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[cw_sasuke]

I'm not sure what exactly the NX hardware will end up being, or if and what different SKUs may be planned. Ultimately I think everyone agrees that unifying the software library is good, but making one fit all hardware isn't good. I think we've learned that the hardware that works in one region, may not work in another.

Don't know about the hardware comment... Nintendo handheld always sold better than their home console counterparts. And this gen we saw the reason of picking up a home console got even smaller with more classic console type games being able to run on the 3DS.

So focusing on the portable NX first makes sense, since their portables have been more popular regardless of the market.

This doesn't mean that they can't or shouldn't have homeconsole only SKU in place down the line for people that don't care about portables. Without the screen and co. they could probably sell a small box for quite cheap.

 

[Roto Prime]

August will you fucking END

LOL so bloody funny, the NX will be the end of us all!

 

[MacTag]

I feel like people expecting the dock to boost performance are completely missing the point of the hybrid. The point is to unify Nintendo's software into a single platform. You can't really consider it a single platform if they have "console" specs and weaker "handheld" specs to work with. All of their development for consoles games would be bogged down and limited with parallel development to make sure it still runs in handheld mode. They'd also have to double up on assets if they want a gorgeous console look and a compromised handheld look.

They kind of already tried that with Smash 4 and Hyrule Warriors being on both 3DS and Wii U. Remember how Smash 4 lost Ice Climbers because the 3DS didn't have processing power for an AI partner? Remember how Hyrule Warriors ran fine on the Wii U but was laggy on New 3DS and damn near unplayable on old 3DS?

I can only see this working as a portable with TV out, and I'm totally fine with that.

It's not really dual development though, it's just spec tweaking. A better comparison than 3DS/WiiU would be 3DS/n3DS where some games improve framerate, improve texture res, improve lighting, add 3D, increase enemy counts, improve draw distance, expand data creation, etc.

And many developers already do this or will soon do this on other platforms anyway (PC, Android, iOS, PS4/Neo, Xbox One/S/Scorpio, etc)

 

[brandonh83]

LOL so bloody funny, the NX will be the end of us all!

Seriously, with NX and Neo very likely being revealed in September, August has been a slog from Hobbiton to the gaping asshole of Mordor.

 

[Akki]

You only need to look at the wasteland of the Japanese market to see how a console that is also a successor to the 3DS will get more support than a straight successor to the Wii U.

I also think people are sleeping on possible western third party support depending on just how powerful the NX is. It's not going to get the vast majority of games but let me use COD as an example.

During the DS/Wii generation Activision continued to make unique DS versions and Wii ports. They tried on the Wii U but didn't get sales results to make it viable and the development costs associated with unique 3DS versions meant making separate versions was a no-go but if Activision could take those Wii U ports and put them on 3DS they probably would have. That's not to say COD will definitely be there but if Activision can do downgraded ports(the Wii versions lacked killcam and cut entire scenes if they couldn't run on Wii) I wouldn't rule it out.

I agree. Third Party support is important and AAA western games need to be at least technically feasible.

I´ve been thinking a lot about this recently. At first I asked myself why did Nintendo chose the hybrid route?

The simple answer is because they are not able to support their handheld and home consoles at the time. But they could have build 2 distinct devices (NX console and NX handheld) that use the same architecture and all Nintendo first party games would be available on both systems.

Now let´s go one step further. Why is the rumored handheld part of the hybrid so powerful? Why is there a clear departure from the usual pattern? Nintendo always used cheap parts and the handheld was never about strong hardware power but this time it´s the most ambitious hardware Nintendo has ever used in a handheld by far.

The reason is the NX hybrid does everything what a traditional console does (at a lower console performance level). It will not only run Nintendo console games but AAA western games aswell. Nintendo knows they stil have a huge console audience and therefore the NX has to be an appealing console aswell. I doubt they will abandon their console userbase.

Nintendo has obviously analyzed why the 3ds didn´t reach ds sales numbers even though the first party lineup is arguably stronger than the ds one and why the Wii U is such a massive failure. Hopefully they came to the conclusion that the gimmicks failed to deliver and their software is not as strong as it was 10 or 15 years ago. After that they investigated why the PS4 and XBO sell far better than the Wii U and why the PS4 has a huge lead over the XBO. The result should be the same. First Party software is not important, the huge AAA third party games sell consoles.

