Which one?
Why'd you post a collage of the same picture over and over?
If only 5% of the posts were about the voice acting, that's be a nice change. People are scared of their vidya being taken away from them, it seems.
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Rumor: Zelda coming to both Wii U + NX, choose between male/female link, VA for NPCs
- Thread starter Nibel
- Start date
Why'd you post a collage of the same picture over and over?
If only 5% of the posts were about the voice acting, that's be a nice change. People are scared of their vidya being taken away from them, it seems.
No, they just chose to stop at gender instead.
But... they didn't? They're giving people an option between a male and female character. Much like Pokemon pre-X/Y they'd be offering two specific designs which again is more inclusive than before. This idea that it's insulting to minorities because they didn't build a full character customizing engine is utter bullshit.
right there with you
It's entertaining.
Its an excellent dodge however. You see this a lot from people attempting to hold back progress. "Well since this change wouldn't be perfect we shouldn't make any changes at all!"
Calling a gender choice between two hylian characters, two pre-made designs insulting to minorities is so monumentally asinine. This isn't a scenario where skin-tone is omitted from a customization engine like FE:A or FE:iF, or theoretically if Dragon Age inexplicably lacked a skin tone option.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
Funnily enough, I rather the Zelda series take the Pokemon approach. As in have a Red/Leaf option rather than Red/Female Red.
astrogamer
Member
Options tend to have effects that limit character-focused narratives. The fact that one will be non-canon in future games is a bit concerning and that is not really getting into the story itself. Ignoring sexuality, there are a lot of stuff that is gendered in our society and that tends to flow into writing. Ignoring the gender differences is certainly possible but it waters down character interactions. When avatars are characterized, if they aren't acting as you would, it tends to irk people a lot as well.
I have no real qualms about a female Link (I prefer the playable character to be any other female but, that's my personal taste of disliking genderswaps)
To be fair, we don't really know how they'll choose to implement this but I'd say at least that the latter would be a step forward worth taking. My personal preference would be for them to be siblings/twins but whatever.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
Oh I would be absolutely fine with that. I just wouldn't like a gender bent Link, which I understand why many people are okay with that as well.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
I'm not sure why people feel the need to completely switch up their placement in the story (e.g Prince Link), to achieve this. Keep the set up the same have Link as a member of the Royal Guard who dissapears for whatever story related reason a quarter or half way through the game. Zelda as the Princess and heir to the throne upon te situation becoming dire goes out adventuring on a quest to save her own kingdom. Have Link serve as the do some useful badass shit as a nod to previous games and keep him in the same sort of capacity Zelda was in previous games (I greatly dislike the damsel in distress trope even when gender swapped for novelty so ideally not that), Zelda finishes her quest defeats the Villain.
Give her access to a sword and shield but with a master sword counterpart being a unique Bow only the the wielder of the triforce of wisdom the hero of whatever can use. Probably give access to more magic abilties to go with the wisdom motif.
Dosn't radically change the set up a lore of Zelda universe nor radically change it purely for the novelty but has a fitting and unique female protagonist. Zelda works perfectly fine as a hero, there's no real reason for link must be the saviour every game when Zelda has access to her own triforce.
LegendofLex
Member
Leaf basically becomes Female Red when you choose her, though.
Then Red becomes Male Leaf.
I think a game like Mother/Earthbound with a strong narrative could be hamstrung by a gender switch.
Legend of Zelda though? If you had a gender switch in Zelda game on the NES or even a standalone Zelda unconnected directly to another game?
You wouldn't even see the difference.
Heck considering how inconsistent the games are about the links between the games (locales, item powers, characters, etc...) it's clear that it's more Legend than anything.
As such both can be canon in the timeline since the Legend wouldn't mention the gender to begin with, it would be as unimportant as the shield you finish the game in pretty much any Zelda game.
I mean most Zelda games are as unconnected as the Souls games.
That you choose a male or female change nothing to the lore of the games.
Yeah, that's exactly what this is. Good job. Holding back progress by expecting more that just including other half of the status quo.
