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[LiK]

It's not a controversial topic: rehabilitation works.

https://www.salve.edu/sites/default/files/filesfield/documents/Incarceration_and_Recidivism.pdf

Having punishment be part of the equation is just petty. Accept people can better themselves. Being petty does nothing except make you look bad.

yea, sure. let's see if he actually learns anything or he just goes straight back into what he was doing once his suspended sentence is over.

He made it so people couldn't play video games for a few hours.

Wait, he made it so people couldn't play video games online for a few hours. Totally making lives hard. Somebody could make an error and do more damage.

By this reasoning, Verizon should be in jail because they throttle Netflix traffic. It's not exactly life-disrupting.

it was more than a few hours. it was practically days and companies were affected and had to fix the issues and respond to millions of customers. people pay for the service.

 

[ReBurn]

I wouldn't want someone to go to jail for something like this. It's just video games. A hefty fine and community service would be cool, though.

 

[Dick Justice]

He kept us from playing our toys on Christmas morning!

He swatted people, giving them a free chance at being shot up by overzealous law enforcement officials! Golly gee, eh?

Yeah. That's fucked up. You also have to weigh that against the fact that he is a kid.

17. He knows what he's fucking doing, he's old enough to know right from wrong.

 

[Odrion]

The sentence comes off as naive to the crimes because "lol, internet." It reminds me of the Zoe Quinn article of when she was trying to get the cops to understand what the impact of the crimes committed against her really were like.

 

[pantsonhead]

Only two years? I demand at least that many in the oubliette!

 

[Subpar Spatula]

yea, sure. let's see if he actually learns anything or he just goes straight back into what he was doing once his suspended sentence is over.

This isn't a response to what I said. You're hiding from reality and want to believe what you want to believe. Your way has a better chance of failure. The Finnish way has a better chance of success.

 

[Piggus]

It truly amazes me how many people here think that bringing down an online service ONLY inconveniences the customers of that service. There's a lot of money loss involved in something like this. You may not care as a consumer, but prosecutors care when they're going after someone like this.

 

[Akai__]

He made it so people couldn't play video games for a few hours.

Wait, he made it so people couldn't play video games online for a few hours. Totally making lives hard. Somebody could make an error and do more damage.

By this reasoning, Verizon should be in jail because they throttle Netflix traffic. It's not exactly life-disrupting.

He is charged with 50 THOUSAND cyber crimes including identity theft of a certain family and calling in SWAT teams several times on them.

He is also being investigated for fake bomb threats on some universities, if I read posts in this thread correctly.

Your post is just laughable, because you don't even seem to understand that Sony/MS actually lost money by these attacks.

 

[>-Baron-Spamedi-<]

Punishment then? I don't think you understand what they're trying to achieve. Their way works. Yours does not. Wanting him to be in prison does nothing but temporarily sate your own desire to see him hurt in some fashion.

No. He clearly said he wanted a mixture of punishment and rehabilitation.
You can make as many glib and poorly considered statements about what works and what doesn't as you like. It doesn't make you right.

If punishment never works then tell me how many children Ian Brady and Myra Hindley killled after they were imprisoned for life?

I would have a lot more respect for people who make arguments like yours if they didn't usually come across as little other than a thinly veiled attempt to convince everyone that you are somehow morally superior or more beneficent and righteous.

Justice can be about rehabilitation. In some cases that may be the sole or most important aspect to be considered. However it isn't the only concern and it doesn't exclude things like punishment, public safety, reparation for victims etc.

 

[KJRS_1993]

yea, sure. let's see if he actually learns anything or he just goes straight back into what he was doing once his suspended sentence is over.

Well, seeing as the Finnish reoffending rate is so low compared to the American justice system, the evidence definitely suggests a higher probability of him learning something this way? Especially over dealing good old fashioned Merkin justice and locking people away and forgetting about them because ma vidya garms.

Not every problem needs a sledgehammer breh.

 

[oo7]

It's weird that there are so many sympathizers in this thread. The "lol just video games" argument is old and invalid.

