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Digital Foundry: Microsoft to unlock more GPU power for Xbox One developers

You are suggesting that not using a mobile phone and only using FOSS is somehow transporting us back 30 years, how is it doing that exactly?.
Well you'd have to use no Internet too because if we're all using open source software, technically it would be even easier for the government to decipher the traffic thru the Internet.


Funny you reached that inevitable conclusion because on the previous page you were wondering how people are cool with cell phones and webcams.
A guy was worried about Kinect spying on him.
I was pointing out that there are many existing devices that have similar capabilities to Kinect and suggesting a few.
Of course using data for targeted ads is different then a phone or webcam.
But the ability to spy on users isn't different, and there's no reason to worry about the government or anyone using Kinect to spy on you than any other device.
 

Bsigg12

Member
Beta tested in the present?

I suppose. If I lived in Seattle with him I would be playing it too.... The all inclusive Microsoft beta must have kicked off this week. He works in the Windows Phone part of the Entertainment group.

Also sorry for the off topic post
 

KoopaTheCasual

Junior Member
Come on i wouldn't be surprised that NSA already has made deals with Intel, AMD, Microsoft and Sony to have baked in back doors in the chips themselves.
Three of those are american. And Sony is using AMD tech so yeah. Pre the NSA leaks i would have had the same concerns now yeah im too reliant on USA made
products. Even opensource projects can't even be save AMD and Intel chip design aren't public properties god knows how much they can configure in the microcode.

Deals with them might happen, yes, but the Kinect's mandate to be connected was never really explained appropriately, and seemed completely unnecessary. I'm not saying "The NSA is spying on you through Kinect, watch out!" but you can bet your butt cheeks that's the sensationalist story the media would have ran with. It was a wise call by MS to allow it to be disconnected.
 

KidBeta

Junior Member
Well you'd have to use no Internet too because if we're all using open source software, technically it would be even easier for the government to decipher the traffic thru the Internet.

Actually it would probably be harder, when something is FOSS it generally has a lot more scrutiny then a closed source solution does, finding flaws, bugs and other mistakes/errors/weakness a lot quicker and publicly altering/showing people what is wrong when something happens.

Just because you have access to the way it communicates does not help you in any way with a good rigours encryption scheme that you can not exploit. There is a good reason the american government considered strong encryption ammunition with regards to exporting.
 
Actually it would probably be harder, when something is FOSS it generally has a lot more scrutiny then a closed source solution does, finding flaws, bugs and other mistakes/errors/weakness a lot quicker and publicly altering/showing people what is wrong when something happens.

Just because you have access to the way it communicates does not help you in any way with a good rigours encryption scheme that you can not exploit.
Okay sure, but how do you know the company isn't feeding your data to the government?
You couldn't do online banking, online shopping, social networking, etc.
My point is where does the conspiracy end?
There's always going to be another loop hole that the government can get your information from if they really wanted to.

The problem is the government spying, not large companies or the Internet or closed source software or mobile phones.
The solution is the government not spying. Not the end of large companies or the end of the Internet or all open source software or no mobile phones.

That is why I thought it was silly.
And if you disagree with me still, then maybe you just don't think the government can be stopped. Which might be true. But then we have a much larger problem than just privacy.
Or if that's not why you disagree then I don't know and you probably wouldn't understand why I found it strange.
 

Bsigg12

Member
Leaksssss. Microsoft ninjas gunna catch you!!

Haha I'm not worried. If they are allowing Windows Phone engineers to sign in on non Dev Xbox Live, then I think they're past the point of caring who shows who has one. We know Albert and other members of the Xbox team have had their units for a while now so they must be trying to slowly crank up server load for the Xbox One portion of Live.

Also, maybe the reappearance of Albert on here, and my buddy getting his console, are signs that Microsoft are getting ready to show something off? I don't think they would allow the rest of the Microsoft employees to have a unit if the UI/OS wasn't far enough along and in the alpha stage still. I don't know though, I don't know what the NDA includes.
 

Metzhara

Member
wait a minute, if they are giving the 10% back, won't it mean Kinect won't run?

Kinectless console confirmed?!?

Possibly they have a TCR that allows for deactivating SNAP in some cases? Perhaps Kinect disabling? I think there are more options than just removing Kinect, though it is the most common suspicion. -Adam
 

Tabular

Banned
There are a few ways we can think about the theoretical 10% increase in gpu resources.

1 Start with the raw paper specs: 1.31 - 10% + 10% which of course makes the result look unimpressive. Who cares? PS4 still has 40% more specs on paper right? And yes at launch it's really 56% and probably best case scenario is a 45% difference once the GPU resource gets returned to game allocation. Again why would Microsoft bother talking about this?

2 Start with the report from devs that stated PS4 has 50% better performance in games. This I can imagine is the bigger problem for Microsoft. And this information is factoring in the 10% usage to Kinect and snap that PS4 doesn't need. If this can be reduced it makes Xbone look better (reducing real world performance to hopefully just a 40% difference).

