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[Zemm]

Should have banned him from using and having a computer like they took away Tom Haverford's phone. Now that's a punishment.

https://youtu.be/lfhS7meOZJw

 

[BumblebeeCody]

Dude it off light.

 

[KJRS_1993]

You're making way too many assumptions.

How am I?
It's been quoted in the OP that he has been sentenced to work against other cyber crimes.
It was an assumption that it would be to identify other members of "hacking" groups, but seeing as that's what the kid already knows about, that's a reasonable guess.

What other assumptions am I making?

 

[zerokoolpsx]

After all that, only 2 years. That's a slap on the wrist. Should have banned him from using a computer for x amount of years instead.

 

[>-Baron-Spamedi-<]

The main thing is that he was caught and convicted. His anonymous status was exposed and he can never do this again, because his door will be the first police knock on if it happens again.

I hope part of his punishment was helping track down the other members of LS.

Don't people usually only give up their gang if they are threatened with severe punishment?

His name being exposed 'could' mean he'll never do it again. It could equally mean he waits out his two years and just tries harder to make sure he doesn't get caught in the future.

Also, for anyone out there claiming his young brain development Is to blame for this - presumably you would be in favour of locking him up until his early to mid twenties when we can be sure his brain will be developed and he will therefore pose absolutely no further risk to society upon release?

 

[Moonstone]

After all that, only 2 years. That's a slap on the wrist. Should have banned him from using a computer for x amount of years instead.

I don't think that such measures exist in finnland. At least they don't in germany.

 

[chiliboy]

Someone who can get locked right back up if they decide to not learn their lesson and use their hard luck story as justification for feeling entitled to do things that other people choose not to, no matter how hard they have it or have had it, and irregardless of what criminal skillsets and opportunities they have.

Excellent post, thanks. I will never ever understand people who say "Oh I have it so bad so therefore I will commit crimes and make it even worse"
It feels like this kid got away with this and that sets a dangerous precedent.

 

[ConceptX]

Excellent post, thanks. I will never ever understand people who say "Oh I have it so bad so therefore I will commit crimes and make it even worse"
It feels like this kid got away with this and that sets a dangerous precedent.

Slightly off topic, but many people re-offend due to having a better life in prison than the outside world.

Your living rent free with three meals a day, with the ability to gain a job/education, good behaviour giving access to TV and entertainment, and so on, it's often a better choice for them, which is a big part of the problem with current justice systems.

It's more complicated than that, due to the country, the type of prison, and the crimes commited, but it's not rare that a life in prison can be have a better quality of life than outside on the poverty line.

 

[Moonstone]

Slightly off topic, but many people re-offend due to having a better life in prison than the outside world.

Your living rent free with three meals a day, with the ability to gain a job/education, good behaviour giving access to TV and entertainment, and so on, it's often a better choice for them, which is a big part of the problem with current justice systems.

Europe (at least finnland and the richer countries) has a social wellfare system, Even if you never work, you won't end on the street. You get health insurance, a flat and your own TV. Going to prison to save rent doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[tattooed_dwarf]

Well, this kid can still turn to be useful part of society, that mark in his records will follow him for rest of his life. I'm more concerned on all those laughable short sentences they give for those who rape (here in Finland).

 

[>-Baron-Spamedi-<]

How am I?
It's been quoted in the OP that he has been sentenced to work against other cyber crimes.
It was an assumption that it would be to identify other members of "hacking" groups, but seeing as that's what the kid already knows about, that's a reasonable guess.

What other assumptions am I making?

I don't think it's a reasonable guess at all. He might just as easily be being asked to go around schools telling disinterested teenagers not to steal credit cards.

You assume it's a productive use of his time yet have no idea what he is actually doing or how effective it will be.
You are assuming that the alternative is festering in a cell.
You assume that he couldn't undergo any form of useful rehabilitation if he was incarcerated or that it is impossible to both deprive someone of their liberty and provide a rehabilitation service simultaneously.
You make the assumption that the only possible outcome to deprivation of his liberty is that he comes out dumb and jaded.

None of these thing are at all certain. Pretty much everything you said was an assumption?

 

[>-Baron-Spamedi-<]

Slightly off topic, but many people re-offend due to having a better life in prison than the outside world.

Your living rent free with three meals a day, with the ability to gain a job/education, good behaviour giving access to TV and entertainment, and so on, it's often a better choice for them, which is a big part of the problem with current justice systems.

