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[remist]

Introspection is not going to happen, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Black people need to be responsible for their community, muslim people for theirs....ect

White people? Nah uh, that other white person has nothing to do with me.

What a bizarre post. Are you advocating for collective ethnic responsibility? Pretty gross.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

If the revised argument is that people who can legally vote and live in states that are likely to be competitive but didn't vote should still be allowed and encouraged to protest but also reminded to vote because voting and protesting both serve a purpose, then sure, I agree, but that seems to me to be such a boring and trivial argument no one would make it.

That all seemed implicit in what he was stating

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

With that said....

Definitely was part of the reason he won.

I'm not a fan of this.

If you didn't vote or voted another way because a liberal offended you with certain rhetoric or truth, they're on my shit list, without question. I'm tired of these "pure", petty people who are more than willing to wash their hands of shit they helped let happen. It's doing the opposite of what's right.

I'm also tired of people who did vote for Clinton, who knew they would, and yet still spent most of their time trying to drag her through the mud.

...But that might be going off topic.

 

[LotusHD]

Lol

 

[Kyou]

wish liberals could go more than five minutes without eating their own young

 

[Enzom21]

Lol you are in complete denial if you think the constant attacking of other progressives because they aren't in lockstep with you 100% had no effect

Just look at how hard liberals attacked Bernie supporters and Bernie himself, aka the only democratic candidate who was actually fighting for the economic leftist cause.

So people decided to abandon everything they believed in and vote for a racist demagogue because us coloreds said mean things about white people? Come on.
I love that it is never white people's fault for the things they do. "Well they only voted for a racist because you people were mean to them."
It's still somehow our fault that they did something shitty.

 

[UCBooties]

Lol you are in complete denial if you think the constant attacking of other progressives because they aren't in lockstep with you 100% had no effect

Just look at how hard liberals attacked Bernie supporters and Bernie himself, aka the only democratic candidate who was actually fighting for the economic leftist cause.

I have seen an annoying number of Trump supporters, usually young, white, and in the nerd community, talk about how this election was a repudiation of SJWs and Tumblr and feminists with purple hair. There's no doubt that some of Trump's support came from people who saw him as an antidote to political-correctness. This isn't supposition, plenty of people are happy to tell you this outright.

So yes, annoyance with the far Left was a driving factor in some peoples' decision to vote. It feels tempting to search for some kind of meaning in that, and I have absolutely gotten into fights over allyship and the dogmatism that I have encountered from feminists and anti-racists. And yet...

I have a hard time believing that these people would have been won over by a moderated tone. These are people who are willing to vote for a candidate on the premise that said candidate will hurt the people they dislike. That's a deeply troubled outlook on politics and I find it hard to believe that those people wouldn't have gravitated towards some other authoritarian bent if gamergate or the alt-right or whatever hadn't come along.

I just compared the left's fixation with perfect allies to an ouroboros earlier in this thread, but at the end of the day, if you are willing to vote against someone's rights because they annoyed you, you're a piece of shit. Any Trump voter who voted for Trump to punish people they don't like is a damaged fucking individual, and I don't think we need to be basing our political ideas around what is going to maybe win over someone that damaged and fickle.

The left needs to cultivate broader empathy. We talk a lot about it, but it's pretty clear that there are some fucked up ideas about who is actually deserving of our empathy. If we can practice what we preach, become more inclusive, become more egalitarian, and focus on raising up everyone, we'll get more support and more success. It might win over some of these people, but it might only give them fewer examples of "lol crazy feminists" to point to. I don't think winning them over is a priority, instead we should show that we have the courage of our convictions, and that there is a place for all decent people who hope for a better future in our movement.

 

[Socreges]

What's up with people trying to erase the 47% of white women who didn't vote for Trump?

Fucking infuriating. Are people that obtuse?

 

[Fuchsdh]

Just LOOK at her with her blond hair and her wine glass. It's no surprise that behind the scenes, she's just like all those Fox News bimbos she resembles! They're all the same, I tell you!

Getting annoyed by loud neighbors is racist. The more I know.

I think the reason that liberals are so prone to this kind of "in fighting" is due to the progressive nature.

By holding progressive values, you are intrinsically entering new and unexplored definitions, ones which have to be debated, and lines have to be drawn and moved.

Eh, I think it's simpler than that. Being a progressive or liberal really just means you're somewhere outside the status quo (progressivism doesn't even have to be a liberal movement; the KKK of the early 20th century was a progressive movement, and I think we'd agree that wasn't a very good thing. Same with the temperance movement.) You don't necessarily have anything in common with, say, hard-left Marxists. It's not really new or unexplored political territory, at this point we've really hashed out a spectrum of political thought. It's just people will let perfect be the enemy of good, and if you're fighting for liberal causes that's a self-defeating attitude.