 

[Silent Chief]

It truly amazes me how many people here think that bringing down an online service ONLY inconveniences the customers of that service. There's a lot of money loss involved in something like this. You may not care as a consumer, but prosecutors care when they're going after someone like this.

So, where do I sign for the civil lawsuit?

 

[Odrion]

Also criminal sentences aren't the only factor in recidivism, and my gut tells me that things such as poverty, the government's treatment of lower class citizens, racism, the financial structure of law enforcement, and education are really fucking important.

 

[Piggus]

Well, seeing as the Finnish reoffending rate is so low compared to the American justice system, the evidence definitely suggests a higher probability of him learning something this way? Especially over dealing good old fashioned Merkin justice and locking people away and forgetting about them because ma vidya garms.

Not every problem needs a sledgehammer breh.

So that's the only alternative? Him facing a harsher punishment suddenly means he's facing a similar punishment to what he would get in the US? Wow. Sounds like Finland needs to work on a middle ground option.

 

[joecanada]

HE MESSED WITH OUR VIDEO GAMES

TAKE HIM TO THE CHAIR

The OP clearly outlines swatting. Also if you caused damage to a company business and cost them a ton of money you can bet you will be punished

 

[Dr. Kitty Muffins]

This will just encourage more attacks.

 

[LiK]

Well, seeing as the Finnish reoffending rate is so low compared to the American justice system, the evidence definitely suggests a higher probability of him learning something this way? Especially over dealing good old fashioned Merkin justice and locking people away and forgetting about them because ma vidya garms.

Not every problem needs a sledgehammer breh.

thinking this isn't that serious because it's about video games. i see where you're coming from, breh

 

[Subpar Spatula]

No. He clearly said he wanted a mixture of punishment and rehabilitation.
You can make as many glib and poorly considered statements about what works and what doesn't as you like. It doesn't make you right.

If punishment never works then tell me how many children Ian Brady and Myra Hindley killled after they were imprisoned for life?

I would have a lot more respect for people who make arguments like yours if they didn't usually come across little other than a thinly veiled attempted to convince everyone that you are somehow morally superior or more beneficent and righteous.

Justice can be about rehabilitation. In some cases that may be the sole or most important aspect to be considered. However it isn't the only concern and it doesn't exclude things like punishment, public safety, reparation for victims etc.

Why add the punishment? It serves no purpose in making this person better. It's about making them feel pain. That's all. It's petty.

Ian Brady Myra Hindley were insane. During their times mental health was even less important than today.

Not all systems are perfect. The Finnish system doesn't make perfect systems but it works better than punishment. This is a fact. The goal is to better people.

 

[KJRS_1993]

So that's the only alternative? Him facing a harsher punishment suddenly means he's facing a similar punishment to what he would get in the US? Wow. Sounds like Finland needs to work on a middle ground option.

No, but what would making it any harsher achieve? The way they're doing it now has been proven to work much better.

If their was a case to be made that a middle ground between the two would reduce reoffences even more, then I'd definitely support that approach. Their may be room to say the UK is slightly between the two, to a degree. The prison sentences tend to be much shorter than in the US, but again, our reoffending rates are higher than Finland as well.

 

[Jobbs]

He made it so people couldn't play video games for a few hours.

Wait, he made it so people couldn't play video games online for a few hours. Totally making lives hard. Somebody could make an error and do more damage.

By this reasoning, Verizon should be in jail because they throttle Netflix traffic. It's not exactly life-disrupting.

People keep failing to notice that he swatted. This is the far more serious crime than DDOSing a service. Swatting should always result in hard jail time. You're putting lives at risk and violating peoples' homes (not to mention using up police resources).

 

[Silent Chief]

Not all systems are perfect. The Finnish system doesn't make perfect systems but it works better than punishment. This is a fact. The goal is to better people.

I'm okay with that, but can we block all Finnish IPs next time there is a DDOS attack against PSN?

 

[KJRS_1993]

thinking this isn't that serious because it's about video games. i see where you're coming from, breh

Dude, you're distracting from the fact that you don't know what you're on about. You've just been shown a proven case where this different form of justice works better and completely ignored it.

You've also chosen to focus on four or five, reasonably unimportant words in my entire post, again to move away from the fact you're a bit clueless.