It's more complicated than that, due to the country, the type of prison, and the crimes commited, but it's not rare that a life in prison can be have a better quality of life than outside on the poverty line.

That can be true. I remember one prisoner telling me that he puropefully went out and beat the living shit out of someone he didn't like simply because he wanted to go back inside. He had previously been in prison for manslaughter.
He was a genuinely frightening man. He never displayed any remorse and little empathy and had a crazy temper. A pretty bad combination, I guess.

 

[Gravy Boat]

Yes, very sad, but at least we won't have many more of them thinking they can put people's lives in danger with little consequence.

He hasn't been charged for swatting. Has nobody read the articles in the OP?

 

[Palette Swap]

Slightly off topic, but many people re-offend due to having a better life in prison than the outside world.

Doesn't most available data point to the exact opposite? ie harsher conditions in prison favor recidivism?

 

[Yaska]

Ordered the court documents, should arrive this week or the next. Will post here what the sentence actually was about and what the sentence actually is.

 

[mcz117chief]

What a joke of a justice system.

yeah, we should execute everyone who steals a bread. Get real, people. The kid made a big mistake, but that is not a reason to ruin his life and turn him into a burden for the society for the rest of his life. Justice is not just about throwing people to the lions but the idea is to make people realise what they have done and better themselves.

 

[jorma]

2 years on probation seems a bit harsh for a 17 yo for a non violent crime.
Finland aren't as progressive as us Swedish progressives when it comes to sentencing.

 

[Tumle]

No but he should have been locked up for at least 5-8 years


All this weak sentence shows is that you can do whatever you want as long as you don't get tried in the United states

Yes because we all know how great the prison system works in the U.S...
Prison is not always the answer, and in the U.S. case with no rehabilitation, it's just pushing the problem aside for a while and let it get worse when they are someday released..
On the subject I would want him to get some kind of prison sentence as he has put some guys life at risk at one point.

 

[>-Baron-Spamedi-<]

Doesn't most available data point to the exact opposite? ie harsher conditions in prison favor recidivism?

I imagine in the majority of cases people do not reoffend because prison is better.
But I have known of two prisoners that have done that. I've already mentioned one.

I can't say too much about the other one I know of as the details are very distinctive.
It involved a person who struggled to cope with day to day life due to problems in their upbringing and who also had a personality disorder. They performed an attack and immediately reported themselves to the police.
Consequently the person was imprisoned on an indeterminate sentence for their own and public safety.
It was quite a sad story and I can't help but wonder if there were any missed opportunities in this persons earlier life that could have lead to a better outcome.

That's the picture you tend not to see by just reading data.

 

[Americanmushroom]

yeah, we should execute everyone who steals a bread. Get real, people. The kid made a big mistake, but that is not a reason to ruin his life and turn him into a burden for the society for the rest of his life. Justice is not just about throwing people to the lions but the idea is to make people realise what they have done and better themselves.

This

 

[>-Baron-Spamedi-<]

Ordered the court documents, should arrive this week or the next. Will post here what the sentence actually was about and what the sentence actually is.

Excellent. At least that should clear up the facts and cut back most of the assumptions.

 

[>-Baron-Spamedi-<]

yeah, we should execute everyone who steals a bread. Get real, people. The kid made a big mistake, but that is not a reason to ruin his life and turn him into a burden for the society for the rest of his life. Justice is not just about throwing people to the lions but the idea is to make people realise what they have done and better themselves.

Because it's one or the other isn't it? Execution or a slap on the wrist.
There's room for subtlety and no middle ground at all. smh.

Justice is about being just. Fair and equitable punishment and fair and equitable reward. It's about victims receiving fair and equitable reparations for the harm caused. It's about protecting and providing security for society.

Offender rehabilitation can also be a part of that. Sometimes it's by far the most important part of that. But usually it is not the only concern.

I'm pretty sure most of the people taking this ludicrously simplistic stance are only doing so because they see computer crime and credit card fraud as victimless crimes.
They wouldn't be quite so keen to ignore the other functions of justice if this was a 17 year old paedophile, rapist or murderer.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Read some sobering articles, and you're not going to see the prison system change in the U.S., because it's a for profit business. Any hint of reform is shot down by prison lobbyists.

http://www.slate.com/articles/brief...est_problems_with_the_u_s_prison_system_.html

 

[mcz117chief]

Because it's one or the other isn't it? Execution or a slap on the wrist.
There's room for subtlety and no middle ground at all. smh.

