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[Zaptruder]

I should probably read through the thread, but those of you that know me, know that I've been on the HMD/VR/AR bandwagon cheerleading for a while now.

It's damn good to know that a guy of Carmack's calibre is starting to do some shit with it too - because it's this tech... lead by gamers - that will be the future of computing technology in general.

Forget tablets, forget desktops, forget all that other shit - this is true convergence.

Admittedly the first few iterations of a commercially successful mainstream product will be decidedly for at home use - but quickly enough, people will hack in smartphone support, and have this shit on the go.

All the software and UI redesign for the paradigm shift is going to be the biggest area for potential growth in software since the internet itself - bloody everything is going to change.

Just imagine any number of open world 'simulator' style games - GTA, Elder Scrolls, Dragon's Dogma... imagine them from this literal first person view. Instead of fucking through menus to retrieve items - you look down, see your belt with pouches hanging off - tap the pouch, it opens up Ultima style, and you fumble around in it to retrieve the item of choice.

I mean, it doesn't have to be 1 to 1 with reality - but it'll enable games that make you feel like you're there, but better (because you're not actually getting shot in the face).

 

[GotEmRunnin]

Personally I don't want Carmack meeting anyone at Valve. If they like his stuff they'll want to include it in their games i.e adding another decade or two to HL3....

 

[Death Dealer]

I'm cool with just the knobs getting turned up.

 

[plagiarize]

I'm cool with just the knobs getting turned up.

as am i, but can you not see why a programmer might not be?

 

[iamshadowlark]

he never said anything that suggests he doesn't think developers can find new ways to innovate. it's just likely not going to come from higher fill rates and faster processors.

Journey isn't made possible by current gen consoles. Little Big Planet isn't made possible by current gen hardware (as the PSP is powerful enough to run the game with all its play create build share uniqueness intact).

they aren't examples of games made possible by the hardware technology, and that's all Carmack was saying. that that new technology in many ways isn't exciting to him because it won't breed innovation.

how you make the leap from that, to 'he is insulting developers of games that innovate without faster fill rates' i have no idea.

Its still very misguided. I mean why couldn't he build a innovative game like LBP or journey though? He certainly has the tools to? It seems to me that he is mad that he can't really come up with much outside the realms of shooters and is trying to coerce people onto the VR bandwagon so he can make more shooters.

To say that next-gen will be nothing more than this gen with the nobs turned up is asinine.

 

[plagiarize]

Its still very misguided. I mean why couldn't he build a innovative game like LBP or journey though? He certainly has the tools to? It seems to me that he is mad that he can't really come up with much outside the realms of shooters and is trying to coerce people onto the VR bandwagon so he can make more shooters.

To say that next-gen will be nothing more than this gen with the nobs turned up is asinine.

it would be asinine if he had said that. he was talking about hardware, not about game design, and the hardware is just this gen with the nobs turned up. and as a programmer that doesn't give him much new to play with. so it isn't very exciting.

and once more, he is the engine programmer, not the game designer. he makes the tools that the game is made with, not the game.

 

[Zaptruder]

Its still very misguided. I mean why couldn't he build a innovative game like LBP or journey though? He certainly has the tools to? It seems to me that he is mad that he can't really come up with much outside the realms of shooters and is trying to coerce people onto the VR bandwagon so he can make more shooters.

To say that next-gen will be nothing more than this gen with the nobs turned up is asinine.

If we retain the same physical perspectives, the same controls, then there is nothing we can do next gen - gameplay wise - that we couldn't do now.

If we change up the controls, change up the physical perspective - it will bring up to the next level - give us a true next generation gaming experience.

I dunno how people are so obtuse towards that simple fact. The difference between VR gaming and normal gaming is this - imagine your vision right now... imagine that in your TV screen. Instead of seeing everything that you're seeing, you see a portion of it, and you see it in your TV screen. To look left or right, you have to twiddle knobs on a controller.

Alternatively, play a FPS - now imagine the view of the screen, is your entire field of view. What you see in the game, completely encompasses your vision. Turn your head left - you look left. Turn your head right, you look right. You move your hand around - your game hand moves around - instead of your character, it's like you've put on a virtual suit - the hand is still you.