IMO they decided to make a hybrid because they were able to fulfill the following goals.

1) Console games run on the handheld at a respectable performance.
2) Console part of the NX is not too limited because it has mobile parts and stil appeals to the console audience.
3) Third party games run on the handheld and while docked.

I know some will say that AAA games are not possible and there is no audience on Nintendo system. First some insiders said the NX could easily run XBO/PS4 ports (OsirisBlack) or is nearly as strong as the XBO (Emily Rogers), this fits my analysis.The second part is right there is no audience for Fifa or CoD on Nintendo consoles but Nintendo wants to make a mainstream product. Just reaching the 3ds sales numbers is probably below their expectations. They certainly want to sell more than 80, 100 or even 150 million units. This is not possible if the NX is only a first party box, they have to reach people who are not primarily interested in Nintendo franchises. If there´s no Fifa millions in europe will not even consider buying this console. They need to have these games and offering a unique way to play (gaming on the go and at home) is a great idea. I´m not saying this will be a huge success and but they could grow and cultivate this audience slowly over a long period of time. Even if this fails the strong combined first party lineup will be the safety net.

Did they learn their lesson and made the right conclusion? I´m optimistic.

 

[eifer]

"We're not building the next version of the Wii or Wii U." -Kimishima, Dec. 2015

NX rumors: It's totally going to be a Wii U gamepad with break away Wii remotes on each side, guys!"

Too many people: "I totally believe this. Let's make mock-ups!"

the level of devotion in this thread to the idea it's going to be a portable wii u is hilarious.

 

[NateDrake]

the level of devotion in this thread to the idea it's going to be a portable wii u is hilarious.

No one has said such a thing.

 

[andythinkpad]

The rumored nx basically says to me that nintendo is ceding the console market to ps4/xb1. They perform way better in the handheld space in Japan and even the us.

The dock is seemingly a compromise for the Nintendo fan who still wants to play games on the tv. Other than that, this is Nintendo's baby and it isn't meant to compete with ps4 and xb1 and that's fine.

That said, even if it's got about the same power as a wii u in a handheld, that's still enough to play most games out there that aren't big budget AAA things.

I don't know about that. The WiiU to PS3XB1 power difference is similar to NX to PS4XB2 power difference.

I think Nintendo is asking their portable customer to give up more traditional portable games in support of the NX.

IMO Nintendo's long term problem is getting steady number of young users to join the Nintendo ecosystem.

 

[antonz]

NX rumored as it is has a big advantage over prior Nintendo hardware and that is the ability to use all the latest engines. The fact Unreal has become such a juggernaut to the point of even in Japan is a huge thing for Nintendo.

It is honestly similar with Frostbite. The system will handle it well enough and EA has worked quite actively to ensure Frostbite works on mobile.

Obviously any UE4 or Frostbite titles will have their sacrifices in texture quality etc. but the simple fact is NX will be able to get that stuff if the Publishers want to make the effort. Which is a huge improvement from Wii U where it simply could not run the engines at even a shit level it was beyond shit

 

[MuchoMalo]

I feel like people expecting the dock to boost performance are completely missing the point of the hybrid. The point is to unify Nintendo's software into a single platform. You can't really consider it a single platform if they have "console" specs and weaker "handheld" specs to work with. All of their development for consoles games would be bogged down and limited with parallel development to make sure it still runs in handheld mode. They'd also have to double up on assets if they want a gorgeous console look and a compromised handheld look.

They kind of already tried that with Smash 4 and Hyrule Warriors being on both 3DS and Wii U. Remember how Smash 4 lost Ice Climbers because the 3DS didn't have processing power for an AI partner? Remember how Hyrule Warriors ran fine on the Wii U but was laggy on New 3DS and damn near unplayable on old 3DS?

I can only see this working as a portable with TV out, and I'm totally fine with that.

Even if it means 720p max for the entire generation? Smash 5 running at a lower resolution than Smash 4?

 

[diaspora]

NX rumored as it is has a big advantage over prior Nintendo hardware and that is the ability to use all the latest engines. The fact Unreal has become such a juggernaut to the point of even in Japan is a huge thing for Nintendo.