Justice is about being just. Fair and equitable punishment and fair and equitable reward. It's about victims receiving fair and equitable reparations for the harm caused. It's about protecting and providing security for society.

Offender rehabilitation can also be a part of that. Sometimes it's by far the most important part of that. But usually it is not the only concern.

I'm pretty sure most of the people taking this ludicrously simplistic stance are only doing so because they see computer crime and credit card fraud as victimless crimes.
They wouldn't be quite so keen to ignore the other functions of justice if this was a 17 year old paedophile, rapist or murderer.

All I am saying is that he got an appropriate punishment. I don't think that they should have let him go or something. The people who ask for jail time are just crazy. Sending a kid to jail for trying to act cool ? I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if I did something like that as a judge.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Not sure why it is confusing you. I stated I don't agree with some of their laws but I admit they are effective for governing their people as a deterrent. I mean to me some of it is completely absurd to lose your life over some of the Singapore laws but at the same time Norway which operates much like Finland gave a mass killer of 77 people a 21 year sentence which is beyond stupid and I think there needs to be a middle ground in all of this.

The problem is no one is sure if their laws are causing this. Why? They're not really open with how things are done. Do you have any studies to say otherwise? Right now all the studies show it doesn't work.

Also if you are gonna call out Singapore for cooking the books you would be calling out pretty much all of South/Eastern Asia considering Japan, China, Taiwan, Indonesia, Hong Kong all have very harsh punishments yet they also have some fairly low crime rates.

You can call out Japan because it's well known they do handle things oddly. Osaka, Japan was caught doing this: http://www.japantoday.com/category/...e-admit-hiding-81000-crimes-to-clean-up-image

The problem with a lot of these countries is they're generally not open to sharing how things are handled behind the scenes. You can't really study things you're not allowed to see.

In the article you linked the picture of countries with the Death Penalty has countries from worst crime rates to the best (South Korea) so arguing the effectiveness by that alone is incredibly misleading and is purely opinion until proven certain by eliminating all the other contributing factors.

What contributing factors?

Let's look at the murder rate per state in the USA: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRalpha
http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/...enalty-facts/the-death-penalty-and-deterrence

You're not going to find anything substantial that says the death penalty or punishment oriented sentences work.

As far as diversity goes I think it plays a role to some extent. If you look at the lowest crime countries you see that pretty much all of them have a near 90% or higher of original origin to that country. The UK which has probably the worst rates in the EU also has a pretty diverse group of people 1/6 being non white there.

I can't argue with this. There's no data to show diversity overrides rehabilitation.

Do I think that the reasons I gave are the only reasons? Of course not like I said there are tons of factors that it makes it very hard to directly compare. So when you try to compare groups with tons of contributing factors and boil it all down to one fact you are coming across as the same people who argue that vaccinations cause autism.

It is a melting pot, yes, but you haven't adequately shown the death penalty or punishment in general acts as a deterrent. This topic has been studied many times before. It does not work.

My personal stance varies case by case and I think this guy needs to spend a lot of time away from the internet and isolated to get help and that is why I suggest a retreat for mental health.

You have to raise an eyebrow when someone defends the death penalty and then says this person needs rehab. It makes you seem not confident in your argument because you recognize a way that works better.

 

[protomouse]

That is a really mild sentence. Seems like other Nordic countries also have a mild legal system, its so annyoing sometimes.

Why is it annoying though? The Nordic countries host some of the world's most efficient and effective justice systems. The lack of emphasis on deterrence and sense of retribution is key to that success.

I think 2 years probation for the cybercrime charges is a fair sentence, considering that he's a legal minor.

 

[artsi]

He hasn't been charged for swatting. Has nobody read the articles in the OP?

Please note this.

He was sentenced for cybercrimes and money laundering that he did in 2012-2013.
He's still under investigation for other crimes, that might or might not include swatting, and if he's found guilty then he'll get another sentence.

They need evidence that he personally was responsible for the calls to sentence him, just that he was involved with a group that made them isn't enough.

 

[AmaterasuOni]

In Finland we have this thing called "never trust the law". Honestly, only the people who commit tax evasion and other business related crimes are getting serious sentences. Even the rapists and child molestors get less from their hideous crimes.

This is exatly the sentence I thought he's going to get. Basically nothing. Cyber crimes are beneficial in Finland (and I guess everywhere). You cannot even categorize these crimes at the moment. Cyber world is the grey zone.

Stupid shit.