 

[Aphexian]

I'm more excited about Doom 3 BFG and possibly hearing about Doom 4. They should be working on it now that Rage is finished.

 

[Durante]

Its still very misguided. I mean why couldn't he build a innovative game like LBP or journey though? He certainly has the tools to? It seems to me that he is mad that he can't really come up with much outside the realms of shooters and is trying to coerce people onto the VR bandwagon so he can make more shooters.

To say that next-gen will be nothing more than this gen with the nobs turned up is asinine.

You're completely misrepresenting/-interpreting the situation. He's an engineer, not a game designer. As an engineer, he is not excited by "next-gen" console hardware (probably because he already had it in his PC a year ago).

On the other hand, he is excited about VR. As everyone should be, see Zaptruder excellent post above. It's revolutionary.

 

[Tarin02543]

just tighten up the graphics and I'm good to go.

 

[Deadbeat]

as am i, but can you not see why a programmer might not be?

But that programmer has no pull in the industry anymore. He gave that up after id tech 4 and its subsequent limitations. id tech 5 is even worse off. It may have a giant prebaked texture that can be streamed, but its low res, slow to load, huge, and requires all objects to be bolted into the environment. Its not an effective method and even if he did try to license it out, noone is going to use it in the face of other better engines out there.

The only relevance id software will have in the future of gaming and technology is that 2 second screen in call of duty series showing that some of their engine that was made over a decade ago is still getting some use.

 

[Refreshment.01]

On the other hand, he is excited about VR. As everyone should be, see Zaptruder excellent post above. It's revolutionary.

Can we say it's revolutionary? I ask because we have had VR for years.

Don't you mean it's time for mass adoption? Instead.

 

[iamshadowlark]

There is nothing next-gen about VR at all and the scope is quite limited. I don't know what you all are trying to hype up. Its just different.

Another thing I don't get is the big hardware jump you think current-gen was if you you are gonna play the "its been on PC for a while angle".

 

[Lancehead]

To say that next-gen will be nothing more than this gen with the nobs turned up is asinine.

This is what Carmack said:

When people ask how tapped out is the current console generation, PCs are 10 times as powerful but you really are still not technically limited. Any creative vision that a designer could come up with, we can do a pretty good job representing on current generation and certainly on PC. In many ways I am not all that excited about the next generation. It will let us do everything we want to do now, with the knobs turned up.

He's saying that the technical limitations are barely holding back creative vision of designers even this generation. Therefore next generation technology will definitely allow any creative vision but with higher performance numbers. Meaning you could still have LBPs and Journey's next generation, but it won't necessarily be because of more-powerful hardware.

 

[Durante]

Can we say it's revolutionary? I ask because we have had VR for years.

Don't you mean it's time for mass adoption? Instead.

Which games have you played in VR for years? Just because a technology exists in $50k flight simulators doesn't mean it's not revolutionary when introduced in the broader gaming space. Otherwise, nothing would ever be revolutionary there, rendering the appellation meaningless.

There is nothing next-gen about VR at all and the scope is quite limited.

No and no.

Another thing I don't get is the big hardware jump you think current-gen was if you you are gonna play the "its been on PC for a while angle".

From a software engineering perspective PS3/360 were infinitely more exciting than what is rumored for next-gen. Cell was a completely novel architecture, what with the ring bus, dma, user-managed local store and large number of cores. The 360 GPU was the first architecture with unified shaders (before they were on PC) and also had the edram to distinguish itself.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I just thought VR sounded silly in the 90s and I'd need some convincing to embrace it now.

I suppose I should add that if anyone could find a way to make VR relevant for gaming, it would be someone like Carmack. When we're at a point where I can wear something as light as shades that's wireless with both VR and AR capabilities, I'll be more interested in gaming goggles.

Honestly, I'm not all that excited about next-gen hardware either. The lines between console and PC are within one or two generations of being meaningless, and I think the industry needs to evolve or it will be hitting a brick wall inside of a decade.

If things keep going as they are, I predict we'll be looking at consoles as a collector's hobby, like 80s arcade games are now. Games will be delivered as services on PCs with subscription or FTP models, and everything will be either huge budget cinematic/pseudo open world games starring Hollywood talent, or retro indie or social shovelware with a few actual gems hidden in the slop.