By default, voting conservative is easier as it is the status quo.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

I think the reason that liberals are so prone to this kind of "in fighting" is due to the progressive nature.

By holding progressive values, you are intrinsically entering new and unexplored definitions, ones which have to be debated, and lines have to be drawn and moved.

Which is why progressiveism will fail against conservatism 95% of the time.

Two progressives can never fully agree on what they both want. All Conservatives can agree with what they DON'T want.

 

[eggandI]

Practice what you preach. The bolded attitude is *just* as dismissive of other progressives as what you're complaining about.

Haha yes yes we definitely shouldn't criticize the establishment democrat leaders. We should be attacking voters instead and making more lines of division between us

What a genius idea

 

[Syriel]

Except...this seems to be happening internally. It's counterproductive.

I completely agree.

I was just pointing out that this type of stuff is exactly what benefits Trump and company. It's what's in their playbook.

If democrats and independents are busy fighting each other, they won't be fighting Trump and the GOP.

 

[CrocMother]

This is just such a bizarre way of thinking and it really frustrates me. Glad to see I'm not alone in this thread.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Man you guys are so getting 8 years of Trump.

It seems like its going to be that way.

 

[International Iron Man]

They should have called the march "The White Moderate Woman March"

And seeing their white moderate defense force on here is comical. Ive heard stories from black women who did go and guess what? They left just as disappointed in white people and women as they came, because it served as a pat on the back white feminism lovefest.

 

[TheTylerRob]

Just LOOK at her with her blond hair and her wine glass. It's no surprise that behind the scenes, she's just like all those Fox News bimbos she resembles! They're all the same, I tell you!

Nothing like some good ol fashioned stereotypes am I right?

 

[cackhyena]

While internet arguments can be exercises in ego stroking, there have been plenty of productive conversations in the wake of the election. Debate is healthy, especially among like minds.

That's true, but more and more I find the Left to be having a winner take all mentality to arguments. I'm feeling more and more alienated with the side I am a part of and it's fucking strange. There's less nuance to these arguments, it seems. Just vilification if you aren't on the "right side".

 

[Count Dookkake]

Massa likes it when we fight each other.

 

[Infinite]

surely the best way to win people over to your side is to generalize their beliefs and demean them

I don't want conditional allies on myside. Do some introspection.

 

[CrocMother]

They should have called the march "The White Moderate Woman March"

And seeing their white moderate defense force on here is comical. Ive heard stories from black women who did go and guess what? They left just as disappointed in white people and women as they came, because it served as a pat on the back white feminism lovefest.

Yooo like wtf?? I just can't anymore on this forum.

 

[LotusHD]

So people decided to abandon everything they believed in and vote for a racist demagogue because us coloreds said mean things about white people? Come on.

Yea, I never really understood this. I'll admit that there is a sort of (usually justified imo) condescension that occurs at times when speaking up about the issues that are important to minorities and what not. And we need to work on that, myself included. But like damn, if you're that quick to vote for Trump of all people just because your feelings got hurt or w/e, well damn, how much of an ally were you to begin with...

 

[Plum]

So people decided to abandon everything they believed in and vote for a racist demagogue because us coloreds said mean things about white people? Come on.

Nope, but people might have decided to not vote or side with the "They're both the same!" narrative when they see liberals generalizing and demeaning white people's intelligence, as your post, and many in this thread, have done.

 

[ZackieChan]

I think the reason that liberals are so prone to this kind of "in fighting" is due to the progressive nature.

By holding progressive values, you are intrinsically entering new and unexplored definitions, ones which have to be debated, and lines have to be drawn and moved.

Is this like saying that Batman very Superman was so good it was above most people's heads?

Exactly. And all of this happening at a time when the Democratic Party is the weakest and most irrelevant it has been in a fucking generation. You'd think this would be exactly the time where people would look inwards and admit that "hey maybe this isn't helpful"

Pretty much.

Well then by all means enlighten as to what you meant.

Treating your allies as if they're no different from those who voted for Trump is a good way to turn them off from wanting to go the extra mile to continue to be active allies. Not "one tweet" or one sign or whatever your reductionist reaction to my comment was. But you got your hot take in, so congratulations.

 

[Codeblue]

While reflection is healthy, aggressively excluding or demonizing people based on statistics only hurts the cause.

We shouldn't ask people to take responsibility for any actions but their own.

 

[E92 M3]

That sign is obnoxious and stupid. Anyone who wants to march should be able to.

 

[Trey]

wish liberals could go more than five minutes without eating their own young

sorry a diverse and far ranging political party dealing with both historical and emergent issues and the built in inertia of progress can't always agree with each other.

We shouldn't ask people to take responsibility for any actions but their own.

we can and should.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

That sign is obnoxious and stupid. Anyone who wants to march should be able to.

Was that sign telling white women not to march?

