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Trump: Sweden has huge immigration problems. Sweden: No we don't, USA pls

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Zen Aku

Member
I'm not sure if this has been posted but apparently the Fox News segment that Trump saw came from a documentary by Ami Horowitz. Horowitz is a right-wing filmmaker who has apparently edited his interview with several Swedish police officers to try and paint a narrative that Sweden 'rape problem' is because of immigrants.

The two police officers have since spoken up about how their answers were edited and taken out of context. That they do not approve of this kind of journalism.

You can read more about this in the link here.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
I'm not sure if this has been posted but apparently the Fox News segment that Trump saw came from a documentary by Ami Horowitz. Horowitz is a right-wing filmmaker who has apparently edited his interview with several Swedish police officers to try and paint a narrative that Sweden 'rape problem' is because of immigrants.

The two police officers have since spoken up about how their answers were edited and taken out of context. That they do not approve of this kind of journalism.

You can read more about this in the link here.

Trumps sources is literally fake news
 
You can see the rest of the thread for more indepth info, but the short story is:

No, Sweden did not suffer a terror attack from the muslims.

No, rape is not at an all time high, at least what we know of so far, we need another year or two to have reliable statistics on the matter.

No, gun violence is not up at insane levels, gun violence is right now at a low like in 2005. Compared however to 2014, it did rise a little in 2015.

No, there are no Sharia law controlled "no go"-zones where police have lost control. The police released a list in 2015 of areas with elevated crime, most likely of youth gangs. Police still actively patrol these areas. But a reporter decided to call them "No Go" zones even though that was never mentioned and shitstorm enseud.

Trump is a twat, most Swedes think so I am sure.

Thank you! I'll read more into it. again as I said I only care about the opinion of Swedish people in this subject.
 

Elchele

Member
Trump heard it from a very, reliable source.

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump

My statement as to what's happening in Sweden was in reference to a story that was broadcast on @FoxNews concerning immigrants & Sweden.

this is amazing
 

pringles

Member
From 9/5-16 (Inizio):

Wzi9F2o.png


60% think Sweden should accept fewer refugees, 18% the same, 13% more. 9% don't know.

KZZIpp3.png


46% have very low confidence in our governments ability to handle the situation, 19% fairly low, 15% neither low nor high, 15% fairly high, and the small red sliver is very high.

It's not "everyone bigly", but please make sure that you know what you're talking about if you want to have any credibility in the discussion.
Should be mentioned that this is from a survey done by about 1,200 people and results vary greatly with SD voters being close to 100% in the "accept less refugees" and "very low confidence in government" categories. It's also a web-based survey by Inizio who have been under critique for the way they do their surveys.

Sifo who is more reliable had this result in October:

sifo.jpg

source: https://www.svd.se/sifo-over-fyra-av-tio-vill-se-skarpta-flyktinglagar

44% wanting to accept less refugees, 56% want to accept the same/more or are undecided. And again most of the ones wanting to see less immigration/refugees can be found in the SD camp.
 

20cent

Banned
where are your facts? receipts? anything? I'm guessing nothing substantiative.

Where are yours?

A country official claiming "we have no problem" is not a "fact". Trump is making it sound worst, other party make it sounds like there is not a single issue and everyone is happy. There is probably something in the middle beyond the edgy Trump bashing.

This is a forum where people express their opinions and thoughts. No one here has any "facts" for professional fact checkers like you to validate, except what they see, hear from family/friends, news and "fake news" (both are pretty fake anyway).



Yeah, I forgot to put a bunch of "literally" to make my sentences more powerful and true.
 

Mosse

Neo Member
Thank you! I'll read more into it. again as I said I only care about the opinion of Swedish people in this subject.

As a Swede I can say that we don't like foreign leaders making up shit about us based on watching an interview on Fox about a highly skewed documentary. And then doubling down when the lies is pointed out to him.

Even if our immigrations policies could be better, they are no where near as bad as trump and his right wing friends are trying to make them out to be.
 

