also alleviates part of the trial and error aspect of the game. Diablo 2 was great because it had no respecs and there were many possible builds before the cookie cutters were solidified later on in the game's life.
Respeccing in general (I don't agree with any, but once is acceptable) just kills replayability. There has to be more incentives to replay than simply because you like the gameplay. That's the largest factor, but in a game where there are different playstyles depending on your "class" (stats), it's a slightly different experience at least two or three times through when you have to allocate points differently early on. It also alleviates part of the trial and error aspect of the game. Diablo 2 was great because it had no respecs and there were many possible builds before the cookie cutters were solidified later on in the game's life.
People figured out pretty quickly how to glitch the system to level up and test out builds in both DeS and Dark. If they removed the respec mechanic in 2, people would just figure out something else.
Respeccing in general (I don't agree with any, but once is acceptable) just kills replayability. There has to be more incentives to replay than simply because you like the gameplay. That's the largest factor, but in a game where there are different playstyles depending on your "class" (stats), it's a slightly different experience at least two or three times through when you have to allocate points differently early on. It also alleviates part of the trial and error aspect of the game. Diablo 2 was great because it had no respecs and there were many possible builds before the cookie cutters were solidified later on in the game's life.
You're no longer invulnerable during special animations like backstabbing or opening doors and chest so it becomes harder to effectively use it as crowd control.
Last I read you're only vulnerable during the start up, but not the rest (with backstabs, don't know about doors, but in DkS1 you could get attacked while going through a fog door).
Last I read you're only vulnerable during the start up, but not the rest (with backstabs, don't know about doors, but in DkS1 you could get attacked while going through a fog door).
I don't follow. I'm not actually in favor of the ability to warp between all bonfires, but I don't understand how it would rob anyone of any incentives to explore. If someone is looking to explore, then they will use the bonefire as their center, or hub and simply explore all around it in every direction the game allows. It's not like once you've discovered all of the traversal points that warping somehow robs you of finding a new path. Maybe some people simply don't care about anything but point A to point B. Maybe they are missing content, but that's on them not From.
It goes back to what I was saying about a game not even giving you the option to succumb to those temptations. In Dark Souls every player was essentially forced to explore, both to unlock shortcuts and to find the next bonfire, and in doing that they discovered other things. There was no option to warp to and fro and skip whatever optional areas and challenges there may be along the way. Given that this is a series where danger lurks around every corner (often literally), the temptation for many to warp all the time will be that much greater, and From has indicated that bonfires are more closely packed this time around.
I wouldn't say either implementation is "fixed" or "broken," as making the player invincible during certain animations can be done deliberately as well.
Dark Souls II definitely makes a move in the direction of making backstabs less powerful, however.
Easiest thing into the world to charge into a host and his phantoms and start slaying them one by one, confident that if you time your stabs and parries correctly that they won't be able to touch you. Invincibility frames work for dodging because they feed into what a dodge is supposed to do - evade damage. But it's never made sense for backstabs and parries.
It goes back to what I was saying about a game not even giving you the option to succumb to those temptations. In Dark Souls every player was essentially forced to explore, both to unlock shortcuts and to find the next bonfire, and in doing that they discovered other things. There was no option to warp to and fro and skip whatever optional areas and challenges there may be along the way. Given that this is a series where danger lurks around every corner (often literally), the temptation for many to warp all the time will be that much greater, and From has indicated that bonfires are more closely packed this time around.
It's not temptation I'm worried about - I can avoid temptation all day. The issue IMO is that the game may be designed around those warp points and offer less incentive to explore. Of course we won't know til the game's out. I trust From and remain optimistic.
It goes back to what I was saying about a game not even giving you the option to succumb to those temptations. In Dark Souls every player was essentially forced to explore, both to unlock shortcuts and to find the next bonfire, and in doing that they discovered other things. There was no option to warp to and fro and skip whatever optional areas and challenges there may be along the way. Given that this is a series where danger lurks around every corner (often literally), the temptation for many to warp all the time will be that much greater, and From has indicated that bonfires are more closely packed this time around.
