Support NeoGAF

[TAJ]

The way I see it:

A) If the model was pre-calculated, the bullet would hit and interact realistically.

B) The bullet would hit and a collision would be detected. The colliding objects details would be sent to a server which calculates the model sends it back to the game. Then the bullet would then interact realistically.

Is it realistic to have massive lag between a bullet hit and a visible result?

 

[WolfForager]

The way I see it:

A) If the model was pre-calculated, the bullet would hit and interact realistically.

B) The bullet would hit and a collision would be detected. The colliding objects details would be sent to a server which calculates the model sends it back to the game. Then the bullet would then interact realistically.

To calculate the model using the resources of just a console or a single PC would take a few seconds-minutes; depending on how complex the system is (number of objects). The problem with situation A is that there is only a finite number of situations you could pre-calculate; where-as solution B would mean there is an infinite number of situations because they are calculated when they are encountered on-the-fly.

Indeed. This is where I think this whole approach falls down.

Unless they use a pre-calculated simulations for models of similair shape/material for a large variety of objects then it's just not realistic.

Also this:

Is it realistic to have massive lag between a bullet hit and a visible result?

 

[Dr_Swales]

Is it realistic to have massive lag between a bullet hit and a visible result?

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. If you are implying that a collision would be detected then you would have to wait for a response from a server this is not how collision/interactions are implemented in games.

See: network prediction, client-side predicition

EDIT:

This is where I think this whole approach falls down.

Yeah, that is the problem, the games designers would be limited in what objects they could use. Would be a cool system to have though =)

 

[zhao3gold]

I am really looking forward to this game. Show us more at VGX, Remedy & Microsoft, please~!!!!

 

[Jezehbell]

Pretty cool read. Can't wait to see this in action.
http://www.pixelux.com/Remedy-QuantumBreak2013.html?id=20614102&siteID=123112&linkID=9242259

 

[Can Crusher]

So it's not really a physics system, but rather a material based animation system?

 

[Antialias]

Having used Finite Element Analysis for projects in the past I somehow doubt that they're using true FEA. I've set a model to run on a fairly modern PC for a simple beam and had to leave it for over a minute while it did all the calculations, so I can't see a console mapping all these objects in real time.. I'm completely unfamiliar with this DMM model, but I'm assuming it's a toned down FEA model as opposed to a full one.

They published their method here: Paper

It's a co-rotational linear approximation with a ton of hacks and simplifications. The performance numbers in the paper suggest it wasn't really viable last-gen, although they managed to ship something in TFU. Maybe that was all extra fakery too.

Most engineering finite element codes have restrictions on the material model that mean super-slow explicit methods need to be used (hypoelastic models in particular). In computer graphics it's more common to use an efficient hyperelastic model with plasticity bolted on, which is what these guys do. So it's just collision detection and a linear solve. With compute shaders and some other innovations we can do a lot better than the numbers in that paper on current-gen so I would expect to see this kind of tech spread.

 

[WolfForager]

So it's not really a physics system, but rather a material based animation system?

What it is basically is dividing a model into a finite number of parts (the more the better) and running a physics simulation for each of these parts and therefore calculating an overall model. It's much more accurate than the classical approach and as long as you have a computer to do all the calculations, it's much more "simple".

 

[ekim]

You can see here, that nothing is pre baked:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bE4k9Vmcp5g

 

[mrklaw]

So more like the broken wall in GTAV? It makes sense, I can't imagine the next gen systems being able to pull off finite element analysis in real time. But even if canned, the results should look amazing and very natural.

 

[Mael]

Console wars bullshit has nothing to do with this thread, that's what's wrong with it.

"Bone needs all the exclusives it can get." contributes nothing positive to the thread at all.
Dunno why I even have to explain why that post is useless.

Sycophant only thread?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Sounds too good to be true for in-game use.

I'd have no trouble believing this to be used for rendering of cut-scenes though.

 

[gofreak]

Wasn't DMM used in the last few Star Wars games?

I remember reading about it before anyhow in a games context. Or maybe it was a different/earlier version.

 

[Eggbok]

You can see here, that nothing is pre baked:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bE4k9Vmcp5g

Reminds me of the Star Wars game we never got :/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPBPYexEEoA

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Wasn't DMM used in the last few Star Wars games?

I remember reading about it before anyhow in a games context. Or maybe it was a different/earlier version.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly64-Bn7i4k

It's not anywhere near as interesting if only part of the environment can be destroyed in this manner, and it has the problem almost all physics/ragdoll/stuff has - floaty as fuck physics.

 

[oVerde]

can't wait

 

[gaming_noob]

Very nice. I don't think I've seen any tech demos for the Xbone yet. It would be nice to see some of the new techniques they've developed. I remember Rare showing off their paralax mapping on Perfect Dark Zero's walls and it blew us away lol...

 

[KOHIPEET]

Wasn't DMM used in the last few Star Wars games?

I remember reading about it before anyhow in a games context. Or maybe it was a different/earlier version.

It was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g8E2sO2kYk

Expect this in higher resolution.

 

[hesido]

You can see here, that nothing is pre baked:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bE4k9Vmcp5g

Some things are pre-baked, that's why they employ DMM player for the massive destruction scenes, as mentioned, and displayed, in the press release. For this game, we don't know if the real-time dynamic version is being used, it's a possibility that's only slightly hinted in the press release.