So out of the two I think the PR is tackling the second idea and saying the difference you see in an actual Xbox game vs a PS4 game at launch will diminish. People in this thread are mostly thinking about it from the raw specs point of view when M$ wants you to see it from a strictly visual point of view. The games will look better down the road than what's been shown and a current disadvantage will Diminish.

Off topic: I wonder if the flexible amount of ram resources Sony allows the developer to access (512 MB of the GDDR5) pertains to the PlayStation 4 Eye? If so, is Microsoft going to give a similar choice to developers to give the somewhat costly resources of the camera back to developers to use as they see fit? Just a thought.
 

skdoo

Banned
I cant be the only one that this biometric stuff scares right??

I know of at least ten people that won't even consider the XB1 because of the Kinect camera and privacy concerns. They are all getting a PS4 instead. The NSA articles really came out at the very worst time for MS.
 

SHADES

Member
Hey NeoGAF... have you seen misterxmedia site? LOL

I read that insider BS claiming the XBone will be a 3Tflop machine & nearly pissed myself, whatever meds that guys on I'll take a dozen to go.

Edit* JesusHchrist, now claiming GAF is owned by Sony, oh boy.
 

Caayn

Member
All those efforts to include Kinect in the price, all compromises made to the hardware to reduce the price and cater to that specific functionality and Microsoft doesn't even have a plan to earn money off ads based on biometrics? I believe it as much as you do.
That's why the Xbox One is €/$100 more expensive than the PS4, you pay extra for the Kinect.
 

nib95

Banned
Yes.

But let's say Sony took the same reservation, in absolute terms, as on XB1.

That would be - using flops as the metric - 1.71Tflops.

1.71 : 1.18 = ~45% difference, up from 1.31 : 1.84 = ~40% difference

If Sony takes half the reserve XB1 does, that would be:

1.77 : 1.18 = ~50% difference

I reckon it'd be somewhere between those two scenarios.

Of course, devs already knew about this, but we didn't so much. We heard these rumours but I think it's the first time we've had it out of the horse's mouth (?) And having it confirmed again post-upclock is significant, one might have thought they might reduce the reserve in light of that.

Whilst true, that does not account for the ram differences which also favour the PS4 heavily. Admittedly I doubt that bandwidth difference (DDR3 vs GDDR5) will count for as much early on, as devs are still currently exploring for ways to efficiently use all that extra ram.
 

Caayn

Member
Do you think that the NFL deal was paid from charity revenue?
No from investment money. MS wants the NFL deal to translate into a killer-app for the Xbox One, so they invest money into that. For the same reason that most consoles(for example PS3, PS4) have been sold under their production price, does that directly mean that Sony is going to mine your data and sell it? (Rhetorical question)
 

FranXico

Member
Deals with them might happen, yes, but the Kinect's mandate to be connected was never really explained appropriately, and seemed completely unnecessary. I'm not saying "The NSA is spying on you through Kinect, watch out!" but you can bet your butt cheeks that's the sensationalist story the media would have ran with. It was a wise call by MS to allow it to be disconnected.

Two words: targeted advertising.
 

Curufinwe

Member
He doesn't like Sony as a company.

Your opinion. One that I do not share, as my X1 Day One Edition is paid in full, whereas I have no interest in buying a PS4 at all.

You assume that just because the PS4 is $100 less, that it will be the clear winner, but you fail to comprehend that people just may not like Sony as a company. The only Sony exclusive to even catch my eye is Uncharted, and I refuse to purchase another system solely for that franchise, after looking at the dust my Vita gathered until I finally decided to trade it to upgrade my OG 3DS to an XL.

Personally, I'm just done with Sony. Their recent "we care about the gamers" is nothing than pandering, offensive condescension, and stupid gamers are eating it up with a spoon.
 
Talk about off-topic.

I'm pretty sure the guy has some kind of mental disorder.

I don't often go into that territory, but I have to agree. Some sort of psychosis. The guy has to be insane in some manner.

EDIT: I checked his new post... Jesus. I've never seen so many downright idiots in one place.
 

Skeff

Member
So you're accusing Albert Penello of lying straight into your face? That's a pretty big accusation without any hard data to back that up. Especially after he already explained his actions.

"at 30gb/s the xb1 has 3x more cache coherent bandwidth than the PS4"

I seem to recall that post on Neogaf, considering the PS4 has a minimum of 20gb/s cache coherent bandwidth and likely 30gb/s with onion(+), I'd say he isn't exactly truthful?
 
He doesn't like Sony as a company.
Shocking.

