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[RustyNails]

Still not confirmed...waiting to find out after maghrib.

 

[The Internet]

Its one of the most refreshing feelings ever. I usually bitch and moan at the beginning of the month but by the end I'm sad that its over. It's like a mental reset.

100% the same, I get emotional when Eid is around because it's such an accomplishment do go through of 30 days of struggle then to be so appreciative of what you have. The last few years have been my favorite fast, you have to feel the struggle and temptation.

 

[Omiee]

In netherlands they are saying saudia is beginning Wednesday.

 

[Zapages]

my local mosque has announced that they will be starting Ramadan on Wednesday... Whereas another local mosque is starting Ramadan tomorrow. Why is there confusion.

 

[Ashes]

Yep. Ramadan starts Wednesday for us. UK.
Taraweh Tuesday night.

 

[liger05]

my local mosque has announced that they will be starting Ramadan on Wednesday... Whereas another local mosque is starting Ramadan tomorrow. Why is there confusion.

If the moon hasnt be sighted I dont see how they can start tomorrow.

 

[kobashi100]

I'm going to be working out, but luckily I am cutting so it should go hand in hand. Still, lifting weights is gonna be rough as shit. I took this last week as rest.

Bring it on.

Damn bro.. I am giving up gym for the month. Dont see how I can train while fasting, no water means no training for me.

anyway ramadan mubarak to all brothers and sisters.

 

[SouSouRocket]

This is my first Ramadan trying to exercise, I'm going to be doing zero impact yoga (DDP Yoga) so I'm hoping that it will sort of keep me in shape without being too demanding on my body. I'm so mentally ready for Ramadan I felt guilty eating during the day even though it's not time yet! Some years it takes you by surprise but I've been sort of keenly aware it's coming all year, maybe because it coincides with bar prep this year.

 

[Desty]

I've never worked out during fasting. I may this year. Do any of you work out during the month? If so, what's the schedule like?

My friend observes Ramadan and he worked out extremely early in the morning (5 am I think) during that time. He got little sleep during the whole time.

 

[F#A#Oo]

my local mosque has announced that they will be starting Ramadan on Wednesday... Whereas another local mosque is starting Ramadan tomorrow. Why is there confusion.

It boils down to 18 degrees calculation vs 12/15 degrees...scholars are petty or who is right/wrong so it will never get solved.

 

[Terra Firma]

It boils down to 18 degrees calculation vs 12/15 degrees...scholars are petty or who is right/wrong so it will never get solved.

No, that is Isha timing, not moon sighting. And scholars allow 18 and 15 degrees with some being stringent upon 18 degrees; these are valid differences as they are based upon the historically disputed beginning times of Isha, which are the shafaq al-abyadh and shafaq al-ahmar (basically referring to when the redness in the sky disappears or when the whiteness in the sky disappears; the former correlating with 15, and the latter with 18 degrees).

Those who say 12 degrees do so merely because of convenience - there is nothing hard and fast from fiqh that allows 12 degrees.

The confusion regarding moonsighting occurs based on whether one follows Saudi Arabia for moonsighting or whether one relies on local sighting.

The majority opinion has always been "global sighting" - i.e. if the moon is sighted anywhere on earth, then everyone should observe the fast the next day. So, if even a single country around the world claims to have seen the moon, then people have to fast the next day, regardless of where on earth they are.

But, a lot of people doubt Saudi Arabia's reliability. For example, if the moon isn't sighted in India/Pakistan, is not sighted in South Africa or the UK, but is miraculously sighted in Saudi Arabia, something is suspect. That is why a lot of scholars recommend a compromise, which is regional sighting. So, if you're in North America, if the moon is sighted anywhere in the West, whether it be North or South America, then we should follow that.

And to make this issue even more problematic, if the moon IS sighted somewhere and Saudi Arabia says that they haven't seen the moon, Saudi will stick to its claim of not sighting the moon. I remember a few years ago when Nigeria sighted the moon and said that Ramadhan (or Eid, I don't remember which) was the next day, but Saudi Arabia stuck to its claim of non-sighting.

Even astronomers have stated that Saudi Arabia has been mostly wrong about its moonsighting claims.

But we should all follow whatever our localities dictate and not separate ourselves from the rest of the community.