I'm out of here.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
I get that functionally, they are not different. But Red still isn't Leaf or vice-versa.
……forgetit
Member
I mean as bullshit as argueing for a gender choice IMO, really their's no reason not to have both if the argument is for inclusiveness.
I think the only reason we're not talking about character creation tool is because the leak doesn't talk about it.
We only know about the gender switch, if they do more I don't think people being ok with the gender switch would go up in arm.
……forgetit
Member
Eh, I've heard a few who were against it in other thread, but eh, we'll see.
Wheeljack539
Gold Member
Oh, I feel like I'm the only one who doesn't want either a genderswap and voice acting and have mentioned both in previous posts. However its the voice acting that will likely break this for me if implimented.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
I've actually seen instances in this thread where someone who wanted the gender switch was opposed to a character creation tool. At least if it gave "too much freedom".
Why would you not want voice acting?
The conversation hasn't focused on adding things like skin tones and hair colours as the entire rumour in the first place has been about two character choices, one male and one female for more inclusiveness versus a full character creation engine for everyone.
LegendofLex
Member
Based on some of the stuff going on in Zelda, like equipping different kinds of clothing, weapons, etc., I don't see how a female character who's functionally identical to Link and who you probably even wind up naming just like Link won't just be a female Link in practice. I don't see what benefit you get out of creating a separate character who winds up even wearing more or less the same clothes.
Not to mention that what do you name Link when he becomes an NPC on the side alongside the female PC?
We'll see indeed.
If there is, I'll argue that they would be having a position that is kinda shaky.
If I'm honest I want a full character customization that goes beyond just skin tones into hyrule race territory and voice acting only in Hylian with its own grammar and vocabulary.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
It worked fine for Pokemon. The benefit is that people who don't want Link to change genders will be happy, and people who want to play as a female counterpart will be happy. I understand if you think it's an arbitrary distinction. What's the difference, right? Yet the fact that not everyone would be okay with this (it absolutely has to be female Link) proves that it's an important distinction.
……forgetit
Member
So if it was a full character creator with hair, skin tones and facial features would you be against it?
Did I say that? No? Okay then. What I did say is that calling a gender toggle insulting to minorities to be bullshit. Adding a gender option is more inclusive- full stop. The idea it's insulting that the series can introduce a choice between make and female characters but not a full customization engine (yet?) is insane.
After rewatching the Ms. Male Character episode of Tropes vs Women, I do wonder what people think are the odds that a Female Link won't fall into the trap of a Ms. Male character, that is possibly seen simply for her gender and or is deliberately marketed and designed to reflect that difference between her and Male Link. As well as the likelihood that Female Link will always been seen as derivative to the default, Male, Link and not an equal. Or does this not matter to you in any event as you see the positive aspects of her existence to trump those possible issues?
I personally don't have a lot of faith in Nintendo to both design, present and market a Female Link as a true equal, or even a new female character like Linkle, in a way that doesn't feel and appear like a female derivative of Link, or as a character that doesn't hyper focus on her femininity in order to differentiate her from Link. I have even less faith in the fanbase to treat them similarly and not simply view Female Link as a deviation from the norm, regardless of how Nintendo handles her depiction. Though that point probably shouldn't matter as there's always people like that.
That feeling is a small part of why I find Zelda to be a much more compelling heroin than FemLink or some new Female Hero/Linkle type character. Her long history and concrete establishment as a character all her own intrinsically differentiates her from Link in ways that a Female Link likely couldn't and a new character would probably struggle at. Outside of her being relegated all too often as a damsel in distress her portrayal in the series and as a character has generally been good. Displaying bravery and courage all her own, as well other unique qualities and abilities throughout many of her depictions in the series. Obviously certain aspects of her presentation remain true for Zelda as well. Nintendo could totally screw things up for her as well and design and present her in much more gendered ways than they previously had, but they've done a fairly good job with her in recent titles and for the most part throughout the series, again outside of the whole damsel trope.
