So I say something that is actually happening and you just make guesses why it's happening and I'm talking bollox?
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China warns North Korea: Youre on your own if you go after the United States
- Thread starter Piecake
- Start date
So I say something that is actually happening and you just make guesses why it's happening and I'm talking bollox?
And just plain old culture shock. But yeah, 3% of defectors possibly returning to North Korea(unconfirmed, maybe less) is such an incredibly stupid reason to think that maybe North Korea isn't such a bad place.
The main difference between NK and SK was that NK received support from the Soviets and China to build up its military for a takeover; SK did not receive such support from the US because the US was opposed to such a scenario. Had the reverse power balance occurred, it would have been SK being the aggressor, which by no means suggests that it would have been "wrong", as unification was the desired end goal from everyone from the very beginning (but had been complicated due to the spread of communism that the US felt was unacceptable). The discussion of the conflict here simply on who-attacked-who-first ignores the underlying and unsolved problem of the NK/SK divide that was created due to the Soviet/US split after WWII that was not desired at all by Koreans of both sides. Also, guess who didn't sign the armistice? South Korea. Certainly, both countries since then had lead very different paths, but it's important to understand that it's not simply a black-and-white issue at hand.
Generalpsyduck
Banned
NK is no use to China of their leash. Makes sense they wouldn't want to go to war with The U.S and it's allies over someone they can't control.
Bobnob
Member
And your guessing its not that bad of a place. Lol
Look i don't know alot about NK but i do know that the regime cant afford to feed its people outside of Pyongyang, eating grass is pretty normal. Hospitals in Pyongyang have regular power outages.And the regime only allows cameres and pictures taken by outsider when escorted by the regime.
Its advertised as one of the worst places imaginable, but I don't think anyone is claiming that everyone wants to flee considering that its debatable if most North Koreans know that the outside world is better.
I think a far more likely explanation as to why some people return is that they feel alone and isolated in South Korea or the nation that they are living in. They are living in a world vastly different from their own with no family or friends, and in an urban center where it is easy to become isolated and alone. Hell, even living in an urban area might be a new experience for these people.
I'd imagine that they move back because they want their world to make sense again and to feel a sense of belonging, even if the situation is awful, just to stave off that loneliness and isolation. Plus, you can't discount good old propaganda and indoctrination.
I honestly don't know how you can call a nation that isn't as bad as advertised that admits to its own freakin people that they might have to prepare for famine and economic hardship. Not to mention the North Korean prison camps, which we have a lot of first-hand accounts of.
TheExecutive
Member
So much this. Also the smaller warheads are much more dangerous as they become mobile fairly quickly and can be hidden and that's not even talking about nuclear material and the safe disposal of it so it doesn't fall into the wrong hands.
The real threats aren't against established governments because everyone know what will happen if NK nukes a US territory. However, the dynasty falling and missles being smuggled out of NK and on to the shores of the US is a disaster where few can be held accountable and the worst part about it is the few who commit the act want to be held accountable for it.
People in any large urban area should be absolutely against states like North Korea getting warheads for this reason alone. We haven't even begun talking about the distribution of knowledge/materials of how to do this stuff to terrorist organizations.
It's a flat out bad idea for NK to have nukes and anyone in the West that says "who are we to say what they can and can't do" are straight up ignorant to the threat such actions pose.
However, it's too late for that discussion. NK has nukes and they are going to strap them to missiles so it's all about containment now.
littleworm
Member
I mean it really shouldn't be a surprise that China wouldn't go to war to back North Korea. China's position in the world has changed dramatically in the last 60 years. Sure North Korea serves as a nice geographic buffer, but China stands to lose far more by getting involved especially if they were to be at war against SK/US and whoever else would be opposing North Korea.
Fenderputty
Banned
China wants NK to comply. They like NK as a buffer country keep our bases off of their border. They also don't want to deal with the refugee crisis
I'm guessing that it's not as bad as advertised. I've even stated I wouldn't want to live there.
When the entire world is cutting you off you're going to have famine and economic hardship.
Isolation in South Korea isn't exclusive to North Koreans either
https://www.theguardian.com/inequal...ity-paradox-long-life-good-health-and-poverty
US shouldn't strike first. At all. Ever.
I dunno. Does Trump know how the Korean War turned out?
TheExecutive
Member
Yeah... no.
Maybe in this case...
Bobnob
Member
Might be an idea to stop spending all ya cash on nuclear testing eh.
Beer Monkey
Member
Agreed, and same for everyone with nukes.
China basically saying they'll side against whoever strikes first could actually save the world.
Do you understand that what got the world through the cold war was nobody ever striking first?
Lol how
Coriolanus
Banned
A foolish idea, if youre a dictator that never gave much of a shit about your people. Especially after you've seen how Hussein and Gaddafi ended. Even more so with a batshit insane fucknut in charge of the world's greatest military power.
It keeps the US from invading and having 30% of their population killed.
But they do care if NK tries to get rid of crazy Don Trump and his fascist dictatorship aims in USA.
OrlanisWorks
Banned
Say if NK attacks and then we strike...
Once we've decided to strike from (likely) the air and sea, would China move in with ground troops to secure the territory?
Once we've decided to strike from (likely) the air and sea, would China move in with ground troops to secure the territory?
North Korea had famine and economic hardships before the nuclear sanctions.