 

[vareon]

This is my first Ramadan trying to exercise, I'm going to be doing zero impact yoga (DDP Yoga) so I'm hoping that it will sort of keep me in shape without being too demanding on my body. I'm so mentally ready for Ramadan I felt guilty eating during the day even though it's not time yet! Some years it takes you by surprise but I've been sort of keenly aware it's coming all year, maybe because it coincides with bar prep this year.

This sounds interesting.

 

[victreeb3l]

100% the same, I get emotional when Eid is around because it's such an accomplishment do go through of 30 days of struggle then to be so appreciative of what you have. The last few years have been my favorite fast, you have to feel the struggle and temptation.

Exactly. It feels so good to do something really hard, then doing it over and over again. Its kind of like meditation. Difficult and annoying at first and you dont know why you're doing it in the first place. But after a while its like its clicks and, damn, I feel so good.

I also notice just how much food and drink advertisements there are in the world. I dont care for that at all but when I fast, thats all I notice. Fast food, cart food, drinks, signs and temptations everywhere. It makes me feel even worse about people who are disadvantaged and or/homeless. Its like its not bad enough theyre in that situation, they have to constantly get barraged with the things they cant have, a lot which are vital for survival. Feels bad man /rant

 

[cdkee]

My mosque usually just picks a date (I think goes along with ICNA or ISNA) and then just goes with it.

I just go with my mosque.

 

[F#A#Oo]

No, that is Isha timing, not moon sighting. And scholars allow 18 and 15 degrees with some being stringent upon 18 degrees; these are valid differences as they are based upon the historically disputed beginning times of Isha, which are the shafaq al-abyadh and shafaq al-ahmar (basically referring to when the redness in the sky disappears or when the whiteness in the sky disappears; the former correlating with 15, and the latter with 18 degrees).

Those who say 12 degrees do so merely because of convenience - there is nothing hard and fast from fiqh that allows 12 degrees.

The confusion regarding moonsighting occurs based on whether one follows Saudi Arabia for moonsighting or whether one relies on local sighting.

The majority opinion has always been "global sighting" - i.e. if the moon is sighted anywhere on earth, then everyone should observe the fast the next day. So, if even a single country around the world claims to have seen the moon, then people have to fast the next day, regardless of where on earth they are.

But, a lot of people doubt Saudi Arabia's reliability. For example, if the moon isn't sighted in India/Pakistan, is not sighted in South Africa or the UK, but is miraculously sighted in Saudi Arabia, something is suspect. That is why a lot of scholars recommend a compromise, which is regional sighting. So, if you're in North America, if the moon is sighted anywhere in the West, whether it be North or South America, then we should follow that.

And to make this issue even more problematic, if the moon IS sighted somewhere and Saudi Arabia says that they haven't seen the moon, Saudi will stick to its claim of not sighting the moon. I remember a few years ago when Nigeria sighted the moon and said that Ramadhan (or Eid, I don't remember which) was the next day, but Saudi Arabia stuck to its claim of non-sighting.

Even astronomers have stated that Saudi Arabia has been mostly wrong about its moonsighting claims.

But we should all follow whatever our localities dictate and not separate ourselves from the rest of the community.

Jazak Allah Khayr brother.

 

[Mothman91]

Yup, my area is a bit divided. Some are saying follow Saudi which is Wednesday or follow the community which is tomorrow. I say follow the community.

 

[RustyNails]

Well, ISNA confirmed Ramadan beginning tonight

The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) is pleased to announce that the holy fasting month of Ramadan will start in North America on Tuesday, July 9, 2013. ISNA’s Majlis Ash-Shura has resolved to follow the position of the Fiqh Council of North America, which is to use the methodology of calculations for determining the Islamic lunar months for North America.

On the basis of this method, the dates of Ramadan and Eid Al-Fitr for the year 1434 AH are established as follows:

1st of Ramadan will be on Tuesday, July 9, 2013
1st of Shawwal will be on Thursday, August 8, 2013

Thing is they base their confirmation on mathematical calculations rather than confirming visually through the use of naked-eye/telescope. My mosque still has not confirmed anything.

 

[effzee]

No, that is Isha timing, not moon sighting. And scholars allow 18 and 15 degrees with some being stringent upon 18 degrees; these are valid differences as they are based upon the historically disputed beginning times of Isha, which are the shafaq al-abyadh and shafaq al-ahmar (basically referring to when the redness in the sky disappears or when the whiteness in the sky disappears; the former correlating with 15, and the latter with 18 degrees).