If it takes VR to save us from that future, even at the cost of the buttons and big screens I love, maybe I don't have a choice.

Spoiler

more Prince/Chapelle gifs please

 

[endresults]

Reading Masters of Doom is a prerequisite to making any sort of comment on John Carmack as a person. The guy is amazing, and one of the most talented people on the planet.

Remember the last episode of Star Trek:TNG when Picard was an old man babbling about going off into Klingon space to find some spacetime anomaly and Captain Crusher said "he may be crazy, but he's Jean-Luc Picard"? He's John Carmack, and we should all let him do whatever the hell he wants, because it's going to benefit all of us in the end. Hopefully.

 

[Durante]

If it takes VR to save us from that future, even at the cost of the buttons and big screens I love, maybe I don't have a choice.

Nothing prevents you from having buttons and VR (do you look at the controller while playing?) and the "screen" of a proper (>90° FoV) VR solution is effectively larger than anything you could ever put in your house.

 

[KageMaru]

Im not naive enough to believe the bolded part I was compelled to include that because at one time Carmack was the some sort tech god higher than everyone else in the heavens. But with time some people have changed his mind in relation of how influential he still is.

No disrespect but I think it's naive not to believe the bolded. History has shown that the majority's opinion does not automatically make something correct or true.

I don't think John was higher than others, he just had a better understanding and insight than most. Others have caught up to him, but I still think he's just as relevant or influential as he has ever been.

You got confused Kage since the thread went a bit fast there. The user Utako posted:

And i just said to Utako that Carmack is a tech guy not designer.

Ahh I see now, sorry about that.

It doesn't need to be that complicated. Is just an engine that has wide spread use among important projects/companies, has good a toolset /support, it's versatile and keeps riding in the crest of the tech wave with updates. In the past something similar would be Quake 3 engine (id tech 3?) in the last years we could say it's Unreal 3 for now. Im aware there are more feature rich renderers around.

Oh, so you're basing this on adoption rate? If you want to simplify it down to that, I can see what you mean. I still don't think that was ever important to him though.

Its still very misguided. I mean why couldn't he build a innovative game like LBP or journey though? He certainly has the tools to? It seems to me that he is mad that he can't really come up with much outside the realms of shooters and is trying to coerce people onto the VR bandwagon so he can make more shooters.

To say that next-gen will be nothing more than this gen with the nobs turned up is asinine.

LBP and Journey aren't really good examples of innovation possible due to new technology since both would be possible on last gen hardware.

 

[Zaptruder]

Can we say it's revolutionary? I ask because we have had VR for years.

Don't you mean it's time for mass adoption? Instead.

The iPhone was for touch screen technology as this hypothetical revolutionary VR/AR device is for VR/AR.

Technology has been around for years - it needs to be packaged right, provide the right set of functionalities, before it'll really take off and change the bigger broader picture of computing.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Nothing prevents you from having buttons and VR (do you look at the controller while playing?) and the "screen" of a proper (>90° FoV) VR solution is effectively larger than anything you could ever put in your house.

Well sure, but my point was just that I feel I'd rather adapt to new interfaces than see my favorite passtime turn into some cross between Cable TV and HSN. Who knows really, hopefully I'm just being overly pessimistic, but I tend to overprepare myself for extreme disappointment.

Then again, maybe the industry wouldn't have to adopt lumbering, customer-milking business models if they didn't produce titles that require 2+million units moved to be profitable. My experience tells me companies usually die trying to chase down dollars before they remember what they used to do right.

 

[Refreshment.01]

Which games have you played in VR for years? Just because a technology exists in $50k flight simulators doesn't mean it's not revolutionary when introduced in the broader gaming space. Otherwise, nothing would ever be revolutionary there, rendering the appellation meaningless.

Durante are you for real here? A friend of mine (with enough dug to waste ) years ago had purchased a head set. It even had motion sensing so it tracked your head movements. I played a ton of Duke Nukem 3D with them and worked quite well.

It's not something really new, however it is something that deserves to be executed better and massivly adopted. I think Sony is getting close here with the HMZ at least.

 

[Durante]

Durante are you for real here? A friend of mine (with enough dug to waste ) years ago had purchased a head set. It even had motion sensing so it tracked your head movements. I played a ton of Duke Nukem 3D with them and worked quite well.