 

[impact]

In Finland we have this thing called "never trust the law". Honestly, only the people who commit tax evasion and other business related crimes are getting serious sentences. Even the rapists and child molestors get less from their hideous crimes.

This is exatly the sentence I thought he's going to get. Basically nothing. Cyber crimes are beneficial in Finland (and I guess everywhere). You cannot even categorize these crimes at the moment. Cyber world is the grey zone.

Stupid shit.

Sounds like the Sweden-Norway-Finland area is a great place to be a terrible person.

 

[Yaska]

Just got the actual sentence, reading it now. But from the first page, this is NOT the PSN/xblive case.

The parties in this case are Educause, Harvard University, Massachusetts Institute of Technology and MongoHQ Inc.

I will update more as I get through the sentence (it's only 54 pages phew).

Edit: the group he was in in these cases is Hack The Planet, or HTP.

 

[Gravy Boat]

Please note this.

He was sentenced for cybercrimes and money laundering that he did in 2012-2013.
He's still under investigation for other crimes, that might or might not include swatting, and if he's found guilty then he'll get another sentence.

They need evidence that he personally was responsible for the calls to sentence him, just that he was involved with a group that made them isn't enough.

Exactly, so this sentencing only pertains to those specific cyber crimes within that 1 year period. Investigations may show that he was involved directly with swatting and he may be sentenced for that at a later date, but 2 years suspended, for a minor on a first offence is a pretty fair result for the crimes he was charged for.

If he is found to be responsible for swatting then I'm sure a harsher sentence will come with it.

I feel like this should be added to the OP because I read through the whole thread and got really tired of people saying that this punishment wasn't enough for someone found guilty of swatting.

Also I'm not expert, but is 50,000 cases really a lot when we're talking about DDOSing? Couldn't all those 50,000 come from the one instance, if they see each attempt as an individual case? From what I understand, DDOSing is akin to hitting the refresh button over and over, but obviously it hits harder since it's basically a program sending out the data or whatever. Is that right? I really don't know much about this stuff.

 

[The Lamonster]

All of these kids should have been rotting in prison for years.

 

[Yaska]

If he would've been bit older, he would've gone to jail for 4 years. The young age (15) is the main reason he gets off this easy.

He was also sentenced to a superveillance by social workers (1 year, 3 months). Haven't found yet where it says that he should work with the authorities.

State took 6.588,88 euros from money laundering and the computer he used was Acer Aspire. He also wasn't allowed to save personal data from his computer.

The sentence itself does not have any mention that he should work with the law enforcement.

 

[mcz117chief]

All of these kids should have been rotting in prison for years.

Why not just execute them all ? That way we can save the money which we would spend on maintaining prisons and use it to wage more wars and make more dudebro videogames.

Spoiler

In case of doubt this is indeed a joke post. Throwing everyone in the prison DOES NOT solve everything.

In Finland we have this thing called "never trust the law". Honestly, only the people who commit tax evasion and other business related crimes are getting serious sentences. Even the rapists and child molestors get less from their hideous crimes.

This is exatly the sentence I thought he's going to get. Basically nothing. Cyber crimes are beneficial in Finland (and I guess everywhere). You cannot even categorize these crimes at the moment. Cyber world is the grey zone.

Stupid shit.

Very common in capitalist society. Tax evasion is considered an attack on the state itself and is therefore technically the worst offence. Attacks on individual humans are one tier below them, sad but true.

 

[StreetDisciple]

I think that people from the country with the largest prison population in the world and one of the highest recidivism rates in the (western) world need to stop trying to tell other countries how to sentence and jail their criminals.

He's a minor, he does not need to be removed from society and he needs to get help instead of being thrown in a place where none of his actual problems can get addressed. Lot a you people are just out for blood, and would rather see this guy suffer and deteriorate rather than get his life and mental state on track.

I know that's the norm over in the grand old USA, where people go in as thieves or pot-smokers and come out as drug-addicted gang-members (who are then unable to vote, buy a house or get a job), but other countries choose a more sane approach.

U hit the nail on the head and I'm from the US. The system is built for u to fuck up again and come back. The amount of ppl incarcerated for petty "crimes" is through the roof. My brother was an exception to the rule and is making a decent living after he did time for something he did 20 years ago when he was 17. The majority though don't make it once they get out and resort to doing the same if not worse shit.

 

[Yaska]

Anyway can the OP/title be updated that this sentencing had nothing to do with the Christmas attacks?

