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Trump: Sweden has huge immigration problems. Sweden: No we don't, USA pls

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M

Majine

Banned
fanboi said:
And he is a skilled politician... which is more dangerous of course. But in the same time he is less hateful the Trump and Co
Click to expand...

He's more coherent than Trump, but compared to the other politicians, he still sounds like a tiny angry man with a foot in his mouth.
 
S

SiegfriedFM

Member
berzeli said:
I think lazygecko might have worded it poorly, the minister for home affairs stated that the riots may be caused by criminal elements feeling increased pressure from the heightened police presence in Rinkeby. The supposed ignition of the riots last night was the police making an arrest, so I think that might be the what was meant.

Other than that his post is pretty spot on, this wasn't a major incident. But there was an incident.
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There was an incident. But there hadn't been one when Trump was talking out of his ass, which was the point of this thread. And either way, it wasn't a freaking terrorist attack.
 
K

Keasar

Member
berzeli said:
I think lazygecko might have worded it poorly, the minister for home affairs stated that the riots may be caused by criminal elements feeling increased pressure from the heightened police presence in Rinkeby. The supposed ignition of the riots last night was the police making an arrest, so I think that might be the what was meant.

Other than that his post is pretty spot on, this wasn't a major incident. But there was an incident.
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Yup, it's been confirmed that the police was arresting a wanted man and it escalated into a small riot involving about 40-50 people.

Luckily, nobody got killed or seriously injured. The damages seem to be relatively minor compared to earlier experiences.
 
G

Gutek

Member
koziakauzu said:
Where are yours?

A country official claiming "we have no problem" is not a "fact". Trump is making it sound worst, other party make it sounds like there is not a single issue and everyone is happy. There is probably something in the middle beyond the edgy Trump bashing.

This is a forum where people express their opinions and thoughts. No one here has any "facts" for professional fact checkers like you to validate, except what they see, hear from family/friends, news and "fake news" (both are pretty fake anyway).



Yeah, I forgot to put a bunch of "literally" to make my sentences more powerful and true.
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WORSE!!!!!!!!!
 
sazzy

sazzy

Member
verbatimo said:
Found these sources

SVT Nyheter
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/upplopp-i-rinkeby-polisen-skot-varningsskott

Aftonbladet
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/Lz524/polis-avlossade-varningsskott-mot-stenkastare-i-rinkeby

The rioting began when police arrested the wanted person at the Rinkeby metro station. Police were forced to fire warning shots. One police officer is injured from stoning.
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neoanarch said:
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1345969&page=100000


Might want to read the very last post in this locked thread.
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http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/21/overnight-riots-in-predominately-immigrant-stockholm-suburb.html

SuzLaXE.png
 
S

Samurai G0SU

Member
GK86 said:
Trump heard it from a very, reliable source.

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump

My statement as to what's happening in Sweden was in reference to a story that was broadcast on @FoxNews concerning immigrants & Sweden.
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biggest EL OH EL ever .. wow
 
Moff

Moff

Member
Keasar said:
No, the numbers are definitely not wrong, but when he says he "reads statistics" it means he just "looks at the numbers and regurgitates them into a camera." He doesn't actually read and evaluate them.

What's happened in Sweden is that we have a much lower bar in the country of what constitutes rape and sexual assault. While in many countries rape might be only when there is penetration, rape here can mean touching of the genitals of a non-consenting person. We take this very seriously. Hopefully just that will make you realize that the number of reported incidents from that alone will make the numbers soar, and you would be right.

We also have a policy in Sweden to actively encourage victims of rape and sexual assault to come forward and report when it happens. They are heavily protected by law which lowers their fears of repercussions when reporting it.

This also increases further the number of reports. Think of it as sort of the same situation with what happened with autism, the definition of what autism is got broader over time, and with a broader definition you get more reported cases of autism, not an actual increase of actual autism as compared to before.

So, the problem is that when you compare statistics between countries like this, you compare number of reported cases to each of their governments, cases that have different standards and metrics in different countries. It is not possible to really do the comparison by just saying "The numbers here are way higher" unless you try to do a complete in-depth review of each country based on the same criteria.
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I understand that and I already knew that Sweden has a lower bar than other countries when it comes to sexual assault.

However, that is not what the video and statistics were pointing out.
What they were pointing out is that the attacks have increased since immigration has increased. He also quoted the police saying that most (I think 80%) of the attacks were done by immigrants.

Is that true or wrong? Or has the bar been lowered at the same time? Is there a correlation to immigration or not?
 
K

Keasar

Member
Moff said:
I understand that and I already knew that Sweden has a lower bar than other countries when it comes to sexual assault.

However, that is not what the video and statistics were pointing out.
What they were pointing out is that the attacks have increased since immigration has increased. He also quoted the police saying that most (I think 80%) of the attacks were done by immigrants.