 

[WiiredShawn]

I'm all for shaking out the neoliberals, calling out the center-right dems who are still trying to yank out all leftist thought in the party by the roots, but I'm not sure what there is to be gained by attacking a massive demographic for going for Trump by a few percentage points.

You solve this by not treating white women in general as assured allies (something Democrats were often guilty of this election), by reaching out to the extremely huge numbers who are, or who might be potential allies.

You only harm leftist causes by walking up to people who are 99.9% sure to be on the 47% side and haranguing them for something some other people did.

You need to go after the people who consider white women to be a default base of support, if you're going to go after anybody. Because those are the people who present distorted views of politics, and lead to flawed activism, flawed campaigning, that doesn't properly respect the reality of a given demographic.

On the other hand, you simply can't ask the left to unite completely, without question. Not when the Democratic party has been under center-right leadership structures since the 90's. There has to be a clash here, I just don't think this specific demographic focus on white women is going to help much.

This post is far too sensible for where this thread is going.

 

[fart town usa]

So people decided to abandon everything they believed in and vote for a racist demagogue because us coloreds said mean things about white people? Come on.

I can't speak for who you're quoting but I think they meant the Democratic establishment base attacking those who weren't in lock step with Hillary but vote democrat in general all the same.

 

[junpei]

Just LOOK at her with her blond hair and her wine glass. It's no surprise that behind the scenes, she's just like all those Fox News bimbos she resembles! They're all the same, I tell you!

It has more to do with fake allies than fox news. . the point is that a white women is still white and she has privilege that may blind her to the realities of the world.

 

[Dash_Riprock]

sorry a diverse and far ranging political party dealing with both historical and emergent issues and the built in inertia of progress can't always agree with each other.

Those words will be such a great comfort when Trump is reelected.

 

[Alligatorjandro]

Instead of being mad at the sign we should ask why the majority voted for trump.

 

[goodfella]

They should have called the march "The White Moderate Woman March"

And seeing their white moderate defense force on here is comical. Ive heard stories from black women who did go and guess what? They left just as disappointed in white people and women as they came, because it served as a pat on the back white feminism lovefest.

I'm not sure I follow, what did your friends expect and why exactly were they disappointed?

 

[ahoyhoy]

While reflection is healthy, aggressively excluding or demonizing people based on statistics only hurts the cause.

We shouldn't ask people to take responsibility for any actions but their own.

I understand the desperation and frustration of the person who made the sign, but using the same tactics as your opponents to lump the members of a demographic together is never a sound option, especially when the margins are as thin as 3%.

 

[GrizzleBoy]

I think the reason that liberals are so prone to this kind of "in fighting" is due to the progressive nature.

By holding progressive values, you are intrinsically entering new and unexplored definitions, ones which have to be debated, and lines have to be drawn and moved.

Exactly.

Im getting quite tired of the "infighting" rhetoric.

The maybe 2% of all dems in America actually talking about this subject are not "the left".

The maybe less than 1% of dems who are making points like "white women voted for trump, so why are white women marching?" Are not "the left".


And yes, people are going to discuss things. People in the same political leaning will have differences. Differences that need to be discussed to be better understood in order to have an actual fucking platform, or is the left's only platform allowed to be "but Trump is bad, it's your moral duty to fall in line and tow the line!"? How did that work out for Hillary in terms of getting people to join her?

 

[Cagey]

wish liberals could go more than five minutes without eating their own young

When your enemies won't engage you and you really just want to throw down verbally, invent new enemies.

 

[Not]

Shoot, liberals lasted like 2 days of coming together against a common foe before we remembered we should be getting mad at each other first and foremost

Let's shoot for longer next time

 

[Crocodile]

So is this topic going to become like the White Fragility topic Part 2?

I mean I 100% believe most of the women who marched this weekend did not vote for Trump and I personally wouldn't have pointed my ire at them like that tweet. That doesn't change the FACT that most white women voted for Trump. That has to be pointed out, internalized and discussed. If you (I'm speaking in general) did your part on November 8 and voted for Clinton, stop getting butthurt when someone points out the factual (this is the important part) actions of most people who look like you and lets work together to stymie the Trump administration.

 

[Unspeakable Evil]

Instead of being mad at the sign we should ask why the majority voted for trump.

Going by this thread White Women got their feelings hurt...

 

[Poor GRIMES]

Yooo like wtf?? I just can't anymore on this forum.

Yeah, I simply can't deal at PoC opinions, man

We always have to handhold people that are apparently allied with us

 

[fart town usa]

I'm all for shaking out the neoliberals, calling out the center-right dems who are still trying to yank out all leftist thought in the party by the roots, but I'm not sure what there is to be gained by attacking a massive demographic for going for Trump by a few percentage points.

You solve this by not treating white women in general as assured allies (something Democrats were often guilty of this election), by reaching out to the extremely huge numbers who are, or who might be potential allies.

