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Xbox One TV Integration is apparently 'broken' For UK & Europe: Sky 50Hz Stutter
- Thread starter dmr87
- Start date
You only get NTSC judder on 24fps content pulldowned to 30fps.
Native 30/60fps content displayed at 60hz is marginally smoother than 25/50fps content at 50hz.
Actually, it would be easier for games and the dash to support 50Hz. with the potential upside that more games might work at 50hz if they can't quite manage 60
This is messed up though. For the occasional use of snapped TV it might be OK, but MS want you to watch all your live TV like this? Smh
Yeah, which is fine for games running at 30/60 frames but awful for 24 fps content like movies and television shows. I'd rather watch 24 fps content with a 4.2% speed up and no judder than have to deal with the headaches of 3:2 pulldown.
Actually, that's a really good point. Why don't games have 50hz support? I imagine games like Killzone that manage 50fps easily but struggle to maintain a consistent 60 would benefit quite a bit. Hmm.
Jezbollah
Member
I think this was likely a "Known shippable" - and may probably get repaired somewhere down the line. I'll bet it gets fixed whenever Microsoft decides to give a shit about the UK/Europe TV functionality.
Need to subscribe to a Xbox One firmware/System Update thread if it exists here. That'll be interesting to read into the next few months.
Need to subscribe to a Xbox One firmware/System Update thread if it exists here. That'll be interesting to read into the next few months.
My PC runs at 85Hz...
If anyone's wondering, the 50/60 Hz thing historically comes from the frequency on the power grid, PAL countries have 50Hz AC while the US has 60Hz AC. I suppose that mattered in the days of electron tubes. Kinda silly that HD in Europe hasn't gone up to 60Hz considering it uses the same resolutions as it does in the US (PAL is higher resolution than NTSC, 576i vs 480i) but if cable providers smell a chance to get away with delivering a lesser service they tend to do that...
If anyone's wondering, the 50/60 Hz thing historically comes from the frequency on the power grid, PAL countries have 50Hz AC while the US has 60Hz AC. I suppose that mattered in the days of electron tubes. Kinda silly that HD in Europe hasn't gone up to 60Hz considering it uses the same resolutions as it does in the US (PAL is higher resolution than NTSC, 576i vs 480i) but if cable providers smell a chance to get away with delivering a lesser service they tend to do that...
Just been playing with it myself, yes things scrolling at the bottom of the screen aren't smooth, I wouldn't say its a bad as judder though.
Watched some football and American football trying too see issues with panning but couldn't really notice even though I was looking for it, might help having a panasonic plasma?
I guess the alternative is for the dashboard to output at 50hz but this would mean the tv handshaking again when you switched to a game so you'd lose the smoothness of flicking between apps (which is awesome by the way)
Watched some football and American football trying too see issues with panning but couldn't really notice even though I was looking for it, might help having a panasonic plasma?
I guess the alternative is for the dashboard to output at 50hz but this would mean the tv handshaking again when you switched to a game so you'd lose the smoothness of flicking between apps (which is awesome by the way)
Beerman462
Member
Guess customers wouldn't be happy if the tv had to handshake every time you switched between hd and sd content?
Sometimes you don't notice how bad things look until you've seen something better and then it can be hard to go back. I never really noticed anything but motion judder at 60Hz until I started using a 120Hz monitor. Now 60Hz appears extremely blurry and the judder is worse. Sometimes it's bad enough to give me a headache. Keep in mind this isn't motion interpolation but an actual 120Hz display.
The PAL vs. NTSC argument is irrelevant for a modern console like the Xbox One isn't it? It's going to more than likely display 720p or 1080p regardless of broadcast standards.
Graphics Horse
Member
Does this come out worse than watching something through iplayer on your 60hz machine? I can understand there can be differences in the way it's processed but I'm curious how bad it can be.
Off topic: I just noticed some judder on certain scenes in Countyfile (live, no xbone) I think they must have had one camera at the wrong fps.
Off topic: I just noticed some judder on certain scenes in Countyfile (live, no xbone) I think they must have had one camera at the wrong fps.
Which is, like, every movie ever.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Yes this is glaring oversight. Im guessing that they assumed that they wouldnt have this issue as our tvs are native 50hz over component/scart.
Graphics Horse
Member
It was a predictable problem to have, there simply is no perfect solution to it. Maybe something can be done to smooth it out a little if they have spare processing. I guess blending certain frames together would help but I'm not sure how it looks.
Monty Mole
Member
Most US TV content worth watching is 24fps though. Obviously not sports, reality or news, but all the scripted stuff is, whether it's something like Big Bang or Homeland.
StalkerUKCG
Banned
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
I only discoved it recently and ive owned my smart tv for over a year.
fabricated backlash
Member
Unless Pal 50 dies completely, this won't change because broadcasters in Europe aren't willing to give up their legacy content, or god forbid, invest money to adapt it.
American TV shows are filmed at 24?
feint_ruled
Member
How do TVs do it for PiP if one source is 50Hz and one source is 60? Can it actually display the two framerates simultaneously, or does it have to speed up the slower one?
Intheflorsh
Banned
I had no idea PAL ran at 50hz. I guess all television in Europe is like a fucking slideshow.
Monty Mole
Member
Scripted stuff yes.
plasmawave
Banned
Sounds like MS just shipped the US version of the console to overseas or something.