Edit: softened the language.

 

[Nafai1123]

Sentence is too light imo. Dude swatted people for fucks sake. That could've gotten somebody killed.

 

[Odrion]

Like you talk about how recidivism is so high in America but you're leaving out that our law enforcement really loves to racially profile and harass minorities, and a lot of the time they are also financially dependent on this. Even if you manage to rise above the desire to recede (even if being a lower class citizen on parole is a really fucking hard living) that doesn't guarantee that a cop won't throw you back in jail for your dehumanizing stare.

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Like you talk about how recidivism is so high in America but you're leaving out that our law enforcement really loves to racially profile and harass minorities, and a lot of the time they are also financially dependent on this. Even if you manage to rise above the desire to recede (even if being a lower class citizen on parole is a really fucking hard living) that doesn't guarantee that a cop won't throw you back in jail for your dehumanizing stare.

While there are corrupt elements it's still better to strive for rehabilitation.

 

[AkuMifune]

In Europe we don't send people to die in prison for internet crimes.

I like how that's the only other option here. Having a broader view of justice does not always mean death.

Apologies to Finnish-GAF, but YO. Asshole skated.

 

[Doomshine]

I'm just going to quote this instead of repeating myself

These news about the sentencing didn't mention anything about swatting or Sony, just money laundering, CC fraud and breaches to Harvard, MIT and MongoHQ who didn't demand any damages.

Police is also saying that they're still investigating him for other suspected crimes, so he should be sentenced for those separately later.

 

[Clawww]

lol @ people demanding harsher punishment.
Dude is a minor and nobody got hurt. This is finland, not the wild west. In Finland the justice system is about rehabilitation, not revenge.

seriously. he's obviously got some degree of talent, too. there's no guarantee he'll stop being a jackass, but I'm sure this was a sobering experience, and now they can keep tabs on him more easily if he wants to keep fucking around.

 

[Apoleptica]

He should have just stayed anonymous, the whole bragging on twitter thing was really stupid.

 

[Odrion]

While there are corrupt elements it's still better to strive for rehabilitation.

<3 and peace on earth <3

 

[Silent Chief]

There is a swatter on trial here.

One key difference is that minors have their identity protected.

According to the prosecution’s case, the accused teen used a Twitter account to advertise his swatter-for-hire services. In some cases, the teen would give advance warning on Twitter and later claim responsibility on the same account following bomb threats and SWAT calls at homes and schools in Canada and the United States.

Other difference, our justice system is much slower.

The accused was arrested in 2014 and faces more than 30 charges, ranging from public mischief and death threats to false information with intent to cause alarm.

GTA? Nope.

The accused teen met one of his alleged victims through Minecraft. The court heard that the alleged victim began playing the online video game at the age of eight, then became an administrator because of his gifted gaming skills.

I'll update with the sentence as soon as I hear about it, in a year or two.

 

[JABEE]

It's weird that there are so many sympathizers in this thread. The "lol just video games" argument is old and invalid.

You're right. It's messed up and he should be punished as a minor for his crimes.

There are also not a lot of laws on the books specific to "Swatting."

I don't sympathize with him, I just don't understand the eagerness to put a kid in prison for a non-violent crime.

Though, "swatting" and harassing is serious. Someone could have been seriously injured and it wastes the time of law enforcement that could be saving other people.

 

[Jobbs]

You're right. It's messed up and he should be punished as a minor for his crimes.

There are also not a lot of laws on the books specific to "Swatting."

I don't sympathize with him, I just don't understand the eagerness to put a kid in prison for a non-violent crime.

Though, "swatting" and harassing is serious. Someone could have been seriously injured and it wastes the time of law enforcement that could be saving other people.

Swatting is a violent crime. You're essentially sending armed people to bust into someone's home and threaten them.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

People keep failing to notice that he swatted. This is the far more serious crime than DDOSing a service. Swatting should always result in hard jail time. You're putting lives at risk and violating peoples' homes (not to mention using up police resources).

Neato.

The charges against Kivimaki include data breaches, felony payment fraud, telecommunication harassments, and other counts relate to fraud and violations of company secrets.