Those who say 12 degrees do so merely because of convenience - there is nothing hard and fast from fiqh that allows 12 degrees.

The confusion regarding moonsighting occurs based on whether one follows Saudi Arabia for moonsighting or whether one relies on local sighting.

The majority opinion has always been "global sighting" - i.e. if the moon is sighted anywhere on earth, then everyone should observe the fast the next day. So, if even a single country around the world claims to have seen the moon, then people have to fast the next day, regardless of where on earth they are.

But, a lot of people doubt Saudi Arabia's reliability. For example, if the moon isn't sighted in India/Pakistan, is not sighted in South Africa or the UK, but is miraculously sighted in Saudi Arabia, something is suspect. That is why a lot of scholars recommend a compromise, which is regional sighting. So, if you're in North America, if the moon is sighted anywhere in the West, whether it be North or South America, then we should follow that.

And to make this issue even more problematic, if the moon IS sighted somewhere and Saudi Arabia says that they haven't seen the moon, Saudi will stick to its claim of not sighting the moon. I remember a few years ago when Nigeria sighted the moon and said that Ramadhan (or Eid, I don't remember which) was the next day, but Saudi Arabia stuck to its claim of non-sighting.

Even astronomers have stated that Saudi Arabia has been mostly wrong about its moonsighting claims.

But we should all follow whatever our localities dictate and not separate ourselves from the rest of the community.

Thanks for the thorough write up. Explains a lot but still I wonder since we do now follow scientifically calculated prayer times, understand the cycles and orbits of both the planet and the moon, why then is moon sighting needed or confusing?

My family for the past 5 years or so has been following the calculated lunar cycle, which ISNA also follows. Does that not make the most sense?

Some other family members and friends argue with me that we can't do that and have to follow our local mosque. Problem is living in NYC we don't necessarily have a local mosque either since every few blocks you have a small mosque. There is no centralized community.

Even according to the moon sighting website, here in the US Ramadan should start tomorrow the 9th:

http://moonsighting.com/ramadan.html

 

[RustyNails]

Chicago Hilal twitter says still no sighting

9:00 PM CDT: The meeting has resumed once again and we are contacting our representatives throughout North America. There have been no sightings reported.

Thanks for the thorough write up. Explains a lot but still I wonder since we do now follow scientifically calculated prayer times, understand the cycles and orbits of both the planet and the moon, why then is moon sighting needed or confusing?

My family for the past 5 years or so has been following the calculated lunar cycle, which ISNA also follows. Does that not make the most sense?

Some other family members and friends argue with me that we can't do that and have to follow our local mosque. Problem is living in NYC we don't necessarily have a local mosque either since every few blocks you have a small mosque. There is no centralized community.

Even according to the moon sighting website, here in the US Ramadan should start tomorrow the 9th:

http://moonsighting.com/ramadan.html

I would suggest going with what the greater New York Tri-State area is going with. Nothing wrong with ISNA, but going with community is lot more ideal in my opinion.

 

[Ashes]

I get that moonsighting.com doesn't follow moon sightings but relies on math. But where do you put point 0? By starting on the 9th they follow the solar calender, because you won't be able to see any moon from anyone on the planet earth on the 8th.

 

[effzee]

Chicago Hilal twitter says still no sighting


I would suggest going with what the greater New York Tri-State area is going with. Nothing wrong with ISNA, but going with community is lot more ideal in my opinion.

Again there is no consensus. I'll stick with the calculations. We follow them for everything else and we know enough about the orbits and rotations of the earth and moon.

I always understood it as moon sighting visually was simply the only way to figure out back in the early days, and not the religiously prescribed way for all time. The tools we have no allow us to make accurate calculations.

 

[phosphor112]

I'll quote myself.

Yep. It was impossible to see the moon for it to be today (in US/midwest)

8th----
Sunset 9:15 p.m.
Moonset 9:17 p.m.
Literally a 2 minute window to spot... so obviously not tomorrow.

9th----
Sunset 9:15 p.m.
Moonset 9:52 p.m.

This has a much larger "window" to view the moon, so InshaAllah it's the 10th.

Ramadan Mubarak brothers and sisters.

EDIT: Actually, it'll have to be the 10th. The 11th would create a 31 day Sha'ban... I think.. And 31 day months are impossible for the lunar calender.