The Faceless Master
Member
why are HD broadcasts in 50hz there? that should have been the perfect time to jump ship...
To be fair, MS couldn't have done anything against this overall, although in some instances they could perfectly have the console output at 50Hz.
Because cinema, and germans.
Haha. You do realize most content is shot at 24FPS, right? The slideshow joke's on you.
Because cinema, and germans.
Haha. You do realize most content is shot at 24FPS, right? The slideshow joke's on you.
What?
48hz support should have been bundled in with the 720p and 1080p spec. 50hz and 60 hz should have been dropped a long time ago. The sooner we get rid of PAL speedup and 3:2 pulldown, the better.
To what? 60hz is terrible (easily worse than 50hz), and too few TVs support 48hz.
Yes
Monty Mole
Member
Or perhaps the US could have jumped ship to 50hz?
In reality, it's all the legacy content and cameras etc. All upscaled stuff on HD channels would have been judder hell. Also, as explained earlier, 50hz treats US scripted TV shows and movies better than 60hz due to speed-up instead of pulldown.
50hz doesn't cause any issues at all outside of Xbox One so why on earth would it needed to have changed?
Cthulhu_Steev
Member
I might be going crazy, but surely that would mess up online multiplayer timings? Won't they have to create a 50hz only server for UK games? Or make it so you can only use Snap in offline games.
Or it'll be the return of borders for PAL regions.
aHebrewMenagerie
Member
I can see them patching this in a relatively short amount of time.
Unless the HDMI repeater doesn't support 50Hz or isn't firmware upgradable.
I'm not sure what they can do about it. Either they slow games down (unacceptable), or speed TV up (unacceptable), or they stick with the current approach and you get judder.
Well done. Tag worthy I'd say.
Well done. Tag worthy I'd say.
An ignorant yank appears!
It's dumb but not exactly surprising that it's an Americabox, a lot of info we've had in the run in to launch pointed at it.
andromeduck
Member
pretty sure most of them are async now considering they'd have to account for differing latencies/bandwidths
in either case I think that'd be less obvious than visual judder
I was about to ask this after launch because I thought Monty Mole's thread was very interesting. Congratulations on calling it, well done.
There was no snap so the TV output was at 50Hz in PlayTV and when you switched out of PlayTV the PS3 set its output back to 60Hz I guess.
I liked PlayTV but don't get MS TV integration. Instead of integrating a tuner they just have an HDMI in.
There was no snap so the TV output was at 50Hz in PlayTV and when you switched out of PlayTV the PS3 set its output back to 60Hz I guess.
I liked PlayTV but don't get MS TV integration. Instead of integrating a tuner they just have an HDMI in.
fabricated backlash
Member
Judging from my experience as to how willing european broadcasters are about spending money into improving their broadcast standards/archiving-providing solutions, (read cuts rather than investments) this won't happen for another 10 years, and by then they'll need to support 720p 50hz. And that's if by some fucking miracle the incompetent fools running broadcasters across Europe can fucking come together and actually agree on something.
TylerDurden4321
Member
I think you should compare north american NTSC-TV-broadcasts to European ones of some sport events in the pre HD-Era, before making comments on the quality of the lower-framerate pal standard (I always was fine with colors looking natural and higher resolution due to 20% more scan lines). Even HiFi fanatics in the US referred to NTSC meaning "never the same color".
But now what I really wanted to say is:
I'm fine with no TV-snap in PAL-regions. What I'm NOT fine with being unable to choose the language in certain games! Back when I still had an Xbox360 I could just set the system language to english and it played games in english (if it was on the disc), NOW (maybe this is not new to most people, but I haven't had a MS console for 3 years)... NOW the language is tied to a region, a region the store is tied to, a store that tells me I can't buy shit, because it knows my set region is not where I am because my IP-adress (and credit card) says otherwise.
I really can't live with shitty translations forced on me. I'm getting a PS4 as well and until MS has fixed the language selection problem, I won't go XBLGold and will get my games on the PS4.
mrlovepump
Neo Member
call me mr sourpuss but this just clicked for me
I very sadly believe MS knew this. This is why they focused on tv for the US (obvious one) and Japan (strange market to attack given they have no hope).
I cannot help but feel they knew this was a problem and have been effectively selling xbox ones in Europe based on false promises. If you get into foil hat mode many of the deflections about TV in Europe now make way more sense.
There is simply no way to mix a 50 and 60hz image in a nice way. They are not going to push the games to 50hz and the TV source sure as hell isnt going to move away from 50hz any time soon.... hmmmm.
I very sadly believe MS knew this. This is why they focused on tv for the US (obvious one) and Japan (strange market to attack given they have no hope).
I cannot help but feel they knew this was a problem and have been effectively selling xbox ones in Europe based on false promises. If you get into foil hat mode many of the deflections about TV in Europe now make way more sense.
There is simply no way to mix a 50 and 60hz image in a nice way. They are not going to push the games to 50hz and the TV source sure as hell isnt going to move away from 50hz any time soon.... hmmmm.
foobarry81
Member
I'm thinking people didn't understand what you meant, either because they didn't read your OP well enough, or because they didn't understand how it's the frequency of the signal that's important, not what your TV is capable of displaying.
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