It is honestly similar with Frostbite. The system will handle it well enough and EA has worked quite actively to ensure Frostbite works on mobile.

Obviously any UE4 or Frostbite titles will have their sacrifices in texture quality etc. but the simple fact is NX will be able to get that stuff if the Publishers want to make the effort. Which is a huge improvement from Wii U where it simply could not run the engines at even a shit level it was beyond shit

The 360 and PS3 had Frostbite for BF4 and DAI.

 

[Shiggy]

NX rumored as it is has a big advantage over prior Nintendo hardware and that is the ability to use all the latest engines. The fact Unreal has become such a juggernaut to the point of even in Japan is a huge thing for Nintendo.

It is honestly similar with Frostbite. The system will handle it well enough and EA has worked quite actively to ensure Frostbite works on mobile.

Obviously any UE4 or Frostbite titles will have their sacrifices in texture quality etc. but the simple fact is NX will be able to get that stuff if the Publishers want to make the effort. Which is a huge improvement from Wii U where it simply could not run the engines at even a shit level it was beyond shit

Do even any developers outside of EA have access to Frostbite?

 

[diaspora]

Do even any developers outside of EA have access to Frostbite?

It's EA's engine so... no.

 

[mugurumakensei]

I feel like people expecting the dock to boost performance are completely missing the point of the hybrid. The point is to unify Nintendo's software into a single platform. You can't really consider it a single platform if they have "console" specs and weaker "handheld" specs to work with. All of their development for consoles games would be bogged down and limited with parallel development to make sure it still runs in handheld mode. They'd also have to double up on assets if they want a gorgeous console look and a compromised handheld look.

actually, there's been a lot of advancement in making engines that automatically scale resolution, effects, etc in games based on resources available and a performance profile (targeting a specific framerate and/or resolution). Forza Apex can do this on PC. If you design your engine/game in that fashion, you don't have to do things twice. Also, we know multiple performance profiles are going to exist by the SCD patent.

 

[antonz]

The 360 and PS3 had Frostbite for BF4 and DAI.

Wii U had a woefully underpowered CPU which was its huge issue. GPU wise they had a Superior edge but it was completely bottlenecked by the CPU. Frostbite has always been a heavy CPU dependent engine.

In the end even Miyamoto has expressed disappointment in the CPU choice of the Wii U

 

[eifer]

No one has said such a thing.

A portable with a touch screen tablet and traditionally controller scheme attached to it. i.e. a portable Wii U

 

[atbigelow]

NX rumored as it is has a big advantage over prior Nintendo hardware and that is the ability to use all the latest engines. The fact Unreal has become such a juggernaut to the point of even in Japan is a huge thing for Nintendo.

It is honestly similar with Frostbite. The system will handle it well enough and EA has worked quite actively to ensure Frostbite works on mobile.

Obviously any UE4 or Frostbite titles will have their sacrifices in texture quality etc. but the simple fact is NX will be able to get that stuff if the Publishers want to make the effort. Which is a huge improvement from Wii U where it simply could not run the engines at even a shit level it was beyond shit

The Frostbite issues were probably caused by the Wii U's CPU. The GPU was plenty capable, but the CPU held it back. Especially when compared with the PS3 and 360.

An X1 is going to pretty much demolish the Wii U CPU.

 

[Shiggy]

It's EA's engine so... no.

Well, the Unreal engine is Epic Games' engine, so what? But if only EA uses Frostbite, I don't really see why the NX hardware would make any difference when EA currently is rather sceptic about NX.

 

[Atheerios]

A portable with a touch screen tablet and traditionally controller scheme attached to it. i.e. a portable Wii U

You just described a handheld. You are talking as if handhelds never existed.

 

[Instro]

It will be interesting to see if there is additional hardware coming beyond this particular device. If you look back to the presentation Iwata gave a couple years ago, when Nintendo first starting talking about their next hardware devices, and it was pretty clear that the plan was for more than a single device going forward. "Family of devices", the handheld and console being like brothers, etc.