It's literally impossible to see it tonight in NA. These top brass in Saudi Arabia can't just make up whatever when the rules clearly state you HAVE to see the moon. And you can't tonight.

 

[ginger ninja]

i thought i will not have to deal with this after coming to US, but i was wrong i guess :V
this is even more confusing than pakistan, where we have one group that follows saudi and the rest of the country that just goes with local observation

 

[MPW]

eastern US/Canada - fasting starts on July 10th?

 

[phosphor112]

eastern US/Canada - fasting starts on July 10th?

inshaAllah.

 

[daftstar]

Yea the Hilal Committee of Toronto is saying July 10th too...

Again there is no consensus. I'll stick with the calculations. We follow them for everything else and we know enough about the orbits and rotations of the earth and moon.

I always understood it as moon sighting visually was simply the only way to figure out back in the early days, and not the religiously prescribed way for all time. The tools we have no allow us to make accurate calculations.

I agree with this as well. Shouldn't the world be united and consistent for these things? Does the Qur'an or hadiths even state that the moon must be sighted with the naked eye?

 

[survivor]

eastern US/Canada - fasting starts on July 10th?

Ottawa here and that seems the case for us.

 

[RustyNails]

Yep its Isha no confirmation from masjid. Looking forward to taraweeh tomorrow.

 

[phosphor112]

Yea the Hilal Committee of Toronto is saying July 10th too...



I agree with this as well. Shouldn't the world be united and consistent for these things? Does the Qur'an or hadiths even state that the moon must be sighted with the naked eye?

No, but it must be sighted. And there must be 2 witnesses I believe.

 

[FullMetalx117]

first day of fasting will likely be on wednesday.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

I'm doing intermittent fasting as part of my diet and just did my first 24 hour fast today. Ate dinner last night the nothing until dinner tonight. The hardest part was lunch at work because your body clock tells you to eat, but once past that it wasn't too bad. I worked out when I got home then ate. Not sure I could do it daily though like you all. I'm planning two days a week.

It was kind of nice not having to worry about food for the day though.

 

[effzee]

No, but it must be sighted. And there must be 2 witnesses I believe.

I am under the impression that the sighting is simply what was done only because it was the only way to do it back in the day.

Are you saying that the religious method prescribed is sighting and sighting alone? Because if we follow calculations for prayer times and calendars in general, why not for Ramadan?

ISNA seems to believe as I do. They already announced the start of Ramadan as tomorrow, the 9th.

 

[effzee]

I'm doing intermittent fasting as part of my diet and just did my first 24 hour fast today. Ate dinner last night the nothing until dinner tonight. The hardest part was lunch at work because your body clock tells you to eat, but once past that it wasn't too bad. I worked out when I got home then ate. Not sure I could do it daily though like you all. I'm planning two days a week.

It was kind of nice not having to worry about food for the day though.

Yup. There are definitely some times when your body is used to eating where it becomes a little difficult. I have been intermittent fasting for the past 6 months myself but I do the 16 hour fast (with water and black coffee only) and then 8 hours of feeding.

Ramadan is about the same time for fasting but of course no water or coffee. For me once I get past 1-2pm I am good.

 

[cdkee]

I am under the impression that the sighting is simply what was done only because it was the only way to do it back in the day.

Are you saying that the religious method prescribed is sighting and sighting alone? Because if we follow calculations for prayer times and calendars in general, why not for Ramadan?

ISNA seems to believe as I do. They already announced the start of Ramadan as tomorrow, the 9th.

That is my belief as well. Luckily my local mosque (MCA Bay AreaGAF) follows ISNA calculations.

 

[crazy monkey]

Wednesday for us as well.

 

[Nutter]

Why muslims dont follow the lunar calendar is beyond me. Why are we still stuck on "seeing" the moon in 2013!

 

[I-hate-u]

Ramadan Mubarak to everyone.

 

[phosphor112]

Why muslims dont follow the lunar calendar is beyond me. Why are we still stuck on "seeing" the moon in 2013!

1) That's what is prescribed for us.

2) Scientifically and mathematically, even though the new moon has started, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see the moon. The way the months have been done for hundreds of years has been to start a month a couple days after the new moon, when it is finally visible. Or scientifically visible. Why change now? You can STILL use science and math, and you can use it to allow one to see when the most realistic day will be the start of a month.

Hadith + Science = best answer, IMO.