It's not something really new, however it is something that deserves to be executed better and massivly adopted. I think Sony is getting close here with the HMZ at least.

I am absolutely for real. Consumer-level HMDs (like the one your friend presumably had) were (and are, including the HMZ) not VR HMDs. For convincing virtual reality, you need to fill most (ideally, all of) the field of vision. That means >90° FoV. Consumer devices are usually <=45° FoV. Of course, with such a large FoV you also need content specifically generated for VR, it won't work for existing games without some changes.

 

[iamshadowlark]

LBP and Journey aren't really good examples of innovation possible due to new technology since both would be possible on last gen hardware.

That was never my intent. My point is that brilliant and innovative new gaming experiences are totally possible right now. Why is it that he wants to rely on VR to deliver new experiences?

 

[mckmas8808]

He's exactly right. I'm not expecting any change in the stale direction the industry is heading just because next-generation systems are hitting soon.

Some people don't view the industry as stale.

 

[dark10x]

I am absolutely for real. Consumer-level HMDs (like the one your friend presumably had) were (and are, including the HMZ) not VR HMDs. For convincing virtual reality, you need to fill most (ideally, all of) the field of vision. That means >90° FoV. Consumer devices are usually <=45° FoV. Of course, with such a large FoV you also need content specifically generated for VR, it won't work for existing games without some changes.

That's definitely the primary issue.

If you sell an HMD with a >90° FOV then you render that device useless for anything that isn't designed to accommodate it. The Sony HMD and others are designed to work with general purpose content and, as such, take on the form of a TV display (16:9 aspect ratio in this case).

Now, if there were some way to switch between two sets of optics for different types of viewing then we might have something. As it stands, the headset Carmack was showing off would be virtually useless to most people as there really isn't any content available that could take advantage of it. Hopefully that changes.

That was never my intent. My point is that brilliant and innovative new gaming experiences are totally possible right now. Why is it that he wants to rely on VR to deliver new experiences?

Why not? It's a fantastic experience when done right.

 

[Seanspeed]

I've been waiting for some VR shit. I think it really is the future.

Definitely. With the push in 3D technology and motion controls like Kinect, virtual reality gaming is the logical next step.

 

[mckmas8808]

VR could be really interesting and fun. But 3D has taught us that putting something on your head can be annoying and even make you feel sick.

It's always interesting to listen to Carmack, I always read his interviews in his voice "on there"

And I agree that 'next-gen' wont be anything special. There are no more creative limits this gen. Ps4 and 720 will just deliver slightly prettier more of the same.

Isn't that was people said about this gen back in 2004?

 

[Alx]

Isn't that was people said about this gen back in 2004?

Well if you exclude motion control, this gen wasn't really innovative. What are the big games of the generation ? Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, Red Dead Redemption ? Those are good games, but very similar to games we already had last gen. Only bigger and prettier.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Last gen wasn't laden with indie and retro re-releases either. I know that's partly because of an aging demographic and because of how easy it is to offer games to people via download now, but reproducing or emulating last-gen or earlier games for current gen systems and having them be profitable surely must be telling us something about this gen.

 

[Refreshment.01]

I am absolutely for real. Consumer-level HMDs (like the one your friend presumably had) were (and are, including the HMZ) not VR HMDs. For convincing virtual reality, you need to fill most (ideally, all of) the field of vision. That means >90° FoV. Consumer devices are usually <=45° FoV. Of course, with such a large FoV you also need content specifically generated for VR, it won't work for existing games without some changes.

It was far from perfect but at the time in terms of immersion it was impressive. And yes, i know you need to a wider fov to achieve better results with this approach.

Anyway, i don't see how Carmack's approach is revolutionary it just seems like a higher fidelity approach to the problem. Funny enough, his using Doom 3, would have been great to have a software show case and input method that better exploited the technology. I see even something as simple as Tumble would do a better job showing the concept.

 

[Durante]

Now, if there were some way to switch between two sets of optics for different types of viewing then we might have something. As it stands, the headset Carmack was showing off would be virtually useless to most people as there really isn't any content available that could take advantage of it. Hopefully that changes.