I agree with the sentiment of not radically changing their characters or genders. Though I would like to see at least for Zelda's first appearance as the heroin a setup where Link get's captured or turned to stone. Simply as a very deliberate nod to the series' history of doing that to Zelda. After that there are plenty of good scenarios they can use in the future as to why Zelda is the hero or why both Link and Zelda are the heroes together.
I personally don't have a lot of faith in Nintendo to both design, present and market a Female Link as a true equal, or even a new female character like Linkle, in a way that doesn't feel and appear like a female derivative of Link, or as a character that doesn't hyper focus on her femininity in order to differentiate her from Link. I have even less faith in the fanbase to treat them similarly and not simply view Female Link as a deviation from the norm, regardless of how Nintendo handles her depiction. Though that point probably shouldn't matter as there's always people like that.
That feeling is a small part of why I find Zelda to be a much more compelling heroin than FemLink or some new Female Hero/Linkle type character. Her long history and concrete establishment as a character all her own intrinsically differentiates her from Link in ways that a Female Link likely couldn't and a new character would probably struggle at. Outside of her being relegated all too often as a damsel in distress her portrayal in the series and as a character has generally been good. Displaying bravery and courage all her own, as well other unique qualities and abilities throughout many of her depictions in the series. Obviously certain aspects of her presentation remain true for Zelda as well. Nintendo could totally screw things up for her as well and design and present her in much more gendered ways than they previously had, but they've done a fairly good job with her in recent titles and for the most part throughout the series, again outside of the whole damsel trope.
I agree with the sentiment of not radically changing their characters or genders. Though I would like to see at least for Zelda's first appearance as the heroin a setup where Link get's captured or turned to stone. Simply as a very deliberate nod to the series' history of doing that to Zelda. After that there are plenty of good scenarios they can use in the future as to why Zelda is the hero or why both Link and Zelda are the heroes together.
hemo memo
Gold Member
Voice acting for everyone except Link is a good start (although I wanted him to be included) this way no one would complain about the voice acting ruining the charcater etc..
RellyRell28
Banned
Then bye. You won't be missed
Bah, Zelda is pretty meant to be a RPG.
They can go as far as they want as long as they don't add the Exp bars it should be ok.
LegendofLex
Member
This leaves a rather large perception gap for that character, however, since the protagonist of The Legend of Zelda series is widely regarded to be Link.
I think the risk that an alternate female character will basically have no chance whatsoever at having anything approaching Link-like status if the option to choose a male Link still exists is much higher.
Using a female Link would be to say "girls are just as much the hero as the boys" since they're literally playing as the same character that the boys are, just that that character can be a girl if they want.
I think people might wonder why Link is also a girl now (which is what you'd expect, given that he's a 30-year-old character), but I think it won't take long for it to simply be understood that Link transcends gender.
Besides, isn't the issue with the Ms. Male characters that they take male characters and then slap on stereotypical feminine markers (like Ms. Pac-Man's bow, Nana's pink parka, lipstick/makeup/lashes, etc.)? A female Link could look almost totally identical to the male one apart from voice, with the ability to modify your character's appearance being totally optional.
……forgetit
Member
Somehow I misunderstood your post? But I can definitely see why some would be annoyed by it. Including a gender toggle isn't insulting to minorities, but being agianst one certainly is. Though in my opinion if we take the one step why not go all the way?
I never said they shouldn't go all the way. The only thing I've argued is that having a gender choice but not a full customization engine isn't insulting because frankly that line of thinking is idiotic. Having a full customization engine is fine if they want to add one.
……forgetit
Member
I mean if someone feels consult d isn't it by definition insulting though? Not saying I'm annoyed at the idea but I understand the mindset. Pokémon is a good example, they finally added skin tone options and then immediately took them away. Now that is massively insulting.
SenorArdilla
Member
I literally made that example myself as a legitimate reason to call a lack of character customization engine insulting. That. Exact. Example. They took away options that they themselves introduced. Zelda wouldn't be doing that though, they'd be giving you options you didn't have before for a male or female.
astrogamer
Member
Zelda on the NES has like no characters and most of the dialogue is just hints. A gender swap wouldn't change anything except that Zelda II's link would have to be female too.
