shinobi602
Member
There's a downgrade in Ryse? Looks the same, if not better to me.
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Quantum Break uses "Digital Molecular Matter"; extremely versatile destruction system
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
phosphor112
Banned
Sounds like soft body physics engine or a next gen "Euphoria" engine... both are basically the same thing.
Thanks for finding that link.
Sounds like it's precalculated/baked.
Thanks for finding that link.
Sounds like it's precalculated/baked.
phosphor112
Banned
woops, double post.
I think the term pre-baked is being used to refer to different things by different people.
The mathematical finite element model for the collisions is pre-baked because generating that would take several minutes or more depending on the number of objects in the scene.
The positions of objects are calculated using the pre-baked mathematical model. It's just a formula that you put numbers into and get a result.
The graphics are in real-time, not pre-baked.
The mathematical finite element model for the collisions is pre-baked because generating that would take several minutes or more depending on the number of objects in the scene.
The positions of objects are calculated using the pre-baked mathematical model. It's just a formula that you put numbers into and get a result.
The graphics are in real-time, not pre-baked.
My thought as well. I can see this becoming relatively common once GPGPU functions really take off.
phosphor112
Banned
I'm not sure how one would be able to pre-bake the graphics when it comes to physics =P. But yeah, the event happens during the real time rendering of a game, but according to the Pixelux description, it sounds like all the major calculations are pre-calculated and then compressed to replay in real time.
I don't want to be obnoxious but I did explain in my previous post that the tech they are using is well within realtime limits. 'Finite Element' does not have to mean 'really slow'. Pixelux managed 10ms per frame in a complex scene with a core 2 CPU in 2009; even just factoring in CPU improvements since then would get you down below 5. This stuff works OK on the GPU as well.
Bigger environmental scenes like the bridge are almost certainly pre-calculated, but they could probably manage to simulate small-to-medium size objects, maybe up to the scale of houses.
Since they boast a 60x compression ratio in their press release I would guess they are using something like Principal Components Analysis (same tech as facial animation) to compress and play back the animation for these big preauthored scenes.
Bigger environmental scenes like the bridge are almost certainly pre-calculated, but they could probably manage to simulate small-to-medium size objects, maybe up to the scale of houses.
Since they boast a 60x compression ratio in their press release I would guess they are using something like Principal Components Analysis (same tech as facial animation) to compress and play back the animation for these big preauthored scenes.
DMM is not an animation system for soft bodies. It's not Euphoria.
There's tons of material out there on DMM from Pixelux themselves about what it is & isn't - it's a way of calculating the bending & breaking of objects based on the physical properties of their materials (e.g. wood breaks like wood, steel will bend slightly etc). It's a ton of heavy math to simulate how "something" like a building should break apart with the parts behaving as they should based on their material, shape, size etc.
There are two approaches with it - dynamic at runtime, or pre-calculated in Maya etc. It looks likes Quantum Break is going the pre-calculated approach where an artist in maya uses the DMM plugin to simulate the scene they're destroying to generate realistic looking destruction animations.
DMM has come a long way since Force Unleashed used it. Heck, many of the big blockbuster movies are already using it for big destruction sequences
Yeah, most definitely. DMM isn't "cheating" - it's doing a /ton/ of work to generate /really/ cool looking sequences. Glad it's getting used by games again - Vik & the Pixelux guys are good people.
DigitalDevilSummoner
zero cognitive reasoning abilities
please don't ban me
I'm sure I will love it on the PC with 1080p/60fps and ultra settings just like Alan Wake.
Maninthemirror
Banned
DMM is not an animation system for soft bodies. It's not Euphoria.
There's tons of material out there on DMM from Pixelux themselves about what it is & isn't - it's a way of calculating the bending & breaking of objects based on the physical properties of their materials (e.g. wood breaks like wood, steel will bend slightly etc). It's a ton of heavy math to simulate how "something" like a building should break apart with the parts behaving as they should based on their material, shape, size etc.
There are two approaches with it - dynamic at runtime, or pre-calculated in Maya etc. It looks likes Quantum Break is going the pre-calculated approach where an artist in maya uses the DMM plugin to simulate the scene they're destroying to generate realistic looking destruction animations.
DMM has come a long way since Force Unleashed used it. Heck, many of the big blockbuster movies are already using it for big destruction sequences
Which is what its great for . Realtime animations. DMM playback allows remedy to create realtime animations then play them back ingame without much compression. Which mean the destruction using this middleware does not happen as a direct result of what the user does but when the story progresses
Meaning they create a destruction sequence and at a linear point and place it in a location. When user walks from point a to b or does something x to y, the animation plays which the user can see but not interact with . For example real time destruction is a gun shooting a wall and it splinters and destructs but a tower falling in an ingame sequence is what this engine is for .