Yeah, it's a huge chicken and egg problem. Outside of Valve or one of the console manufacturers pushing VR, we can only hope for a gradual grassroots effort. Which should involve unique content, but also -- critically -- "hacks" (eg. d3d dll injection) for popular games to support the projection matrix transformations required for VR.

Oh, and for movies, once you get high enough resolution on this kind of VR device (shouldn't take long with the current DPI craze) you can rather simply backproject existing content into a virtual screen in VR.

Anyway, i don't see how Carmack's approach is revolutionary it just seems like a higher fidelity approach to the problem. Funny enough, his using Doom 3, would have been great to have a software show case and input method that better exploited the technology.

The "revolutionary" idea is using software instead of extremely expensive, cumbersome and/or complex optics to do part of the work in generating an image suitable for VR. This allows for a much more lightweight and cheaper device for full VR than what would otherwise be possible.

 

[Sciz]

That was never my intent. My point is that brilliant and innovative new gaming experiences are totally possible right now. Why is it that he wants to rely on VR to deliver new experiences?

Because he's a tech guy, not a game designer, and tech is just now getting to the point where this sort of experience is possible at a decent level of quality. Ergo, he is interested in developing it further.

 

[enzo_gt]

Well if you exclude motion control, this gen wasn't really innovative. What are the big games of the generation ? Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, Red Dead Redemption ? Those are good games, but very similar to games we already had last gen. Only bigger and prettier.

Surely you haven't been paying attention to more than hardware then.

 

[pottuvoi]

That's definitely the primary issue.

If you sell an HMD with a >90° FOV then you render that device useless for anything that isn't designed to accommodate it. The Sony HMD and others are designed to work with general purpose content and, as such, take on the form of a TV display (16:9 aspect ratio in this case).

Now, if there were some way to switch between two sets of optics for different types of viewing then we might have something. As it stands, the headset Carmack was showing off would be virtually useless to most people as there really isn't any content available that could take advantage of it. Hopefully that changes.

It shouldn't be that hard to have virtual movie screen within the the VR.
This way you can choose what kind of size for screen if it's locked to a place within environment or follows your gaze.. etc.

For proper movie experience it would need more resolution than the current version of the Oculus, but it's getting there.

 

[KageMaru]

That was never my intent. My point is that brilliant and innovative new gaming experiences are totally possible right now. Why is it that he wants to rely on VR to deliver new experiences?

Oh ok, my mistake.

Well if you exclude motion control, this gen wasn't really innovative. What are the big games of the generation ? Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, Red Dead Redemption ? Those are good games, but very similar to games we already had last gen. Only bigger and prettier.

To be fair, bigger can bring many innovations. Assassins Creed wouldn't be the same game if it was on a last gen system.

 

[BlackBanditSho]

I should probably read through the thread, but those of you that know me, know that I've been on the HMD/VR/AR bandwagon cheerleading for a while now.

It's damn good to know that a guy of Carmack's calibre is starting to do some shit with it too - because it's this tech... lead by gamers - that will be the future of computing technology in general.

Forget tablets, forget desktops, forget all that other shit - this is true convergence.

Admittedly the first few iterations of a commercially successful mainstream product will be decidedly for at home use - but quickly enough, people will hack in smartphone support, and have this shit on the go.

All the software and UI redesign for the paradigm shift is going to be the biggest area for potential growth in software since the internet itself - bloody everything is going to change.

Just imagine any number of open world 'simulator' style games - GTA, Elder Scrolls, Dragon's Dogma... imagine them from this literal first person view. Instead of fucking through menus to retrieve items - you look down, see your belt with pouches hanging off - tap the pouch, it opens up Ultima style, and you fumble around in it to retrieve the item of choice.

I mean, it doesn't have to be 1 to 1 with reality - but it'll enable games that make you feel like you're there, but better (because you're not actually getting shot in the face).

This. Also, I love Carmack. Carmack + Valve = love. I want this on my home console. I will support the kickstarter to make this happen. RAGE was flawed, but was easily one of the best FPS games I've played this generation.

 

[mckmas8808]

Well if you exclude motion control, this gen wasn't really innovative. What are the big games of the generation ? Uncharted, Assassin's Creed, Gears of War, Red Dead Redemption ? Those are good games, but very similar to games we already had last gen. Only bigger and prettier.