Link in Skyward Sword on the other would change a lot if you change the genders unless you are going with the theme that gender is a stupid concept. Many core relations would have to change. Assuming Zelda U is trying to improve on that concept, the gender option would only hinder what they could do.
And even then, there is nothing narratively wrong with having a female Link by itself, but having the option introduces the conundrums especially if there is a direct sequel. I'm not against inclusivity, but options don't agree with a strong narrative focused on the player
Silent_Ocarina
Member
Oh, well, I understand why someone would be opposed to a character creation tool but want a female Link. They already have in their mind an idea of who Link is. It just so happens that their interpretation does not depend on gender. However, when you go further to a character creation tool, their idea is threatened, which is why they oppose it. I just think it's hypocritical when those same people berate those whose idea of Link includes the idea that he is always male.
I'm afraid I don't quite follow. A female character who has the hero's spirit would be just as much a hero as any Link was.
LegendofLex
Member
I'm talking from an out-of-universe perspective.
I don't see any new character (female or otherwise) ever usurping Link as "the protagonist of The Legend of Zelda series," but I could see it being accepted that Link doesn't necessarily have a fixed gender.
Interesting and fair points. But you don't think that the gender option devalues, or maybe more accurately hinders your last point a bit? Wouldn't making some games Female Link only help to further that idea that girls can be the hero, where an option could mean that many, possibly most fans, will ignore it and always view it as a deviation? It's great that girls and some boys will choose to play a female Link but wouldn't the impact be greater if everyone did?
BioWare has always had male and female options in all their games, most fully customizable, and have a very sizable female following compared to most devs, even compared to Nintendo I think last I checked(though good statistics aren't really out there). Yet even in ME, and only to a slightly lesser extent in Dragon Age, the female player character was significantly chosen less. Over 4:1 in ME3 and more than 2:1 for DAI, both the third game in major series that always had gender options.
No argument there.
I don't know I feel like Zelda is at its best when it isn't hamstrung by a strong narrative to begin with, it isn't Final Fantasy or Xenoblade the meat of the game isn't the storyline.
Zelda U is looking like it's going full on exploration and adventure. If the narrative is minimal and they reward the exploration better than XenoWii and XenoX does it's going to be the best Zelda yet.
And seriously the story in SS isn't bad and it isn't great either. Changing the story to make it gender neutral would have a neutral impact on the game, I mean it doesn't live and die by the story.
I mean if you view Zelda as mostly dungeon + overworld with battle and puzzles, it can have no story beyond "go save hyrule" and there's no reason to be against character customization or gender switch.
Silent_Ocarina
Member
If the option is carried over to future Zelda games, I can absolutely see this new female becoming a popular character. Instead of it being accepted that Link can be a boy or girl, perhaps it would be accepted that the hero can be either Link or _____ (whatever a hypothetical character's name can be).
……forgetit
Member
Fair enough, I just got here and haven't gone too far back. That said you can't just tell people "stop being insulted, you're wrong" isn't really fair. I mean some here would be annoyed at Nintendo not adding a gender option. Some were against the other option being Zelda because it HAS to be a female Link. It's as valid a complaint as a lot of the others here.
LegendofLex
Member
I wouldn't be opposed to a game that's female Link only personally, but I don't necessarily think it's a good idea - that it achieves a meaningful objective for Nintendo. I think the real issue is that Nintendo didn't embrace the gender select option sooner given their expressed vision for the character, the name selection tool, etc. It'd be kind of a lame apology if they just made some games with "the female Link" and thought that was enough.
This is just a hunch, but I imagine that both Nintendo and The Legend of Zelda are positioned to appeal more equitably to both boys and girls.
What you're saying is definitely possible, it's just my suspicion that a female character will be a more meaningful/impactful gesture if that character is actually Link rather than presented as being equal to Link. Does that make sense? You don't have to agree with me, I just wanna know if my intentions/mindset on this is clear.
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