I'm not just choosing archaic "eye ballin' it" method, and I'm not doing a strictly scientific method... otherwise we would have started fasting on MONDAY.

 

[effzee]

1) That's what is prescribed for us.

2) Scientifically and mathematically, even though the new moon has started, it is IMPOSSIBLE to see the moon. The way the months have been done for hundreds of years has been to start a month a couple days after the new moon, when it is finally visible. Or scientifically visible. Why change now? You can STILL use science and math, and you can use it to allow one to see when the most realistic day will be the start of a month.

Hadith + Science = best answer, IMO.

I'm not just choosing archaic "eye ballin' it" method, and I'm not doing a strictly scientific method... otherwise we would have started fasting on MONDAY.

Well I don't want anyone to assume I am arguing. I am just trying to understand why its done the various ways.

Reading up the articles on the Fiqh Council of North America, I find their methods valid:

"On the basis of this method the dates of Ramadan and Eidul Fitr for the year 1434 AH are established as follows:

1st of Ramadan will be on Tuesday, July 9, 2013

1st of Shawwal will be on Thursday, August 8, 2013

Ramadan 1434 AH:

The Astronomical New Moon is on July 8, 2013 (Monday) at 7:14 Universal Time (10:14 a.m. Makkah time). Sunset at Makkah on July 8 is at 7:07 p.m., while moonset is at 7:08 p.m. Moon is born before sunset in Makkah and moonset is after sunset. Therefore first day of Ramadan is Tuesday, July 9, insha'Allah. First Tarawih prayer will be on Monday night.

Eid ul-Fitr 1434 AH:

The Astronomical New Moon is on August 6, 2013 (Tuesday) at 21:51 Universal Time. (12:51 a.m. on August 7, Makkah time). On Tuesday, August 6, sunset at Makkah is 6:57 p.m. and moonset is 6:29 p.m. Moon is born after sunset in Makkah and moon sets before sunset. On Wednesday, August 7, sunset at Makkah is 6:56 p.m. and moonset is at 7:07 p.m. Moon is born before sunset, while moonset is after sunset. Therefore, first day of Shawwal, i.e., Eid ul-Fitr is Thursday, August 8, insha'Allah.

May Allah (swt) keep us on the right path, and accept our fasting and prayers. Ameen. "

Does that make it any clearer? Their point is that the Islamic way of determining a new moon can be confirmed using calculations.

FCNA uses Makkah al-Mukarrama as a conventional point and takes the position that the conjunction must take place before sunset in Makkah and moon must set after sunset in Makkah.

Either way what's done is done. We started today and Ramadan Mubarak to all those starting today or tomorrow. Everyone have a great safe and prosperous month.

 

[shanshan310]

I have a Moroccan friend staying with me at the moment. He was saying how nice it was being able to do it in winter (5pm sundown and 15-20 degree days) while on holiday from work. I can't imagine how I'd be able to focus fasting while working/ doing sport/ generally living my everyday life.

 

[Celegus]

Props to those who can do it, my body would never last that long without food. I get the shakes after 4 hours. (I'm also like 2% body fat)

 

[phosphor112]

Well I don't want anyone to assume I am arguing. I am just trying to understand why its done the various ways.

Reading up the articles on the Fiqh Council of North America, I find their methods valid:



Does that make it any clearer? Their point is that the Islamic way of determining a new moon can be confirmed using calculations.

[/b]

Either way what's done is done. We started today and Ramadan Mubarak to all those starting today or tomorrow. Everyone have a great safe and prosperous month.

The problem here is that we aren't in Makkah (at least, I'm not).

Here is an excerpt.

However, the hadith narrated by Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi and Nasa’i rejects argues against a sighting being binding on distant places. Thus states that Kurayb, who traveled to Syria encountered the start of Ramadan there on a Friday, upon return to Medina, informed Ibn Abbas that he had seen the crescent-moon on the night of Friday, and that the people in Syria, including Muawiyah the governor, had fasted on Friday. Ibn Abbas replied that they (in Medina) had seen the crescent-moon on Saturday, and that they would not stop fasting until they either saw it again, or had completed thirty days. Kurayb asked, "Will you not suffice with the sighting of Muawiyah?” Ibn Abbas replied, "No, that is how the Messenger of Allah (pbuh) commanded us.”