You only harm leftist causes by walking up to people who are 99.9% sure to be on the 47% side and haranguing them for something some other people did.

You need to go after the people who consider white women to be a default base of support, if you're going to go after anybody. Because those are the people who present distorted views of politics, and lead to flawed activism, flawed campaigning, that doesn't properly respect the reality of a given demographic.

On the other hand, you simply can't ask the left to unite completely, without question. Not when the Democratic party has been under center-right leadership structures since the 90's. There has to be a clash here, I just don't think this specific demographic focus on white women is going to help much.

This post is far too sensible for where this thread is going.

Fucking beautiful. This, this right here. Well done Sir. Well done.

 

[Vermillion]

All people need to unite against what is happening not divide like intended.

It's like when people say, "Oh NeoGAF is XYZ" because a few people did or say something.

That sign and that tweet are deeply obnoxious.

Man you guys are so getting 8 years of Trump.

Ding

Ding

Ding

 

[eggandI]

So people decided to abandon everything they believed in and vote for a racist demagogue because us coloreds said mean things about white people? Come on.
I love that it is never white people's fault for the things they do. "Well they only voted for a racist because you people were mean to them."

Someone already told you it wasn't the only reason, but a contributing factor. Good job failing to be even remotely introspective about the very thing people in this thread are criticizing liberals like the ones in the OP for.

 

[Somnid]

I don't want conditional allies on myside. Do some introspection.

Some of the most effective movements in all of history are based on allying whoever is available to promote a cause at the given time whether or not it continue perpetually. It's just provably effective, no opinion necessary.

 

[Derwind]

What a bizarre post. Are you advocating for collective ethnic responsibility? Pretty gross.

Nah, that's just me addressing a fact, what you want to make of is up to you. I'm not here to do any of your heavy lifting, I already have my shit to deal with.

Good luck.

 

[Irminsul]

We're talking about something that is a fact as opposed to a subject that crops up the moment a terrorist attack occurs or murder of a minority.

The majority of White voters voted for Trump, that includes white women. Either you can grow from that or you can take it as an affront to your sensibilities.

I'm neither American nor a woman, but now I'm really interested how one could "grow from that", under the assumption that I'd obvoiously voted for Clinton if I'm part of the march. What exactly did I do wrong? I can only vote for myself and try to convince others. That's it.

Or do you mean the collective you? As in, because I share a fucking skin colour with a lot of people I neither know nor want to have anything to do with, I'm sort-of to blame for the outcome? Fuck no I'm not and you don't get to tell me I am. I mean, how could I? I'm not even responsible in any way for how my relatives voted, so why would that be the case for complete strangers.

Well, or you can prepare for eight years of Trump. Have fun.

 

[E92 M3]

Was that sign telling white women not to march?

It was an antagonizing sign. Nothing more to it.

 

[Empyrean Heaven]

What a fucking joke. This shit is why we'll get 8 years of this clown. Stop eating your goddamn tail and focus.

Bingo. Republicans are more united than they ever been. Democrats have zero focus, zero mission, and zero battle plan, and arguing over who deserves it more is the problem. Why can't men stand up for women's rights? Why can't whites stand up for civil rights for blacks and latinos? Why can't Chrisitians and Jews stand up for muslim rights? Why can't straight people stand up for LGBTQ rights? Why not?

 

[Staccat0]

So people decided to abandon everything they believed in and vote for a racist demagogue because us coloreds said mean things about white people? Come on.
I love that it is never white people's fault for the things they do. "Well they only voted for a racist because you people were mean to them."

In such a close election (population wise) I think it's undeniable that a considerable number of people who happily voted for Obama came to eventually like Trump's "I'm so Anti-PC cuz these fucking SJWs have gone mad" rhetoric. We have otherwise liberal people complaining about it here every day of the week.

What we choose to do with that information is up in the air I guess. Not to say people should placate them, BUT somebody will. I know that for sure.

Maybe getting people to vote FOR something will work better than the clusterfuck of 2016? I dunno. I literally don't know.

 

[benicillin]

So is this topic going to become like the White Fragility topic Part 2?

I mean I 100% believe most of the women who marched this weekend did not vote for Trump and I personally wouldn't have pointed my ire at them like that tweet. That doesn't change the FACT that most white women voted for Trump. That has to be pointed out, internalized and discussed. If you (I'm speaking in general) did your part on November 8 and voted for Clinton, stop getting butthurt when someone points out the factual (this is the important part) actions of most people who look like you and lets work together to stymie the Trump administration.

Yeah see this is a good post, but how do we reconcile that the white women who voted for Trump might have done it because of their religion, or their regional area, or any other number of reasons. Like I don't think that a white atheist woman in New York is gonna be able to internalize, figure out and discuss why a white evangelical christian in Kansas voted for Trump.