KRod-57

Banned

It's one thing if you want to defend the original report done by Fox, because from what I've gathered they weren't at all off base when describing the current state of Sweden over recent years. However, the president was way off base.. he was attempting to name a recent attack in Sweden to make his point... and the thing is, this is the third time this administration has fabricated a story of an Islamic terrorist attack within just 1 month of being in office.

The fellow in the video makes an interesting point about how Sweden was already experiencing a housing shortage before they took in such a large influx of migrants. That should be included in the discussion, but we mustn't neglect addressing this administration's disconnect from the truth. When this president speaks, he doesn't care whether or not what he is saying is true, all he cares about is whether it sounds good to him in the moment.
 

Buzzman

Banned
People like to complain that Sweden is so full, and yet we are suffering acute shortages in a lot of professions.

We need more teachers,
We need more nurses and social workers,
We need more mechanics and contruction workers
We need more painters, concrete workers, plumbers, tilers, bricklayers, carpenters, electricians, tool makers, bakers, cooks and even goddamn telephone salesmen.

And of course we've got a serious housing shortage. Do you know how you can solve that problem? By building more fucking houses.

Now we've been handed a hundred thousand people and we have most of them sitting around doing nothing.
If we decided to actually invest in these people we could solve so many problems but it's no longer "politically correct" to spend money on them. It's apparently better to leave them in their homes so they cost even more in the long run, but atleast you're not spending "muh taxes" on those refugees.

Yes. Swedish media is far left which is a problem
Ah yes, the media is the problem of course. Haven't heard that one before.
 

Got

Banned
Where are yours?

A country official claiming "we have no problem" is not a "fact". Trump is making it sound worst, other party make it sounds like there is not a single issue and everyone is happy. There is probably something in the middle beyond the edgy Trump bashing.

This is a forum where people express their opinions and thoughts. No one here has any "facts" for professional fact checkers like you to validate, except what they see, hear from family/friends, news and "fake news" (both are pretty fake anyway).



Yeah, I forgot to put a bunch of "literally" to make my sentences more powerful and true.

lol, you're one of those. good to know
 
I don't understand the dismissive comments being made here, is it that hard to believe that there could be a problem with the current immigration policy?
You don't understand because you have no idea what you're observing. Nobody believes that there are no problems with any immigration policy in Sweden (as there have been several changes since 2014). You can drop that bit.

In 2016 there was a majority decition to apply a temporary law for immigration, limiting some groups from entering the country. Majority in this case means support from most parties left and right, 75% of representatives voted "yes". So, most people (by representation) have some problem with the immigration policy. If that sounds insanely reductive that's because it is, but at least it's not as reductive and false as ”no problem”, which is silly within any context, as there will always be room for improvement, and in a working democracy it's all about making compromises.

Depending on the individual situation for each and every person that comes here, you may be classified as one of three categories of migrants. One of those categories is ”refugee”. If you are a refugee, you cannot be deported, as that breaks national law, EU law, and UN conventions. Unless you know the specifics of each categorization, you should never call for a ban on immigrants. You should also refrain from giving your valuable ”opinion”, because it probably doesn't mean shit.

One of the main reasons for limiting immigration is that the Swedish Migration Office was not able to handle application within a reasonable timeframe. At its peak you'd have to wait 1.5 years for a decision as to wether or not you'd get to stay, which is pretty unreasonable. The temporary law limits new applications coming in and the Migration Office is working to get through applications.

This limit would be hard to foresee as the increase in numbers meant a lot of new recruits (more jobs!) at the Migration Office. These inexperienced officers take as long as 3x the time, if not more, to work through one application. During this time, the Migration Office has gone through a chock-like reaction to the number of applicants which has spawned a notable number of changes for an otherwise slow beurocratic system. Had the service been better prepared, the current situation could've looked very different.

So there are a multitude of factors playing into this, and there are a lot of complex issues. If you're referring to YouTube-videos as your source you're out of the loop, guaranteed.