Also, we need to consider that just as Muslims around the world will not pray simultaneously, rather each area will pray based on the movement of the sun in their area. Thus, how could they start and end fasting simultaneously.

http://www.islamicity.com/ramadan/moonsighting_vs_moonfighting.shtml

Props to those who can do it, my body would never last that long without food. I get the shakes after 4 hours. (I'm also like 2% body fat)

You can still fast. =].

I'm hypoglycemic, and I've gotten kidney stones the past 3 times I've "fully" fasted.

Because of that. I've kept water in my fast. Obstained from food, and kept glucose tablets near me, just in case. You can still fast from food and the other things.

Also, I keep drinking water to my "normal" amount. I don't fill up on water to curb hunger.

 

[shanshan310]

Props to those who can do it, my body would never last that long without food. I get the shakes after 4 hours. (I'm also like 2% body fat)

I think it's more water that would be my biggest concern.

 

[leadbelly]

Not something I have ever had to endure. I think it would be hard to go without water in this weather. :/

 

[Jotamide]

I think there should be a PSA of not posting tasty food pictures during Ramadan. My stats partner last year had it rough with all the class eating dinner during the lecture. :S

 

[RustyNails]

Well I don't want anyone to assume I am arguing. I am just trying to understand why its done the various ways.

Reading up the articles on the Fiqh Council of North America, I find their methods valid:



Does that make it any clearer? Their point is that the Islamic way of determining a new moon can be confirmed using calculations.

[/b]

Either way what's done is done. We started today and Ramadan Mubarak to all those starting today or tomorrow. Everyone have a great safe and prosperous month.

Theres absolutely no argument or anything...both fasting methods are valid and we are all on same team. But think about using Makkah as the sighting region to start Ramadan. Do you think Muslims say in Syria were able to get confirmation for Ramadan in one night from Makkah 1000 years ago? No, so historically Muslims relied on their own regional sighting confirmations. We are just following the tradition thats all. Its not like our fast or your fast is invalid. Its all valid.

Edit: just saw phosphors post. I am baffled we both mentioned Syria haha

 

[effzee]

Theres absolutely no argument or anything...both fasting methods are valid and we are all on same team. But think about using Makkah as the sighting region to start Ramadan. Do you think Muslims say in Syria were able to get confirmation for Ramadan in one night from Makkah 1000 years ago? No, so historically Muslims relied on their own regional sighting confirmations. We are just following the tradition thats all. Its not like our fast or your fast is invalid. Its all valid.

Edit: just saw phosphors post. I am baffled we both mentioned Syria haha

Yes historically relied but only because those were the only tools available.

Whether the moon is sighted or not by human eyes, we know of the moon's cycle and orbit. To me it boils down to some people believing the actual act of moon sighting is a religious verdict when in reality, just like prayer times, all we are told from the Quran is to fast and pray without actual detailed instructions on how to calculate the exact times. Historically it made sense to go bye the visual sighting but I do wish now with all the technology and proven understanding of the moon available we could move towards a standard.

 

[phosphor112]

Theres absolutely no argument or anything...both fasting methods are valid and we are all on same team. But think about using Makkah as the sighting region to start Ramadan. Do you think Muslims say in Syria were able to get confirmation for Ramadan in one night from Makkah 1000 years ago? No, so historically Muslims relied on their own regional sighting confirmations. We are just following the tradition thats all. Its not like our fast or your fast is invalid. Its all valid.

Edit: just saw phosphors post. I am baffled we both mentioned Syria haha

Thank you for saying it so much more elegantly lol. =P

 

[phosphor112]

Yes historically relied but only because those were the only tools available.

Whether the moon is sighted or not by human eyes, we know of the moon's cycle and orbit. To me it boils down to some people believing the actual act of moon sighting is a religious verdict when in reality, just like prayer times, all we are told from the Quran is to fast and pray without actual detailed instructions on how to calculate the exact times. Historically it made sense to go bye the visual sighting but I do wish now with all the technology and proven understanding of the moon available we could move towards a standard.

Why not still use the Hadith AND Science as standard? I already showed you above, that we can calculate the first day that it can be seen. The post you showed for the for Mecca uses a similar method, but it would still be difficult to physically see.

If we went by which day was just the full moon, we'd be fasting on Monday. And that's obviously wrong.

woops. double post.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Fasting starts tomorrow in Malaysia. Happy fasting my brothers and sisters!