They had a massive famine in the 90s due to the Soviet Union falling and Russia no longer propping them up. They are now propped up by China.
And yes, isolation, loneliness, inequality, and poverty are a fact of life. I never said otherwise.
I just find it odd that you are downplaying all of the evidence that shows that North Korea is an awful, horrible, repressive and cruel state on the basis that a few North Koreans return to North Korea. You don't even know why they are going back. You are just sticking in motives of your own, and motives that contradict the evidence that we do have.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
The diplomats probably telling NK this everyday, there's no point making threat in public statements to make US look desperate.
My hope is that South Korea would take over with the assistance of China and the United States. China agrees to this because the United States would give up its military bases and presence in South Korea.
Coriolanus
Banned
doing that implies that they'd have to take care of the nork civvies, of which there are... more than twenty million. So no.
They'd probably secure what resource-rich locations they could tho. Might as well do it, since The Don will if they don't.
TheExecutive
Member
All I am saying is to state a nations policy to NEVER strike first is a really stupid position to take.
boredofcanada
Member
But then they would have to deal with 25 million starving people who have no concept of the outside world. And that's assuming that you can even get anywhere near Dear Leader and asassinate him. You know what NK is really good at? Espionage. They think about this every second of every day.
I never stated that I liked the North Korean government. Kim il-Sung was fine but the other two not so much. My entire argument has been that
1. The country isn't as bad as it's made out to be. Never accept everything the media of a nation says about an enemy nation.
2. The US has no business invading other countries let alone regime change. We've seen this in Chile, (An attempt in) Syria, Iraq, etc.
Harrison Bergeron
Member
U.S. military hackers working furiously to try and launch conventional NK missiles into waters near Guam after this news.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
What does "not as bad as it's made out" even mean in this case? They have wide spread famine and they use their people as slaves for the mines, yeah I Guess they don't stake people in front of their gates like good old Vlad the Impaler but is that the standard you want to defend?
Smiles and Cries
Member
Why does China feel that having a buffer between them and South Korea so important?
Do they really think the US Troops will come marching north and invade them if North Korea does not exist?
Do they really think the US Troops will come marching north and invade them if North Korea does not exist?
Return to the Six Party Talks. NK is not completely unreasonable. Shit like Trump's rhetoric and Dubya's "Axis of Evil" tripe only reaffirms NK's military buildup.
ronaldthump
Member
I think an invasion of NK would be a good thing tbh so I hope Kim launches a missle. I can't imagine the citizenry suffering the way they are now. They could be liberated from NK's insane and harsh realities and people can live free once the war is over.
The US killed how many in the Native American genocide? Slave trade? Invasions? Nuclear bombings? They have the highest rate of incarceration in the world doing slave labor. Yet, we still act like it is redeemable.
They don't want massive amounts of refugees flooding into China if things go to shit. Better to prop NK up to avoid that happening.
astroturfing
Member
you know this for 100% certainty how?
the American president is very likely either suffering from dementia or completely crazy, none of us really have a clue whats going to happen. he is not rational at all and he has more power than anyone.
i do hope you're right though.
Raylan Targaryen
Member
Kim is just a troll that always spouts shit, but with Trump you never know.
Obama will decide what happens. If he says we must avoid war, WW3 is happening. If Obama says we need to finally put down NK, we'll be fine.
The US is a well-established and active military aggressor in the world. No country not allied with the US wants their forces at their doorstep for that reason alone.
Beer Monkey
Member
You think an invasion of a nuclear power would be a good thing?
SMH.
They have nukes. Just because they haven't got them actually working in ICBMs yet doesn't mean they can't get one across to South Korea and kill millions.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Trump probably didn't even know there was a North and South Korea until a few months ago.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
Literally Whataboutism. Yes the US is still redeemable, tell me what is "not so bad" about North Korea?
What do you think is going to happen to those 20 million starving people?
What do you think "live free" means to them?
Basically every nation looks like an evil piece of shit if you get history involved.
Also, we don't have data on the incarceration rate of some countries, most notably North Korea. I am not denying that America's rate is grossly high. It's just an odd thing to use to shit on America when we are talking about North Korea.
No China would throw hands if we retaliate by trying to overthrow Kim. If we just fight the Invasion but not overthrow. They they'll stay neutral.
lmao, we're done here
NihonTiger90
Member
Can't see that happening. The deal for China to accept South Korean annexation of the North would have to be:
- U.S. gives up all bases in South Korea AND Japan, as well as perhaps even Guam
- U.S. recognizes Taiwan as part of China and the Taiwanese government as illegitimate
And the U.S. would do neither. The Chinese endgame is the U.S. out of Asia entirely and permanently.
Nations are governed by interest. And it's of more interest for China to have a slightly uncontrollable neighbor than one that hosts a bunch of American bases. Even if China were to be given reliable assurances that those bases would never be used against them, the US is still prone to adventurism and a change in administrations can overturn any such assurances. That and the status quo is a much easier pill to swallow than Korean War Part II.
Right-wing analyst on Hannity doesn't care that millions of North Koreans will die from the nukes we'll launch at them and from the subsequent nuclear fallout: https://www.mediamatters.org/video/...because-theyll-be-mostly-north-koreans/217589
Keep believing though that the Trump administration is actually just trying to save North Koreans from their gulags.
Keep believing though that the Trump administration is actually just trying to save North Koreans from their gulags.