And those wanting to completely stop refugees from seeking asylum are calling for illegal actions. That right there is a clear warning that a person 1) has no clue and 2) doesn't care enough to get a clue and 3) is probably a anti-feminist racist alt-right douchebag.
 
Please don't accuse me of not having an idea of what I am observing. It's clear that a lot of comments in this thread are dismissive and that was my whole point. My question was if it's hard to believe the immigration policy could be a problem. You've outlined that there are many factors and complexities. The current policy is definitely one of those factors and I don't think dismissive comments are helping this discussion.
But I meant it. If you're touting the opinion of one youtuber you have no idea. The youtuber is dismissed with good reason. Having an idea of the situation will tell you that.

If enough people tell you that then there should be a problem, right?
 
It doesn't matter if you meant it, I don't appreciate being accused of not understanding the issues based on assumptions.

Your reasoning is confusing. Are you saying if a majority of people tell me that I have no idea about the situation, you think that means I have no idea about the issues here...just because other people claim that to be the case? If that's what you're alluding to, you're mistaken. I'm not touting his opinion, I've clearly stated that my opinion is that this issue should be thoroughly investigated and not dismissed or belittled. I did not share the video but I think his opinions should be considered just as much as your own in this discussion.
No, his opinion is giving false information in an agitating manner which is why it should be dismissed. He's not the first asshole youtuber to not understand legislation and is as such thoroughly investigated. Again, if you had an idea, that would be obvious, and it is obvious to many.

Not all opinions deserve the same amount respect or consideration, which is why we have things such as expert opinion. YouTube is never a source of expert opinion, any gaffer can determine that.
 
You can have that opinion but that doesn't mean it's right or fair to dismiss someone who thinks differently. You would not appreciate it if your own opinions were ignored and dismissed based on your political affiliation or for being labeled something that may or may not be true. And you would be completely right in feeling that way.

To have a fair discussion, both sides need to have a chance to share and discuss their viewpoints equally. That's just my opinion and you're more than welcome to disagree. You've stated that the immigration policy has had changes for some time now. That means it's still a work in progress, and it should be treated as such. There are many factors involved and lots of opinions about what to do to fix the issues here, however, dismissing any of these opinions, either your own or his, is not productive in any way.
If that's your stance then why even bother questioning people's dismissal of said youtuber? It is, after all, their opinion. How many would need to dismiss him before he's ”thoroughly investigated”? Your method is awfully impractical if you stop and consider every racist asshole that will pass you by. It also plays into the hands of the groups spreading false information as only the other side will be fettered to the idea of well sourced information. Instead you should probably lean towards agreeing with the people dismissing as they've made the case clear several times in this thread.

I'm well aware that people will dismiss my opinion. Now I happen to be sure it is right as any research into current legislation will back it up. I don't need your approval, and I don't need the masses to have their say in a case that's already dealt with, that's if[/] you have an idea about what the situation is. If you don't, then it's your obligation to educate yourself. If you'd put any time of your own into this you'd arrive at the same conclusion that yes, that youtuber is full of shit.

So yeah, people will dismiss me and anyone else and it's their right to do so. It won't however change the realities of the present situation, which is why I'm not bothered when I'm certain the information is properly sourced.
 

Zen Aku

Member
I'm not very familiar with Sweden and their crime statistic. Did their government release any information on crimes and its correlation to immigration?

Most of the time when you introduce a large amount of people into an area of different background and languages, there's bound to be some problems. But I highly doubt that all these rape cases we've been hearing are all because of immigrants. Seem like an easy scapegoat.
 

Sunster

Member
O'm not very familiar with Sweden and their crime statistic. Did their government release any information on crimes and its correlation to immigration?

Most of the time when you introduce a large amount of people into an area of different background and languages, there's bound to be some problems. But I highly doubt that all these rape cases we've been hearing are all because of immigrants. Seem like an easy scapegoat.