They haven't tried him for the swatting thing yet, and this sentence isn't related to that, at least the article doesn't mention it besides a paragraph about one of his swatting victims. You absolutely should get jail time for swatting, and hopefully he does.

 

[Dalek]

Neato.



They haven't tried him for the swatting thing yet, and this sentence isn't related to that, at least the article doesn't mention it besides a paragraph about one of his swatting victims. You absolutely should get jail time for swatting, and hopefully he does.

But why should he be punished, am I right? Peace and love, peace and love. He's going to come out of this a changed man with a new perspective on life!

Spoiler

/sarcasm

 

[>-Baron-Spamedi-<]

Why add the punishment? It serves no purpose in making this person better. It's about making them feel pain. That's all. It's petty.

Ian Brady Myra Hindley were insane. During their times mental health was even less important than today.

Not all systems are perfect. The Finnish system doesn't make perfect systems but it works better than punishment. This is a fact. The goal is to better people.

If rehabilitation is enough for all criminals to become cuddly members of society then why doesn't Finland have zero reoffending?
The fact that Finland and the USA are two completely different countries (New York city has a larger population than Finland) with different societies makes straightforward comparisons between what works and what is possible quite stupid anyway.

Punishment is what deters people from commiting crime. If this Finnish idiot breaks the terms of his suspended sentence he will presumably be sent to jail, yes?

Well avoided. Brady and Hindley killed no one after they received their life sentences. I wasn't aware that Hindley was diagnosed insane although Brady was.

'Bettering people' is an important goal for rehabilitation services but it's not the only important aspect to sentencing of criminals.

I've met many criminals through work and many of them are remorseful. Some desperately don't want to go back to prison once they are released. Some are resigned to a life of crime and simply couldn't care less about the harm they have caused their victims.
Some quite openly mock light sentences for their crimes and find it funny when they 'get one over' on the justice system.

You seem to have a very one dimentional view of criminals, crime and punishment.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

Stupid kids.

 

[Dr. Kaos]

Back in ancient china, there was only one penalty for every single crime: Death.

Stole a chicken? Death.

Killed your friend? Death.

Cheated on your taxes? Death.

Assaulted someone? Death.

This made for a very streamlined justice system and a low crime-rate.

Rehabilitation was accomplished by separating your head from your body via sharp metal edge*

This is what we should do today.

*recidivism rates were at staggering 0.00% btw.

 

[Freshmaker]

It's a Christmas miracle!

While the DDOS may have been expensive to solve and inconvenienced a lot of people, there's really no way that a private citizen could compensate everyone in full. And it's not like it's a threat to anyone's safety, so I don't think an enormous sentence is appropriate.

DIdn't notice that it was a suspended sentence. Lame.

Swatting is one of his side activities.

 

[>-Baron-Spamedi-<]

Not all systems are perfect. The Finnish system doesn't make perfect systems but it works better than punishment. This is a fact. The goal is to better people.

Imagine if somebody was trying to steal from your parents (girlfriend, siblings - whoever you care about most) and got angry because of something they said and consequently bludgeoned them to death.

Would you be happy if that person didn't receive any jail time but instead had to attend anger management classes for two years?
Would you feel justice was served?
Would the community where you live feel safer and more secure?
Would you feel like 2 years of anger management classes were fair and equitable reparations for the person who commited murder?

Because if the only purpose that justice serves is 'making criminals better' then you would, wouldn't you?

 

[SeanTSC]

Swatting should be charged as account of Attempted Murder per person and police officer involved.

Guy got off absurdly light. Hopefully laws can be updated to match the actual severity of what Swatting really is, especially in the US. Any Swatting done to people in the US should get them extradited for charges here as well.

 

[Dreamwriter]

He was convicted of 5000 instances of cyber crime. Five THOUSAND. No punishment whatsoever, except what, one month of jail time before the trial? If you can get away with literally thousands of crimes with basically no downside to being caught, why care? After seeing this I'd bet the rest of Lizard Squad steps up their cyber attacks, now that they know that even getting caught, even announcing their guilt to the world in pride, won't really affect them.