 

[BlitzKeeg]

U hit the nail on the head and I'm from the US. The system is built for u to fuck up again and come back. The amount of ppl incarcerated for petty "crimes" is through the roof. My brother was an exception to the rule and is making a decent living after he did time for something he did 20 years ago when he was 17. The majority though don't make it once they get out and resort to doing the same if not worse shit.

I'm also from the US and I completely agree. When I first read the OP I was like "Only 2 years? That's a slap on the wrist!", but now after reading that he's only 17, and has committed an entirely nonviolent offence, I realize all he needs is help.
Shoving him in a metal cell for the next 10 years is only going to make the situation worse and ruin his chances for rehabilitation. These types of sentences don't help them in any way. It just teaches them to be hateful against the system and society, making them more likely to commit another crime later on in life.

 

[Aliand]

Well, this kid can still turn to be useful part of society, that mark in his records will follow him for rest of his life. I'm more concerned on all those laughable short sentences they give for those who rape (here in Finland).

Is it really that bad in Finland?
In France here, I'd tend to say the justice system here is also sometimes a farce.

 

[pants]

The 'justice is punishment' crowd never stops putting me on the back foot.

 

[maniac-kun]

lol @ people demanding harsher punishment.
Dude is a minor and nobody got hurt. This is finland, not the wild west. In Finland the justice system is about rehabilitation, not revenge.

How will he be rehabilitated if there is no punishment for him?

 

[pants]

How will he be rehabilitated if there is no punishment for him?

Punishment isnt a tool for rehabilitation, it's 2015 breh.

 

[canedaddy]

Depressing to see no penalty for this piece of garbage.

 

[Pathfinder]

From Twitter:

Lizard Squad @LizardLands
"All the people that said we would rot in prison don't want to comprehend what we've been saying since the beginning, we have free passes."

https://twitter.com/LizardLands/status/618640372265275392

Good going, Finland. You sure taught them a lesson they'll never forget.

 

[Jin]

From Twitter:

Lizard Squad @LizardLands
"All the people that said we would rot in prison don't want to comprehend what we've been saying since the beginning, we have free passes."

https://twitter.com/LizardLands/status/618640372265275392

Good going, Finland. You sure taught them a lesson they'll never forget.

Doesn't look like rehabilitation is working here.

 

[maniac-kun]

From Twitter:

Lizard Squad @LizardLands
"All the people that said we would rot in prison don't want to comprehend what we've been saying since the beginning, we have free passes."

https://twitter.com/LizardLands/status/618640372265275392

Good going, Finland. You sure taught them a lesson they'll never forget.

Yes they are very rehabilitated.

 

[TomShoe]

From Twitter:

Lizard Squad @LizardLands
"All the people that said we would rot in prison don't want to comprehend what we've been saying since the beginning, we have free passes."

https://twitter.com/LizardLands/status/618640372265275392

Good going, Finland. You sure taught them a lesson they'll never forget.

Doesn't look like rehabilitation is working here.

Yes they are very rehabilitated.

GAF has no chill lol. Gotta find the guys before you can rehabilitate.

Personally a long stay in a military camp would do the trick IMO along with mental counseling and family therapy

 

[Pathfinder]

GAF has no chill lol. Gotta find the guys before you can rehabilitate.

They found one and all they did was shake their finger at him and called him naughty.

 

[lazer_bean]

Slightly off topic, but many people re-offend due to having a better life in prison than the outside world.

Your living rent free with three meals a day, with the ability to gain a job/education, good behaviour giving access to TV and entertainment, and so on, it's often a better choice for them, which is a big part of the problem with current justice systems.

It's more complicated than that, due to the country, the type of prison, and the crimes commited, but it's not rare that a life in prison can be have a better quality of life than outside on the poverty line.

lol your post is absolute nonsense.
Even in rich countries prison is helll unless you like taking a shit while one or two other cellmates are watching in the same 9m2 cell and having no privacy or dignity. Unless you like to work a full day for next to nothing (that's exploitation), etc.... I could go on but your post is nonsense

Prison makes people worse and also gives them the opportunity to meet and connect with other criminals. It's not a fucking hotel, wake up.

 

[Yaska]

They found one and all they did was shake their finger at him and called him naughty.

This kid will go to jail, there are multiple ongoing investigations against him and next time the fact that he's a first timer or extremely young won't save him.

 

[Henrar]

Punishment isnt a tool for rehabilitation, it's 2015 breh.

So how exactly will he be rehabilitated? He will do, along with the rest of the guys, do the same they did before.

The sentence is inadequate.