From what I've heard, rape has been a big problem in Sweden for 10+ years. Culture clashes are inevitable. However, mass rapes at the hands of evil brown people seems like classic hysteria and fear mongering for political gains by the right.
 

kinoki

Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
From what I've heard, rape has been a big problem in Sweden for 10+ years. Culture clashes are inevitable. However, mass rapes at the hands of evil brown people seems like classic hysteria and fear mongering for political gains by the right.

Rape is a hard thing to measure. The best you can ascribe to a high value is that the society has a low tolerance for rape. Not that more rapes are being commited. Any well-functioning society would report any attempt at rape. In most countries there is victim blaming and in many cases even judicial blame of the victim. Sweden is very functioning in its reporting. We don't rape more. We condemn it and it's offenders more.
 
So, my Facebook feed here in Sweden is starting to get people liking stuff about how Trump and Fox are validating their sources for opinions about migration problems.

When it was Trump that through Fox used "sources" similiar to theirs, to validate his opinions.

And Fox has also used these swedish sources to validate Trump opinions.

My head is starting to hurt of this circle jerk of stupidity.
 

verbatimo

Member
People on twitter were saying there was a big riot in the migrant areas of Sweden last night is this true? wasn't on BBC

Found these sources

SVT Nyheter
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/upplopp-i-rinkeby-polisen-skot-varningsskott

Aftonbladet
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/Lz524/polis-avlossade-varningsskott-mot-stenkastare-i-rinkeby

The rioting began when police arrested the wanted person at the Rinkeby metro station. Police were forced to fire warning shots. One police officer is injured from stoning.
 

Jackpot

Banned
Where are yours?

um, burden of proof lies with the accuser. When someone claims that the entire population of a country believes such a thing, minus every single journalist who are running a conspiracy to deny said thing, you expect a little bit of evidence.

This basic failure to even understand how facts work, it's no wonder fake news spreads.

You can have that opinion but that doesn't mean it's right or fair to dismiss someone who thinks differently.

My opinion of your opinion is that it's garbage, and as a relativist you have to accept it. It's a self-refuting argument.

To have a fair discussion, both sides need to have a chance to share and discuss their viewpoints equally.

Opinions are not equal. This is just like how Fox sticks an anti-vax person and a scientist in a round-table discussion. giving them equal platforms and thereby making their views equally potentially valid.

Again, this is how fake news has spread.

lol, you're one of those others. good to know

one of those "others" who doesn't think real journalism is on par with outlets who actively fabricate stories? What's wrong with you?

From what I've heard, rape has been a big problem in Sweden for 10+ years.

Right-wing thinktanks have been pushing the idea hard that "Sweden is the rape capital of Europe" in order to help their narrative, but it's a case of "lies, damned lies, and statistics".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19592372

Which two countries are the kidnapping capitals of the world?

Australia and Canada.

Official figures from the United Nations show that there were 17 kidnaps per 100,000 people in Australia in 2010 and 12.7 in Canada.

That compares with only 0.6 in Colombia and 1.1 in Mexico.

So why haven't we heard any of these horror stories? Are people being grabbed off the street in Sydney and Toronto, while the world turns a blind eye?

No, the high numbers of kidnapping cases in these two countries are explained by the fact that parental disputes over child custody are included in the figures
.
If one parent takes a child for the weekend, and the other parent objects and calls the police, the incident will be recorded as a kidnapping, according to Enrico Bisogno, a statistician with the United Nations.

Comparing crime rates across countries is fraught with difficulties - this is well known among criminologists and statisticians, less so among journalists and commentators.
Sweden has the highest rape rate in Europe, author Naomi Wolf said on the BBC's Newsnight programme recently. She was commenting on the case of Julian Assange, the Wikileaks founder who is fighting extradition from the UK to Sweden over rape and sexual assault allegations that he denies.

Is it true? Yes. The Swedish police recorded the highest number of offences - about 63 per 100,000 inhabitants - of any force in Europe, in 2010. The second-highest in the world.