And how is this "bettering" anyone, when he isn't being rehabilitated? Are people suggesting that that one month in jail rehabilitated him?

 

[Subpar Spatula]

If rehabilitation is enough for all criminals to become cuddly members of society then why doesn't Finland have zero reoffending?
The fact that Finland and the USA are two completely different countries (New York city has a larger population than Finland) with different societies makes straightforward comparisons between what works and what is possible quite stupid anyway.

No system is perfect. Does this mean we should go for the system that has a high recidivism rate?

Size doesn't matter.

Punishment is what deters people from commiting crime. If this Finnish idiot breaks the terms of his suspended sentence he will presumably be sent to jail, yes?

Punishment deters crime? Cite your sources.

Then he is sent to jail. Their jail is not our jail though and will have a different experience.

IWell avoided. Brady and Hindley killed no one after they received their life sentences. I wasn't aware that Hindley was diagnosed insane although Brady was.

Edit: read wrong--Brady was, you're correct. This proves punishment is better?

I'Bettering people' is an important goal for rehabilitation services but it's not the only important aspect to sentencing of criminals.

Then you don't desire to make people better. It's similar to how people congratulate Pewdiepie on his business but preface or end it with, "I don't like his videos". Barbs exist and sometimes show what you actually think.

II've met many criminals through work and many of them are remorseful. Some desperately don't want to go back to prison once they are released. Some are resigned to a life of crime and simply couldn't care less about the harm they have caused their victims.
Some quite openly mock light sentences for their crimes and find it funny when they 'get one over' on the justice system.

You seem to have a very one dimentional view of criminals, crime and punishment.

I have a more rational and factual view of criminals. Your anecdotes paint your perspective and that's going against what's studied and documented as making criminals better.

Imagine if somebody was trying to steal from your parents (girlfriend, siblings - whoever you care about most) and got angry because of something they said and consequently bludgeoned them to death.

Would you be happy if that person didn't receive any jail time but instead had to attend anger management classes for two years?
Would you feel justice was served?
Would the community where you live feel safer and more secure?
Would you feel like 2 years of anger management classes were fair and equitable reparations for the person who commited murder?

Because if the only purpose that justice serves is 'making criminals better' then you would, wouldn't you?

I would hate the person but I would understand and accept rehabilitation.

 

[>-Baron-Spamedi-<]

Back in ancient china, there was only one penalty for every single crime: Death...
.
.
.

This is what we should do today.

*recidivism rates were at staggering 0.00% btw.

Lol. See. Statistics don't lie!

Death.
It's the new rehabilitation.

 

[Amory]

The kid should spend some time in a jail cell for what he did. I'm not saying he should spend years in jail, but a few months would probably be appropriate.

This isn't just to deter him, all of these stupid brats who think they're supervillain computer hackerz need to see there are actual consequences to their actions.

 

[SeanTSC]

I would hate the person but I would understand and accept rehabilitation.

If someone *violently beat a member of your family/the person you care most about to death* and they got off with no jail time and 2 years of anger management you would "understand and accept rehabilitation"?

Bull-fucking-shit. That is the single most ludicrous and outlandish thing that anyone has ever posted on this message board. There is absolutely no way that any sane human being would understand and accept that.

 

[antonz]

lol at people pulling the he is just a kid angle. He is 17 not 10. He isn't even facing any punishment. They basically told him behave yourself now and gave him a pat on the head

 

[Subpar Spatula]

If someone *violently beat a member of your family/the person you care most about to death* and they got off with no jail time and 2 years of anger management you would "understand and accept rehabilitation"?

Bull-fucking-shit. That is the single most ludicrous and outlandish thing that anyone has ever posted on this message board. There is absolutely no way that any sane human being would understand and accept that.

I said rehabilitation. He gave poor answers / choices.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

That's a ridiculously light punishment for someone who was convicted on five-fucking-thousand counts of cybercrime. 5,000...including SWATting. WTF. Just says to me, 'don't worry if you're caught doing this shit'.

 

[Dalek]

I would hate the person but I would understand and accept rehabilitation.

And that's your NeoGaf Bullshit Post of the Year brought to you by Colgate.