 

[James Scott]

A portable with a touch screen tablet and traditionally controller scheme attached to it. i.e. a portable Wii U

...so a portable device with a screen on it...like the GBA, the Vita, and a bunch of other things. Wii U didn't fail because it had buttons, lol

Well, the Unreal engine is Epic Games' engine, so what? But if only EA uses Frostbite, I don't really see why the NX hardware would make any difference when EA currently is rather sceptic about NX.

Frostbite runs on mobile and on PS360 IIRC, a big issue it had on Wii U was the CPU which I think we can assume it's better this time around.
But the biggest thing keeping EA from NX will probably be EA

 

[diaspora]

Well, the Unreal engine is Epic Games' engine, so what? But if only EA uses Frostbite, I don't really see why the NX hardware would make any difference when EA currently is rather sceptic about NX.

UE4 is by design made for use by third parties much like UE in general, Frostbite has never been that, and was never designed to be that, and doesn't have a history being being that.

 

[antonz]

Well, the Unreal engine is Epic Games' engine, so what? But if only EA uses Frostbite, I don't really see why the NX hardware would make any difference when EA currently is rather sceptic about NX.

Sure they are sceptic and really have no reason to be super optimistic. The difference is NX can at least handle their engine now so any games that do not come will be down to business decisions. Wii U could not run the engine EA has switched all development too. Nintendo basically exiled themselves from EA with the Wii U

 

[NateDrake]

A portable with a touch screen tablet and traditionally controller scheme attached to it. i.e. a portable Wii U

So a Vita, Game Gear, GBA, GB, DS, 3DS, Tiger Electronics, etc... are all Wii U devices?

 

[eifer]

You just described a handheld. You are talking as if handhelds never existed.

A handheld with detachable controllers, a large screen, and a dock to make it a home console too? That's not a normal handheld. Or a home console.

 

[James Scott]

Even if it means 720p max for the entire generation? Smash 5 running at a lower resolution than Smash 4?

Would be a big upgrade from 240p on Smash For 3DS, but yeah. If the NX is more powerful than Wii U it would be odd if it couldn't handle a port of Smash 4 at 1080p since Wii U can. Maybe they could have it render at 1080p but only display at 720p on the handheld? No clue what they'd do there
I'm really interested in seeing how Smash 4 and BoTW fair on NX.

A handheld with detachable controllers, a large screen, and a dock to make it a home console too? That's not a normal handheld. Or a home console.

It's still a handheld. You can detach and attack controls to the 3DS too and having a big screen doesn't really take away from that.

 

[NateDrake]

A handheld with detachable controllers, a large screen, and a dock to make it a home console too? That's not a normal handheld. Or a home console.

Nor anything like a Wii U.

 

[diaspora]

Sure they are sceptic and really have no reason to be super optimistic. The difference is NX can at least handle their engine now so any games that do not come will be down to business decisions. Wii U could not run the engine EA has switched all development too. Nintendo basically exiled themselves from EA with the Wii U

I frankly don't think Tegra has much of a future either. Better than the Wii U maybe but that's a low ass bar to pass.

 

[Oregano]

Getting Unreal Engine 4 on Nintendo's portable will probably be of some importance to Epic as well because Japanese portable developers are probably their biggest untapped market left.

 

[wonderful103]

Sure they are sceptic and really have no reason to be super optimistic. The difference is NX can at least handle their engine now so any games that do not come will be down to business decisions. Wii U could not run the engine EA has switched all development too. Nintendo basically exiled themselves from EA with the Wii U

Wii U could run Frostbite or UE4 or any other engine that someone would want to adapt to it. There is zero business case to do so except for maybe that one Kickstarter that was funded to port that UE4 indie title over.

I frankly don't think Tegra has much of a future either. Better than the Wii U maybe but that's a low ass bar to pass.

Yeah neither nvidia GPUs not ARM CPUs really have a place in the market.

 

[MuchoMalo]

Would be a big upgrade from 240p on Smash For 3DS, but yeah. If the NX is more powerful than Wii U it would be odd if it couldn't handle a port of Smash 4 at 1080p since Wii U can. Maybe they could have it render at 1080p but only display at 720p on the handheld? No clue what they'd do there
I'm really interested in seeing how Smash 4 and BoTW fair on NX.