Is that true or wrong? Or has the bar been lowered at the same time? Is there a correlation to immigration or not?
Click to expand...

I cannot say, I have to question what his sources are, apart from a police, since BRÅ still doesn't post statistics that show the rate of crime and where the criminal are from. The last time that happened was in 2005, but there I don't think the results where that "these people were convicted of the crimes" but rather "these people were suspected of the crimes". Sweden since stopped gathering that data. Many consider it counter-productive to provide where a person comes from, like for example, if they did another study it would take much attention from the statistics BRÅ wants us to see which is that crime is going down in Sweden over the years, we live safer than ever. On the other hand, there are arguments that because we do not study these statistics, people now somehow got this picture that Swedes do not commit crime, only immigrants do.

It is a difficult situation what to do.
 
N

Nabbis

Member
Keasar said:
I cannot say, I have to question what his sources are, apart from a police, since BRÅ still doesn't post statistics that show the rate of crime and where the criminal are from. The last time that happened was in 2005, but there I don't think the results where that "these people were convicted of the crimes" but rather "these people were suspected of the crimes". Sweden since stopped gathering that data. Many consider it counter-productive to provide where a person comes from, like for example, if they did another study it would take much attention from the statistics BRÅ wants us to see which is that crime is going down in Sweden over the years, we live safer than ever. On the other hand, there are arguments that because we do not study these statistics, people now somehow got this picture that Swedes do not commit crime, only immigrants do.

It is a difficult situation what to do.
Click to expand...

Sure is a nice way of governance, hide away all the relevant data and do things based on feelings.
 
D

Darth Ghandi

Banned
Vollume said:
Yes really, when aberrant shit like this happens:



http://www.thelocal.se/20161231/swedish-judge-refuses-to-deport-teens-who-gang-raped-child

Gang-rapes are unheard of in my country, this to me is shocking and won't accept people trying to say that this is normal in a western country because it is not.
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It is sad, but sending people to their death isn't something we should be doing imo.
Even criminals have human rights.

Also the notion that gang-rapes are something non western is false.
4 men have been sentenced.
http://www.informationskriget.se/2016/02/22/svenskar-domda-for-gruppvaldtakt/
 
J

j-wood

Member
So what are the chances Trump heard about this in an intelligence briefing, but was too busy tweeting or not paying attention, so he thought it happened already and that's why he said it.
 
D

DasPenguin

Member
Vollume said:
http://www.thelocal.se/20170221/swedish-press-photographer-assaulted-in-rinkeby-riots







https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...f735ee31334_story.html?utm_term=.5bd71dda3466


All of this because the police went in to arrest someone, Sweden is a mess.
Click to expand...

Sweden is a mess? Yeah, maybe some neighborhoods are a mess, but they are few and very far between. And if you were asked to visit that neighborhood or any violent ghetto in America, I'll go to Sweden in a heartbeat. It's a super safe country compared to USA or some other countries in the world.

I guess my country (Finland) is a bit safer than Sweden, but the safest country (by far) that I've lived in was Germany. And contrary to what the Americans believe, Germany has been full of immigrants for decades now.
 
Moff

Moff

Member
Keasar said:
I cannot say, I have to question what his sources are, apart from a police, since BRÅ still doesn't post statistics that show the rate of crime and where the criminal are from. The last time that happened was in 2005, but there I don't think the results where that "these people were convicted of the crimes" but rather "these people were suspected of the crimes". Sweden since stopped gathering that data. Many consider it counter-productive to provide where a person comes from, like for example, if they did another study it would take much attention from the statistics BRÅ wants us to see which is that crime is going down in Sweden over the years, we live safer than ever. On the other hand, there are arguments that because we do not study these statistics, people now somehow got this picture that Swedes do not commit crime, only immigrants do.

It is a difficult situation what to do.
Click to expand...

But he does quote and show articles/statistics in the video.
are they old? unreliable? they are in Swedish so I can only depend on what he says about them. is he right or not?
 
F

frontovik

Banned
Sweden is in much a better shape than the US .. so Trump should shut his fat mouth instead of making stupid falsifications.
 
A

antonz

Member
Lol at the piling on Sweden. If Sweden is a "mess" what the fuck do you call America? What do you call Russia? A Post Apocalyptic shit hole?
 
S

Saint Gregory

Member
antonz said:
Lol at the piling on Sweden. If Sweden is a "mess" what the fuck do you call America? What do you call Russia? A Post Apocalyptic shit hole?
Click to expand...
Sweden is only a mess now because it's easier to slander an entire country than admit that Trump is an ignoramus (for a lot of people).
 
5

54-46!

Member
Moff said:
But he does quote and show articles/statistics in the video.
are they old? unreliable? they are in Swedish so I can only depend on what he says about them. is he right or not?
Click to expand...