If it seems like there's never any bad news about the PS4 on here... Maybe it's because the news has been overwhelmingly positive? And the opposite is true for the XB1. So yeah, forgive us for not making shit up to please you/match your worldview, I guess.
 

nib95

Banned
Surprised jawbreaker hasn't been axed yet with those kind of hivemind/generalising criticisms of GAF. If his jaded persecution complex driven conclusions lead him to feel that way, why is he still posting here exactly?
 

angrygnat

Member
I am just a casual observer of Digital Foundry over the last year or so, but in that time, I have noticed a bias. They aren't really bashing the PS3/4, but they seem really dismissive. They snort and scoff through PS reviews and articles, picking apart any and everything they can. On the other hand, any slight perceived improvement or change in direction in the MS area is touted as a big deal. A game changer. This tiny incremental change is being presented as if its unleashing all this hidden power. Unshackling the XB1, to allow it to accomplish feats that were previously impossible in its current state. While any increase in power is welcome, these bumps have become so commonplace that it kind of muddies the message. Really counter productive. Instead of adding a bulletpoint for the console, it ends up just being noise.
 

Freki

Member
Surprised jawbreaker hasn't been axed yet with those kind of hivemind/generalising criticisms of GAF. If his jaded persecution complex driven conclusions lead him to feel that way, why is he still posting here exactly?

You jinxed it...

Jawabreaker
Banned
 
Come on i wouldn't be surprised that NSA already has made deals with Intel, AMD, Microsoft and Sony to have baked in back doors in the chips themselves.
Three of those are american. And Sony is using AMD tech so yeah. Pre the NSA leaks i would have had the same concerns now yeah im too reliant on USA made
products. Even opensource projects can't even be save AMD and Intel chip design aren't public properties god knows how much they can configure in the microcode.
Haha, a "Sony too" this late in the game? Come on, son!

Also... the bodycount increaseth. Holy fuck. These guys don't stand a chance against NeoGAF's kickass moderating staff. I picture it as the moderating staff being a Dynasty Warriors main character with the junior trolls and shills being the enemy foot soldiers.

I'll leave it up to someone with much better gif skills to make a Bish-as-Lu Bu gif. Make it happen, GAF!
 

FeiRR

Banned
No from investment money. MS wants the NFL deal to translate into a killer-app for the Xbox One, so they invest money into that. For the same reason that most consoles(for example PS3, PS4) have been sold under their production price, does that directly mean that Sony is going to mine your data and sell it? (Rhetorical question)
Right. And now they need that money back, with a return, so every future X1 user has to pay for it, including those who will never be able to benefit, just like Kinect with most languages. Any reason to pay for something you can't even use?

Sony doesn't have a biometric device and reduced prices benefit everybody. Your comparison is faulty. Do they sell my gaming preferences to anybody? No, I forbade them. It's explicitly stated in the PSN account settings.
 

Caayn

Member
Right. And now they need that money back, with a return, so every future X1 user has to pay for it, including those who will never be able to benefit, just like Kinect with most languages. Any reason to pay for something you can't even use?

Sony doesn't have a biometric device and reduced prices benefit everybody. Your comparison is faulty. Do they sell my gaming preferences to anybody? No, I forbade them. It's explicitly stated in the PSN account settings.
Are you for real? They make the money back by people who are going to buy the Xbox One for the NFL deal. Those people are most likely going to buy a game or two and pay for XBL Gold. I see plenty of ways to get their money back( without selling peoples data). How do you think that Sony covers their €/$60 loss on every PS4 sold? Both MS and Sony invest money to get people to buy their platforms. And when people have bought those platforms there's a big chance that they will spend more money on said platform. Think a little here will ya.

You can unplug the Kinect and just like with the playstation you'll need to opt-in for things like data gathering (voice for example).
 

qream

Member
Well I think there's two things you're asking. NuAds by definition is simply interactive advertising done on the platform. Using the functions of the console and Kinect to interact vs. just watching a spot. There's nothing particularly interesting happening here unless you're in the advertising business, and we've done a few on Xbox 360 today.

What I think you're asking about is an interview done earlier in the year where someone was talking about how some of the new Xbox One Kinect features *could* be used in advertising - since we can see expressions, engagement, etc. and how that might be used to target advertising. This is the point that seems to draw some controversy.

First - nobody is working on that. We have a lot more interesting and pressing things to dedicate time towards. It was an interview done speculatively, and I'm not aware of any active work in this space.

Second - if something like that ever happened, you can be sure it wouldn't happen without the user having control over it. Period.

Two examples of how we deal with similar things today:

First, Kinect can recognize your face and log you in automatically. There could be some cool features we could enable if we stored that data in the cloud, like being able to be auto-recognized at a friend's. I get asked for that feature a lot. But, for privacy reasons, your facial data doesn't leave the console.

Second: You'll see us do some things around Skype that freezes the video when Skype is not in focus (meaning, it's not the primary app). If you go back to the home screen, or launch another app, we actually stop the video stream. We do this so the user can't even ACCIDENTALLY have the video stream going on in the background.

I'll say this - we take a lot of heat around stuff we've done and I can roll with it. Some of it is deserved. But preventing Kinect from being used inappropriately is something the team takes very seriously.

Hope that helps.


I'm glad privacy is being taken seriously.
As a consumer though, it's still a bit hard to trust corporations with private data because of what we now know about the NSA and other government agencies gaining access to it.
Thank you for you response.
 
It's unfortunate that someone with such a bad post history has a similar username to mine. I don't want any of your baggage, Jawabreaker!
 
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