It's still a handheld. You can detach and attack controls to the 3DS too and having a big screen doesn't really take away from that.

But his concern is having two sets of assets.

 

[Shiggy]

Frostbite runs on mobile and on PS360 IIRC, a big issue it had on Wii U was the CPU which I think we can assume it's better this time around.
But the biggest thing keeping EA from NX will probably be EA

Main problem was the lack of business opportunity. Had it been economically feasible, I'm pretty sure we would've seen more ports despite the technological difficulties.

UE4 is by design made for use by third parties much like UE in general, Frostbite has never been that, and was never designed to be that, and doesn't have a history being being that.

That's what I was asking about. Could have been that they extended their business and made it available to other developers. That would have made it plausible that they port the engine to NX. But without that, there's very little incentive to do it.

Sure they are sceptic and really have no reason to be super optimistic. The difference is NX can at least handle their engine now so any games that do not come will be down to business decisions. Wii U could not run the engine EA has switched all development too. Nintendo basically exiled themselves from EA with the Wii U

I am pretty sure they could've got it running on Wii U. Developers ported their engines to Wii. With much trouble, but it still worked somehow. It was a business decision.

 

[James Scott]

Getting Unreal Engine 4 on Nintendo's portable will probably be of some importance to Epic as well because Japanese portable developers are probably their biggest untapped market left.

I imagine Square Enix alone would make UE4 worth porting to NX. Having DX12/Vulkan will make it feature set compatible with a lot of their games and NVIDIA work hard with Epic as seen here with this K1 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkJ5PupShfk

 

[antonz]

Developer's could port to Wii because most of the Engines in that era were still heavily modified engine from the PS2 era. Yes the Wii U could run frostbite but it ran like total dog shit and that was not going to change. The Wii U CPU sucks.

No one is going to buy a Frostbite game on Wii U that ran at like 10 fps.

 

[Hermii]

Even if it means 720p max for the entire generation? Smash 5 running at a lower resolution than Smash 4?

From what I get, even the worst case scenario is significantly above Wii U, so Smash should run 1080p just fine.

 

[James Scott]

Main problem was the lack of business opportunity. Had it been economically feasible, I'm pretty sure we would've seen more ports despite the technological difficulties.

Kind of hope Nintendo convinces them that porting the engine is worth it at least for Fifa/Madden. Those are probably the only titles that would make a sales difference for NX as a portable version of both of those games would probably entice fans.

 

[Oregano]

I imagine Square Enix alone would make UE4 worth porting to NX. Having DX12/Vulkan will make it feature set compatible with a lot of their games and NVIDIA work hard with Epic as seen here with this K1 video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkJ5PupShfk

Yeah, UE4 already runs on the Tegra chips so it should be straight forward.

 

[shira]

No one is going to buy a Frostbite game on Wii U that ran at like 10 fps.

 

[Plinko]

Developer's could port to Wii because most of the Engines in that era were still heavily modified engine from the PS2 era. Yes the Wii U could run frostbite but it ran like total dog shit and that was not going to change. The Wii U CPU sucks.

No one is going to buy a Frostbite game on Wii U that ran at like 10 fps.

Yep, and Nintendo acknowledged this already (I believe Miyamoto specifically). I don't think they're making that mistake again.

 

[takriel]

Yep, and Nintendo acknowledged this already (I believe Miyamoto specifically). I don't think they're making that mistake again.

It's a pretty dumb mistake to make in the first place, not gonna lie. I mean what the fuck were they thinking?

 

[Holepunch]

It's not really dual development though, it's just spec tweaking. A better comparison than 3DS/WiiU would be 3DS/n3DS where some games improve framerate, improve texture res, improve lighting, add 3D, increase enemy counts, improve draw distance, expand data creation, etc.

And many developers already do this or will soon do this on other platforms anyway (PC, Android, iOS, PS4/Neo, Xbox One/S/Scorpio, etc)

Even if it means 720p max for the entire generation? Smash 5 running at a lower resolution than Smash 4?

actually, there's been a lot of advancement in making engines that automatically scale resolution, effects, etc in games based on resources available and a performance profile (targeting a specific framerate and/or resolution). Forza Apex can do this on PC. If you design your engine/game in that fashion, you don't have to do things twice. Also, we know multiple performance profiles are going to exist by the SCD patent.