The sources are from Aftonbladet (biggest tabloid), SVT (BBC equivalent), some other newspapers and various government agencies. Majority of them are reputable.

Haven't watched the video, just skimmed through the cited sources.
 
eot

eot

Banned
pringles said:
Sweden is not a mess. Some neighbourhoods are. Sweden is overall extremely safe and things like that incident would barely be newsworthy in a lot of other countries.
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I wouldn't say a mess, but car fires are an increasing problem IMO. (I haven't looked at statistics for it, however that is my perception).
 
K

Keasar

Member
Moff said:
But he does quote and show articles/statistics in the video.
are they old? unreliable? they are in Swedish so I can only depend on what he says about them. is he right or not?
Click to expand...

No, but like I said, we don't have solid proof of correlation between immigration and the rise of crime. We do not know, BRÅ is basically our best source of this data and they haven't done any such research in the last 12 years.
 
G

Groof

Junior Member
Sweden has always had problems with racism and the big uprising and fear mongering of neo-nazism and far right movements isn't exactly helping. But to say Sweden is a mess is just so far off the mark and just playing into what Trump & looney toons want to achieve.

Also lol at calling Aftonbladet reputable
 
T

tuxfool

Banned
LuigiL said:
I am not a relativist and I never said I was. I could care less if you think my opinion is garbage, your opinion of me is ignorant. You should chill out cause your attitude is not helping and your attempt to label me is immature.

I also never said opinions are equal, I said that the video of the guy from Sweden and Onlinehero's opinions should not be dismissed. Both viewpoints should have a chance to be shared and discussed here.

With the recent riot yesterday in Sweden I feel like this issue needs to be investigated even more thoroughly and it seems like the immigration policy is in need of fixing if this is the result of it.
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Just asking questions here...

LuigiL said:
The recent riot is crazy. I think there is a problem going on in Sweden and hopefully things get better soon.
Click to expand...
I'd say these kinds of reactions show an absence of thinking. Your personal perceptions and biases are nakedly transparent.
 
T

TyrantGuardian

Member
lol @ "Sweden is a mess". Yeah, I'm so scared of this mess I was in Rinkeby a few weeks ago. God damn it was intense! A grand total of nothing happened and people were really friendly. Derp.
 
T

TyrantGuardian

Member
LuigiL said:
What are you talking about? I'm being completely open and honest. I think the current opinions in this thread should be discussed not dismissed. My opinion on this issue specifically, is that there's a problem going on in Sweden and I hope for things to recover. From what I can gather there are complex problems with the immigration policy and no simple solution.

You're not helping by focusing on what I've said and trying to allude that I am hiding something here.
Click to expand...

What's the point of having opinions when they aren't based on any actual facts at all? If you looked up the context of the constantly misrepresented facts the alt-reich keeps spewing about Sweden you'd quickly see that the bigger picture isn't even in the same ballpark as they make it out to be.

I've kept seeing "the rape capital of Europe" (whatever the fuck that means) thrown around constantly, when even a cursory glance at what's actually going on is that the law rightly changed to include a way broader spectrum of sexual harrassment under legal rape. There has also been a huge social push to empower women to have the courage to report sexual harrassment to the authorities. Yet here we are, with every single neo-nazi idiot out there regurgitating these statistics and somehow magically linking it to the recent entry of refugees.

Obviously this is not what you were saying in this thread, and I don't mean to automatically dismiss any discussion about the small-scale riot that occured, but I do ask you to please think twice about what you're hearing since it is being incredibly mis-reported through a lens of immense hatred toward people of African and Middle-Eastern origin in the western world.
 
P

Playmaster

Banned
LuigiL said:
What are you talking about? I'm being completely open and honest. I think the current opinions in this thread should be discussed not dismissed. My opinion on this issue specifically, is that there's a problem going on in Sweden and I hope for things to recover. From what I can gather there are complex problems with the immigration policy and no simple solution.

You're not helping by focusing on what I've said and trying to allude that I am hiding something here.
Click to expand...
Well if there are problems you can start the solution with one of the two:
1) The Politicians are just incompetent.
2) They are not so they promote/allow lawlessness among immigrants for some reason.
 
H

H.Cornerstone

Member
TyrantGuardian said:
What's the point of having opinions when they aren't based on any actual facts at all? If you looked up the context of the constantly misrepresented facts the alt-reich keeps spewing about Sweden you'd quickly see that the bigger picture isn't even in the same ballpark as they make it out to be.

I've kept seeing "the rape capital of Europe" (whatever the fuck that means) thrown around constantly, when even a cursory glance at what's actually going on is that the law rightly changed to include a way broader spectrum of sexual harrassment under legal rape. There has also been a huge social push to empower women to have the courage to report sexual harrassment to the authorities. Yet here we are, with every single neo-nazi idiot out there regurgitating these statistics and somehow magically linking it to the recent entry of refugees.