I read what you said, and I understand the way the first two games had forced exploration. Like I said though, if someone really wants to explore, then they will explore. It's not quite the same as doing save/reload shenannigans on the PC just because it's there.
I don't really see it as that big of a deal for Dark 2, but that's really just based on ignorance, because we don't actually know how it's going to play out. It sounds like catering to people who don't care about challenges (being casual doesn't mean being bad or not wanting a challenge), but then when you factor in the supposed increased difficulty in other areas, it's too hard to say what they were going for just yet.
Once we actually finish the game, we'll be able to see what direction the series is actually headed. I still don't believe exploration is going to be a factor. At least not for the really hardcore fans, and I also think it might actually be an improvement for subsequent replays.
It goes back to what I was saying about a game not even giving you the option to succumb to those temptations. In Dark Souls every player was essentially forced to explore, both to unlock shortcuts and to find the next bonfire, and in doing that they discovered other things. There was no option to warp to and fro and skip whatever optional areas and challenges there may be along the way. Given that this is a series where danger lurks around every corner (often literally), the temptation for many to warp all the time will be that much greater, and From has indicated that bonfires are more closely packed this time around.
Why can't you still do that in Dark Souls 2? All the bonfire warping does it cut back on running around areas you've already beat over and over again. You'll still be able to explore wherever you want. You have to find the bonfire to even warp to it. That, and if anyone feels they missed stuff a little before finding the bonfire, wouldn't it make sense they'd just walk back to look for stuff? Maybe if the player is just rushing through the game they won't (they'd miss out on optional areas anyway), but I know I'll be trying to get all the items and trying to find everything.
It goes back to what I was saying about a game not even giving you the option to succumb to those temptations. In Dark Souls every player was essentially forced to explore, both to unlock shortcuts and to find the next bonfire, and in doing that they discovered other things. There was no option to warp to and fro and skip whatever optional areas and challenges there may be along the way. Given that this is a series where danger lurks around every corner (often literally), the temptation for many to warp all the time will be that much greater, and From has indicated that bonfires are more closely packed this time around.
yep. & there was also no need to periodically 'burn something' in order to do all this without the possibility of an invasion interfering with you while doing so, & possibly sending you back to square one ...
I'm not entirely on board with this: argument; There are cases where a game clearly is designed around a certain mechanic to the point where playing without it is an overly obtuse self-imposed challenge.
How this will apply to Dark Souls II is hard to say. It depends heavily on a lot of little details that we just don't have yet.
It's not temptation I'm worried about - I can avoid temptation all day. The issue IMO is that the game may be designed around those warp points and offer less incentive to explore. Of course we won't know til the game's out. I trust From and remain optimistic.
Sure, but that's what I also noted. The early warping can offer less incentive to explore though both sheer convenience and potentially more damagingly though the way the levels are designed.
The latter would have more of a negative effect on exploration for you and I, but I'm looking at the broader picture.
Why can't you still do that in Dark Souls 2? All the bonfire warping does it cut back on running around areas you've already beat over and over again. You'll still be able to explore wherever you want. You have to find the bonfire to even warp to it. That, and if anyone feels they missed stuff a little before finding the bonfire, wouldn't it make sense they'd just walk back to look for stuff? Maybe if the player is just rushing through the game they won't (they'd miss out on optional areas anyway), but I know I'll be trying to get all the items and trying to find everything.
It remains to be seen whether or not the existence of this fast travel mechanic has bearing on the level design, since they will be expecting people to use it. I'm not sure if there's an example of a game where it hasn't had an effect on progression.
Warping in Dark Souls came closer to the end of the game, and there was a distinct difference in design in post-Anor Londo levels once you got that ability. They expected you to start warping whenever you could.