Yeah, I meant to say pre-rendered/pre-baked -_-
It seems like the events have the animations/positions of objects pre-calculated like in Battlefield 4 (tried not to compare to BF4 but couldn't think of a better example) but with significantly more detail. Allowing for real-time rendering of detailed destruction scenes.
I guess we will just have to wait and see it sounds really interesting (to me).
EDIT:
Thank you for the link to that paper earlier, I haven't had a chance to read it yet.
ReplacementPelican
Member
I remember watching destruction physics for The Force Unleashed, will be interesting t see it all 'next gen'd
DeadlyVirus
Member
Now if they'd just show more than 10 seconds of gameplay...that'd be great
LukasTaves
Member
Now if they add Euphoria to this and their face tech = OMG!
Dunno if DMM pre bakes anything, but the hallmark of their tech is interactivity and procedural calculations of the objects inner physics, to provide un canned deformation and destruction.
Dunno if DMM pre bakes anything, but the hallmark of their tech is interactivity and procedural calculations of the objects inner physics, to provide un canned deformation and destruction.
LukasTaves
Member
DMM is not an animation system for soft bodies. It's not Euphoria.
There's tons of material out there on DMM from Pixelux themselves about what it is & isn't - it's a way of calculating the bending & breaking of objects based on the physical properties of their materials (e.g. wood breaks like wood, steel will bend slightly etc). It's a ton of heavy math to simulate how "something" like a building should break apart with the parts behaving as they should based on their material, shape, size etc.
There are two approaches with it - dynamic at runtime, or pre-calculated in Maya etc. It looks likes Quantum Break is going the pre-calculated approach where an artist in maya uses the DMM plugin to simulate the scene they're destroying to generate realistic looking destruction animations.
DMM has come a long way since Force Unleashed used it. Heck, many of the big blockbuster movies are already using it for big destruction sequences
From a previous interview, they are pre calculating physics at a massive scale, like when the ship collapses with the bridge, but they can pause at any time, and since in actual gameplay the player can only interact with a fraction of the scene they can maintain the same level of fidelity of the physics on the objects the player is interacting with...
Supposedly once time starts flowing again they can "blend" the real time player interactions with the pre baked stuff too.
Edit: I think this is similar to what Crytek is doing with their GeomCache... It's pre baked, but apparently you can interact with it in smaller scale too as well...
phosphor112
Banned
Ah, I thought DMM was integrated into Euphoria as a part of the engine. I guess it's just a middleware.DMM is not an animation system for soft bodies. It's not Euphoria.
There's tons of material out there on DMM from Pixelux themselves about what it is & isn't - it's a way of calculating the bending & breaking of objects based on the physical properties of their materials (e.g. wood breaks like wood, steel will bend slightly etc). It's a ton of heavy math to simulate how "something" like a building should break apart with the parts behaving as they should based on their material, shape, size etc.
There are two approaches with it - dynamic at runtime, or pre-calculated in Maya etc. It looks likes Quantum Break is going the pre-calculated approach where an artist in maya uses the DMM plugin to simulate the scene they're destroying to generate realistic looking destruction animations.
DMM has come a long way since Force Unleashed used it. Heck, many of the big blockbuster movies are already using it for big destruction sequences
Yeah, most definitely. DMM isn't "cheating" - it's doing a /ton/ of work to generate /really/ cool looking sequences. Glad it's getting used by games again - Vik & the Pixelux guys are good people.
Sorry! =P
Well, actually, FEA computation can be made pretty fast esp. for games which
do not need huge precision. This makes it possible to limit iterations of the
solvers to a huge amount while still gaining good looking stuff. Compare this
the the vortex confinement method in fluid dynamics, i.e. a low-iteration
count on the pressure solver smooths/damps the flow way too much, yet adding
artificial vorticity (energy) back into the flow at the right places can
compensate for the lost in energy gaining a very pleasing swirling flow again
with much less computational resources as doing without.
Since we are talking about games, there is always the possibility to have an
early exit while doing said computation and compensate otherwise. Within
Finite Element Analysis there are many ways of optimizing the thing down such
that the main characteristic / behavior is still alive, yet the computation
to take much less time. For example, one method is adapting the mesh locally
to increase accuracy where needed, i.e. following the cracks is a good thing.
Yet adaptive mesh refinement is sort of a hard problem on unstructured meshes.