This was three times higher than the number of cases in the same year in Sweden's next-door neighbour, Norway, and twice the rate in the United States and the UK. It was more than 30 times the number in India, which recorded about two offences per 100,000 people.

On the face of it, it would seem Sweden is a much more dangerous place than these other countries.

"In Sweden there has been this ambition explicitly to record every case of sexual violence separately, to make it visible in the statistics," she says.

"So, for instance, when a woman comes to the police and she says my husband or my fiance raped me almost every day during the last year, the police have to record each of these events, which might be more than 300 events. In many other countries it would just be one record - one victim, one type of crime, one record."

The thing is, the number of reported rapes has been going up in Sweden - it's almost trebled in just the last seven years. In 2003, about 2,200 offences were reported by the police, compared to nearly 6,000 in 2010.

So something's going on.

But Klara Selin says the statistics don't represent a major crime epidemic, rather a shift in attitudes. The public debate about this sort of crime in Sweden over the past two decades has had the effect of raising awareness, she says, and encouraging women to go to the police if they have been attacked.

The police have also made efforts to improve their handling of cases, she suggests, though she doesn't deny that there has been some real increase in the number of attacks taking place - a concern also outlined in an Amnesty International report in 2010.
 

neoanarch

Member
Yeah, in Rinkeby. People were throwing rocks and burning cars, the police shot but didn't hit anyone.

http://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/upplopp-i-rinkeby-polisen-skot-varningsskott

Found these sources

SVT Nyheter
http://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/stockholm/upplopp-i-rinkeby-polisen-skot-varningsskott

Aftonbladet
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/Lz524/polis-avlossade-varningsskott-mot-stenkastare-i-rinkeby

The rioting began when police arrested the wanted person at the Rinkeby metro station. Police were forced to fire warning shots. One police officer is injured from stoning.



http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=1345969&page=100000


Might want to read the very last post in this locked thread.
 

lazygecko

Member
People on twitter were saying there was a big riot in the migrant areas of Sweden last night is this true? wasn't on BBC

There was. Allegedly instigated by increased police presence. Worth noting though is that when "riots" are reported in Sweden they are not even close in scope to what you'd associate with a typical riot in the US or Britain. Some cars were set on fire and some shops were vandalized and robbed with a couple of injuries (as in less than 5 according to reports so far).

Is it a significant problem? Of course. But this is pretty much the threshold for what is considered an exceptionally violent event in Sweden which occurs every few years, and I think it's important putting that into perspective.
 
After this I expect Trump to tweet this
ruins.jpg

and claim "Look this is Sweden after the terrorist attack we need that ban in place"
Fun Fact: When looking for this picture I found a daily mail article that claims that migrants destroyed the Town of Molnal.
 

Sunster

Member
Rape is a hard thing to measure. The best you can ascribe to a high value is that the society has a low tolerance for rape. Not that more rapes are being commited. Any well-functioning society would report any attempt at rape. In most countries there is victim blaming and in many cases even judicial blame of the victim. Sweden is very functioning in its reporting. We don't rape more. We condemn it and it's offenders more.

huh, so you are in fact better in every way...
 

berzeli

Banned
Are you trying to put the blame on the police here or something? or am I not understanding your wording.
I think lazygecko might have worded it poorly, the minister for home affairs stated that the riots may be caused by criminal elements feeling increased pressure from the heightened police presence in Rinkeby. The supposed ignition of the riots last night was the police making an arrest, so I think that might be the what was meant.

Other than that his post is pretty spot on, this wasn't a major incident. But there was an incident.
 

54-46!

Member
I think lazygecko might have worded it poorly, the minister for home affairs stated that the riots may be caused by criminal elements feeling increased pressure from the heightened police presence in Rinkeby. The supposed ignition of the riots last night was the police making an arrest, so I think that might be the what was meant.

Other than that his post is pretty spot on, this wasn't a major incident. But there was an incident.

The problem is that they're getting more frequent.
 
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