Obviously this is not what you were saying in this thread, and I don't mean to automatically dismiss any discussion about the small-scale riot that occured, but I do ask you to please think twice about what you're hearing since it is being incredibly mis-reported through a lens of immense hatred toward people of African and Middle-Eastern origin in the western world.
Click to expand...

So basically the TLDR is: "Correlation does not equal Causation."
 
K

Keasar

Member
The photographer who was with Ami Horowitz have confirmed that the interview footage with the two police was edited.

The Swedish cinematographer Emil Marczak, who filmed the interview, now confirms the policemen’s story. Marczak tells DN that Horowitz ”time and again tried to get the policemen to agree with him”.

”I would never have participated if I had known how unethically and frivolously the material would be edited. To double check that my memory is correct I have gone through the raw material and it confirms the policemen’s view of the course of events”, Emil Marczak says.
Click to expand...

Also, Ami Horowitz have answered back regarding the accusations of editing the footage to present a false picture.

They say that you have edited the answers.

”Of course they can’t come with a concrete example of that. I never did that. I’m almost sure that I never used the word immigrant or immigration when I asked them questions. I will take a look again,” says Ami Horowitz.

Are the policemen completely wrong?

”They are completely wrong about them answering questions I didn’t ask. They are 100 per cent wrong. And that is all on the videotape,” says Ami Horowitz.
Click to expand...

Would you be willing to show us the raw material to prove that your information is correct?

”A filmmaker doesn’t do that. No filmmaker is asked to show their material, Michael Moore is never asked to show his material. I am not trying to hide anything. It’s just not what filmmakers do.”

”I have been making movies and videos for a long time, both high-profile and controversial ones. I have not been accused of this before, and I am proud of that record. It is important. Credibility is vital to me.”
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giphy.gif

Maybe deserves a new thread? I'm not sure honestly, but still, what the fuck?
 
C

CecilRousso

Member
Keasar said:
Maybe deserves a new thread? I'm not sure honestly, but still, what the fuck?
Click to expand...

I think it's tread worthy.

We have had a lot of Trump threads, and mods have been locking a lot of unneccessary ones, but now three people related to the report have come out speaking against it, in a way that makes it really match the definition of fake news. And considering the debate Trump have caused by his rash endorsement of it, it's worth highligting.
 
M

Majine

Banned
"I care 100% about breing credible, but I don't want to prove my credibility because we usually don't do that".

Ok buddy...
 
S

SiegfriedFM

Member
Quite related:

http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/okand-bildt-pa-fox-news/ (in Swedish)

Fox News apparently had some random guy called Nils Bildt "confirming" Trump's views. Now, this is very notable for several reasons.

1) This guy has the same last name as Carl Bildt, our former PM and secretary of state who recently bashed Trump with the "what is he smoking" tweet. It's obvious that they're trying to obscure that fact to confuse people. "I heard Bildt didn't like Trump." "No, you heard wrong, I saw him on Fox."

2) Whoever this guy is, he has nothing to do with foreign relations. "Swedish defense and national security advisor" is a blatant lie. Our departments have nothing to do with the guy.

3) From what DN tracked down, he changed his name to Bildt 14 years ago and started a bunch of companies in the US, probably to ride on the name recognition. Sounds to me like a generic con artist.

This is the very definition of fake news. This is a blatant lie to cover the blatant lies of the president.
 
C

chrislowe

Member
TyrantGuardian said:
lol @ "Sweden is a mess". Yeah, I'm so scared of this mess I was in Rinkeby a few weeks ago. God damn it was intense! A grand total of nothing happened and people were really friendly. Derp.
Click to expand...

Yes, just cause you one day was there and nothing happened means that Rinkeby is a great place to be.

These people living there 24/7 is trying to give out fakenews then?

http://www.dn.se/sthlm/rinkeby-kraver-stoppa-valdet/

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/s...staurangagaren-sluta-forstor-och-visa-respekt

So you should call this guy and tell him that he must be wrong cause you were there and nothing happened.

Or this reporter who was there and got injured and beaten up

http://www.dn.se/sthlm/dn-fotograf-misshandlad-i-rinkeby/

This reporter is probably not telling the whole story, cause nothing should happen in Rinkeby, ive read that on Neogaf :p

Or that many murders are commited in the area of Rinkeby according to Police

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/manga-mord-i-jarva

The people having buisness closing their buisness in protest of the violence

http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/husby-centrum-stangs-i-protest-mot-valdsvag/

etc.
 
D

Djungelfrukt

Member
Wow, FOX got some random swede, who they called a swedish defense and national sexurity expert, on bill o'reilly to agree with trump according to swedish media! was this known?

he was not an expert, noone has heard about him. when media contacted him he said he didn't know about that title, he chose to refer to himself as an independent analyst.
 
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