However instead of adapting a mesh, one can also adapt the order of the method
used, using a higher order method (locally) where needed and a lower order one
otherwise. There is much more. Basically, the trick is to turn down the
computation to a point where the physical behavior is still believable without
breaking the stability / convergence of the algorithms. And this, essentially,
requires a good knowledge of Finite Element Analysis as well as physics and
math esp. knowing something about the stability of the methods used which is
also often coupled with the problem itself. A pretty counter intuitive
phenomenon (for the untrained eye) is that increasing the degrees of freedom
can lead to an earlier breakdown of a otherwise good method. Hint; condition
number. Hence, just throwing more resolution into the system may have a
diminishing effect. Reaching this limit either means to optimize on another
part or changing the entire method perhaps on demand.
Indeed, the standard methods for Finite Element Analysis are way too slow,
since they are build for high precision computation, for the engineer, for
computing real-world stability etc.
Btw; Funny how each developer gives a new name to an old bottle what
essentially is Finite Element Analysis. Everyone adds a little spice of its
own such that selling the stuff looks so new and submitting papers makes the
company look good at GDC -- while the stuff is pretty old from a mathematical
perspective. Yeah, the gaming industry gives us the necessary air to breath to
pull all these cool things hidden in the trove of the past, heh Corrinne?
do not need huge precision. This makes it possible to limit iterations of the
solvers to a huge amount while still gaining good looking stuff. Compare this
the the vortex confinement method in fluid dynamics, i.e. a low-iteration
count on the pressure solver smooths/damps the flow way too much, yet adding
artificial vorticity (energy) back into the flow at the right places can
compensate for the lost in energy gaining a very pleasing swirling flow again
with much less computational resources as doing without.
Since we are talking about games, there is always the possibility to have an
early exit while doing said computation and compensate otherwise. Within
Finite Element Analysis there are many ways of optimizing the thing down such
that the main characteristic / behavior is still alive, yet the computation
to take much less time. For example, one method is adapting the mesh locally
to increase accuracy where needed, i.e. following the cracks is a good thing.
Yet adaptive mesh refinement is sort of a hard problem on unstructured meshes.
However instead of adapting a mesh, one can also adapt the order of the method
used, using a higher order method (locally) where needed and a lower order one
otherwise. There is much more. Basically, the trick is to turn down the
computation to a point where the physical behavior is still believable without
breaking the stability / convergence of the algorithms. And this, essentially,
requires a good knowledge of Finite Element Analysis as well as physics and
math esp. knowing something about the stability of the methods used which is
also often coupled with the problem itself. A pretty counter intuitive
phenomenon (for the untrained eye) is that increasing the degrees of freedom
can lead to an earlier breakdown of a otherwise good method. Hint; condition
number. Hence, just throwing more resolution into the system may have a
diminishing effect. Reaching this limit either means to optimize on another
part or changing the entire method perhaps on demand.
Indeed, the standard methods for Finite Element Analysis are way too slow,
since they are build for high precision computation, for the engineer, for
computing real-world stability etc.
Btw; Funny how each developer gives a new name to an old bottle what
essentially is Finite Element Analysis. Everyone adds a little spice of its
own such that selling the stuff looks so new and submitting papers makes the
company look good at GDC -- while the stuff is pretty old from a mathematical
perspective. Yeah, the gaming industry gives us the necessary air to breath to
pull all these cool things hidden in the trove of the past, heh Corrinne?
killer rin
Member
In essence they are doing calculations on their calculation farm in dev studio record it and when player is playing game that animation can be used and system will calculate only animation, shaders and so on but it won't calculate physic itself.
Naturally player interaction in that case is minimal and you won't see destruction of things via normally targeting for example pot or building via rocket launcher.
Now soft body physic is different matter.
It does give you real time solution for destruction.
Still animation can be used for example to record destruction of building in phases where for example different part of the building will crumble depending which column was targeted giving player illusion of real-time destruction.
IcyBlueStrawberry
Member
Hah, I remember being excited by the LucasArts tech demo from 6 years ago.
It's crazy how long it took for DMM to become properly implemented in a game.
It's crazy how long it took for DMM to become properly implemented in a game.
Ultimatepancake
Banned
Remedy come back to playstation we want you :'(
Mr. Waffle
Member
if it was real time, I don't care if it is on the GPU that much destruction would drop the frame rate of either console to 4fps or less... Everything may be dynamic, and react as materials might (which they won't, but that is another story) but it will be baked. If this tech did what most think it does Film companies would be all over it. Real time rendering of scenes would be huge in the film world... but even with huge render farms I doubt they can render real time destruction on a cinematic level.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Technically all they have to do is make it convincing enough to make gamers believe that it works as they describe. No matter how they do it they have some impressive tech at work in this game.
rokkerkory
Member
Cool stuff. QB looks great
Nice! I can see this eventually becoming a norm this generation.
Oh! Lol. Why the necro-bump, Senjutsu?
Oh! Lol. Why the necro-bump, Senjutsu?
Been waiting to see that myself.