 

[Gbraga]

This is very cool, can't wait to finally see some gameplay.

This and D4 are the most interesting Xbox One exclusives imo

 

[Paradicia]

It was.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g8E2sO2kYk

Expect this in higher resolution.

Look at the comments "viksohal 6 months ago

Awesome. Expect more DMM on the Xbox One ;-)"

Must be a dev..

 

[KOHIPEET]

Look at the comments "viksohal 6 months ago

Awesome. Expect more DMM on the Xbox One ;-)"

Must be a dev..

Lol, I didn't notice that. Almost certainly a dev, maybe from Remedy.

 

[Guy.brush]

hmm. PLAYBACK in the press release seems to suggest that it is just a fancy way of playing back pre-simulated destruction that was done in Maya or elsewhere.
So it will not be dynamic.

 

[R3TRODYCE]

I can't wait for this.

 

[Au{R}oN]

can't wait

i like this PRE-RENDERED footages.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

No wonder why the object physics looked so awesome.

Star Wars physics were awesome (also because of Euphoria), can't wait to see this one in action.

 

[Respawn]

Which is what I was thinking. This would be a good application to run on MS's cloud based services.

Because there is no way you can run real time finite element analysis in real-time on a console. For one object at a time maybe, but not a system of objects.

This is sounding interesting. I like new tech in games.

The cloud is not going to do what you're asking for.

 

[Alienous]

Sounds awesome.

That shit's going to look really good frozen in time. Hopefully the TV bullshit isn't going to play a big role in the game.

 

[Fabrik]

2015?

 

[Haunted]

DMM is not pre-baked. Everything is simulated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bE4k9Vmcp5g

Oh yeah, I remember this.

 

[KKRT00]

For all people asking, its like in Ryse, its animation destruction system. It is prebaked, but geometry is rendered in real-time.
So basically its advanced animation system for destruction.

 

[Alienous]

For all people asking, its like in Ryse, its animation destruction system. It is prebaked, but geometry is rendered in real-time.
So basically its advanced animation system for destruction.

I can't imagine how it wouldn't be somewhat prebaked, unless they really were simulating at a molecular level.

Welp, let's hope it's impressive.

 

[synce]

Have they said if any of the footage shown so far is real time?

 

[noobasuar]

Can't wait to see more. Remedy is without a doubt one of the best studios around.

 

[jacksepticeye]

Sounds promising...... show it

 

[Chobel]

Have they said if any of the footage shown so far is real time?

They said that E3 footage is real time.

 

[Wishmaster92]

Sounds good Remedy!

 

[Insane Metal]

Oh man... this game will be awesome. In Remedy I trust.

 

[Wishmaster92]

Holy shit, that's not pre-baked? I thought everyone said it was? Impressive.

 

[Can Crusher]

Holy shit, that's not pre-baked? I thought everyone said it was? Impressive.

Of course it's pre baked.

 

[hesido]

Holy shit, that's not pre-baked? I thought everyone said it was? Impressive.

The destruction is pre-baked, and played out in realtime. For the last time, guys.

 

[Primedoughnut]

can't wait

The only problem with this is what system was it demoed one? We've already seen visual downgrades for both Forza 5 and Ryse from their original E3 reveals...

 

[jacksepticeye]

Holy shit, that's not pre-baked? I thought everyone said it was? Impressive.

It is but as long as its seamless it should look good.

BF4s destruction looks very noticeably baked at times and it ruins it

 

[Maninthemirror]

The only problem with this is what system was it demoed one? We've already seen visual downgrades for both Forza 5 and Ruse from their original E3 reveals...

Nearly all games at e3 including forza and probably this were created in realtime using ingame assets to simulate closely what the game will/might/hoping to look like. When real gameplay is utilized the IQ is always lost due to extra processing the cpu requires in addition to graphics and if the game is playable then it is on a developers kit which has higher specs than consumer devices so they have ample space to work on their game. Remember remedys Alan wake demos before it became a Microsoft game ? There was a remedy demo in 2006 which showed the game physics of
Alan wake which were beyond what Alan wake actually got

http://youtu.be/D3HybhZjcGE

 

[Alienous]

It is but as long as its seamless it should look good.

BF4s destruction looks very noticeably baked at times and it ruins it

It aint just pre-baked, it's cookie cutter.

Spoiler

mmm

Technically, Red Faction Guerilla has pre-baked destruction.

 

[blastprocessor]

I'm sure some of this can be realtime (as per Star Wars) but those big bridge collisions must be pre-computed.

Let's hope this comes to PC.

 

[Satchel]

God damn this game is going to be amazing.

 

[NoirVisage]

All I see is a buzz-word. Wake me up when they actually show this in action.

Word, they're usually pretty good at showing this stuff in action, I guess time will tell.

 

[LeBart]

Technically, Red Faction Guerilla has pre-baked destruction.

Seriously?
I officialy understand less about physics calculation in games after reading this thread.

 

[dragonelite]

The only problem with this is what system was it demoed one? We've already seen visual downgrades for both Forza 5 and Ryse from their original E3 reveals...

Lets hope its minimally 900p i mean if they can use the same AA solution as Ryse game will look good.