I really hope there are consequences to respeccing. Imagine you encounter a boss that is pretty challenging with melee, but almost trivial with ranged attacks, or vice-versa. Respec as a mage or archer, roflstomp the boss, then respec back as tank/melee to continue. Barf.
Yep, that would be awful. A big part of Dark Souls for me is replaying with different builds - scenarios that were a cakewalk on your previous playthrough become a nightmare and vice versa.
I think if they're going to include respec, make it available once and once only. Give it a high price in either souls or humanity so people don't make the choice lightly. Once you decide to respec you shouldn't be able to di it again with that character. It should be for people who accidentally invested in a worthless stat, not for people who want to experience every build in one playthrough.
Amazon.co.uk has the PC Black Armour Edition back in stock, I just ordered it for ~$49 USD including shipping. Apparently the new placeholder date they're using is March 14.
Dark Souls is such a treasured franchise that it's rather sad we can't happily accept the sequel into our loving arms. Hopefully Miyazaki's absence is not a detriment to Dark Souls II, but we shall wait and see. Dark Souls is one of those rare games where everything just works together so flawlessly. I truly hope that DaS2 is of the same stature. Yes, the warping and limited respawing is a bit questionable, but hopefully it's all for the best and we are all happy come the 11th.
About the fast travel at bonfires, I read somewhere that there are in game events that are triggered only when you backtrack to certain areas, so if you just warp around everywhere you might actually miss some content. Also, it might make the game even more difficult because you will be missing out on all the souls you would have gotten by traveling through the areas multiple times. So less for leveling, upgrading, new gear, repairs, etc. Same with non-respawing enemies.
Because the entire design of the game will be influenced by this decision. There's no reason to create a big interconnected world with all sorts of clever shortcuts when players can just warp everywhere.
Because the entire design of the game will be influenced by this decision. There's no reason to create a big interconnected world with all sorts of clever shortcuts when players can just warp everywhere.
Because the entire design of the game will be influenced by this decision. There's no reason to create a big interconnected world with all sorts of clever shortcuts when players can just warp everywhere.
...but it was in Dark Souls and no one complained. No one is forcing you to warp, right?
I agree though, that other things like the world may have less effort put into it because of this decision, but if not, what's the problem? From doesn't seem too lazy, I don't think they wouldn't work hard on everything even since this is the case.
You're barking up the wrong tree here. I'm someone who used the Master Key in my very first playthrough and has defended it repeatedly as the best way to go through the game even for newcomers, for the greater freedom of exploration and adventure it offers.
I put a huge emphasis on the exploratory value in these games, Dark Souls even more than Demon's with its open-world nature. Where my personal concern lies is in how fast travel may affect the overall world design; I intend to ignore the warping mechanic unless I'm certain I've been thorough in exploring, but I'm also looking at it as a game that many others will play.
It's cool that they're apparently doing the equivalent of giving everyone a Master Key and opening things up earlier, but it remains to be seen how much of that will be upended by the fast travelling option.
Because the entire design of the game will be influenced by this decision. There's no reason to create a big interconnected world with all sorts of clever shortcuts when players can just warp everywhere.
Because the entire design of the game will be influenced by this decision. There's no reason to create a big interconnected world with all sorts of clever shortcuts when players can just warp everywhere.
Maybe this gives them more reason to hide stuff and have more secrets this time, because a lot of people might just end up warping everywhere instead of searching for every corner or hidden wall where you will find the good stuff,
such as Sticky White Stuff (it's called something else in Dks2 I think)
Personally, I think warping from the start seems like an appropriate design decision when you consider that most of Dark Souls II is non-linear in nature, just like the portion of the latter part of the first game.
I'm sure there will still be interesting shortcuts and connections between areas, but they'll reflect the fact that the game's objectives are laid out differently. More "lateral" connections, fewer secret routes that take you back and forth through zones with an implied order in which they're supposed to be played.