To generalize all this, I think you're all probably right in that it'll probably get a small boost while docked. My personal bet is that it'll draw more power and maybe turn on a fan so that it outputs at 1080p while docked. I was more addressing the people hoping the dock holds hardware in it and it'll suddenly be punching at Xbone/PS4 levels.

 

[Richie]

Something that intrigues me is how they're going to go about additional controllers this time around. If we're going with a screen-based controller again, it may be a repeat of the Gamepad situation, where you had this unique controller for one player and the others had to make do with Pro Controllers and Wiimotes. Eeeh.

 

[Vena]

To generalize all this, I think you're all probably right in that it'll probably get a small boost while docked. My personal bet is that it'll draw more power and maybe turn on a fan so that it outputs at 1080p while docked. I was more addressing the people hoping the dock holds hardware in it and it'll suddenly be punching at Xbone/PS4 levels.

It can drop the screen power when docked, so that actually opens up fairly sizable heat and power overhead, as well as the obvious ability to draw non-battery limited power.

All things considered, I'd be surprised if Nintendo didn't implement one or all of the above mentioned advantages for docked mode even in the dumbest of dumb docks for the stationary experience.

 

[Chittagong]

Something that intrigues me is how they're going to go about additional controllers this time around. If we're going with a screen-based controller again, it may be a repeat of the Gamepad situation, where you had this unique controller for one player and the others had to make do with Pro Controllers and Wiimotes. Eeeh.

The impression I'm getting is exactly the opposite, everyone has a Wiimote in multiplayer, and Gamepad style in single player, no?

 

[Father_Brain]

It's a pretty dumb mistake to make in the first place, not gonna lie. I mean what the fuck were they thinking?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the underpowered CPU was necessitated by the need (or rather, what Nintendo wrongly perceived as the need) to maintain Wii BC, combined with the extremely low TDP.

Even without targeting XB1/PS4 performance, they could easily have made a cheap box that comfortably outperformed PS3/360 in every respect if they hadn't had such woefully misguided design priorities.

 

[Peterc]

A portable with a touch screen tablet and traditionally controller scheme attached to it. i.e. a portable Wii U

You know the gb gba nds 3ds could be connected on tv?

It would be more a wiiu system if it was a console and you have to play mostly with the screen while connected on tv. But thats not the case.


Beside that, there are so more things that the nx have that doesn't even comes close to wiiu.


Ps1 ps2 ps3 ps4 has much more similarity to each other.

 

[pooh]

I can't see any way that the NX will be able to fully satisfy console-only consumers without having a distinct console form factor with improved specs. It's great for guys like me who want to buy a console but can't really justify something a gaming device that I can't take with me on my commute. But the idea of just having the handheld really sounds like they're just giving up on getting the traditional Western consumer; I don't think that sounds good to anyone, Nintendo included.

An SCD that would basically be an external, off-the-shelf graphics chip could potentially match or get close to PS4K specs, without being prohibitively expensive.

 

[diaspora]

An SCD that would basically be an external, off-the-shelf graphics chip could potentially match or get close to PS4K specs, without being prohibitively expensive.

The power of the cloud could get the vanilla XB1 to potentially match or get close to PS4K specs without being prohibitively expensive.

 

[shouamabane]

Something that intrigues me is how they're going to go about additional controllers this time around. If we're going with a screen-based controller again, it may be a repeat of the Gamepad situation, where you had this unique controller for one player and the others had to make do with Pro Controllers and Wiimotes. Eeeh.

In my experience people rush towards the Wii Remotes and Pro Controllers because they're more familiar with them. And somebody has to make do with the GamePad.

 

[MuchoMalo]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the underpowered CPU was necessitated by the need (or rather, what Nintendo wrongly perceived as the need) to maintain Wii BC, combined with the extremely low TDP.

Even without targeting XB1/PS4 performance, they could easily have made a cheap box that comfortably outperformed PS3/360 in every respect if they hadn't had such woefully misguided design priorities.

This, and they thought that everyone would shift to GPGPU quickly. They were right about GPGPU, but they did it too early and took it too far.