I'd argue that Assassin's Creed and Red Dead wouldn't have been the same on the PS2 and Xbox. And why leave out so many games that were created and leave it only to the big games?

What about........

Little Big Planet

Flow

Journey

And that's just the PS3 games that I can think of that I personally played. There's more. And why leave out motion games?

 

[Metalmurphy]

LBP wouldn't have been possible on PS2. It's very physics heavy, not to mention all the network stuff.

 

[soulassssns]

Um, no shit Carmack.

You obviously do not see what he is trying to say.

 

[Alx]

I'd argue that Assassin's Creed and Red Dead wouldn't have been the same on the PS2 and Xbox. And why leave out so many games that were created and leave it only to the big games?

What about........

Little Big Planet
Flow
Journey

And that's just the PS3 games that I can think of that I personally played. There's more.

I stand corrected with LBP, though I wouldn't call it a generation-defining game. I can't really tell about Flow and Journey for lack of first hand experience. But I think of them more as artistic achievements than technical ones, similar experiences may have been realized on previous generations. And I specifically mentioned Assassin's Creed because it's one of the most innovative "big" games recently (and one that I enjoyed a lot), but it's still rather conservative.

Anyway, it's fortunate that whatever the times, there are always innovating games. But it doesn't make the whole generation innovative automatically. When I think of the previous generations, I can picture them as "the one with great 2D scrolling", "the one with the first 3D games", "the one with open worlds and online gaming".
When I think of this generation, all that comes to my mind is "the one in HD", or maybe "the one with motion controls" (see below).

And why leave out motion games?

Actually, I wouldn't. Motion games are the best things that happened to this generation, precisely because they were the most fresh and innovative thing that happened. It's not a very popular opinion on GAF, though, so I thought it best to keep it as a separate discussion and focus on "regular" games.

 

[mckmas8808]

I stand corrected with LBP, though I wouldn't call it a generation-defining game. I can't really tell about Flow and Journey for lack of first hand experience. But I think of them more as artistic achievements than technical ones, similar experiences may have been realized on previous generations. And I specifically mentioned Assassin's Creed because it's one of the most innovative "big" games recently (and one that I enjoyed a lot), but it's still rather conservative.

Anyway, it's fortunate that whatever the times, there are always innovating games. But it doesn't make the whole generation innovative automatically. When I think of the previous generations, I can picture them as "the one with great 2D scrolling", "the one with the first 3D games", "the one with open worlds and online gaming".
When I think of this generation, all that comes to my mind is "the one in HD", or maybe "the one with motion controls" (see below).

One "the one with the best indie games for a small downloadable cost" generation. Games like Limbo and Flower just didn't seem to exist last generation.

 

[KageMaru]

LBP wouldn't have been possible on PS2. It's very physics heavy, not to mention all the network stuff.

PSP version says you're wrong.

 

[RedSwirl]

The real innovations this gen have come from services and network infrastructure. The network infrastructure is the only reason LBP is only possible on current gen consoles (I would actually say the heavy physics-based gameplay is a detriment to it). Indie games like Journey also probably wouldn't have been possible on last gen consoles, but maybe on PC, and even then it wouldn't have gotten as much exposure. That however is just due to changes in the market, not hardware power.

If you're just talking about raw game design though, this gen is more or less last gen with nobs turned up. If you wanna get really technical, you could say this for gaming since the PS1 and N64, the main difference being that developers figured out proper 3D space controls last gen.

I don't think any real gameplay innovations are gonna come from hardware power alone next gen. It's probably mostly gonna be more advances in the service end of each platform. The rise of Free-to-Play gaming on consoles will probably be one of the most major changes that happen next gen.

 

[BlueTsunami]

I'd loved to see a large scale MMO accompanying this tech. As it is right now its hardware without strong software. Maybe a Minecraft'esque game.

 

[GungHo]

No, it's better if we get excited for his VR technology (with the resolution at crossroads for the moment), it's pretty cool I admit, but just don't be busting down doors yet John.

I will not get excited for VR anything until it drives VR sex machines, like was promised to me on Real Sex 25 years ago.

How much do you know exactly? He's the boss -- at least as far as the chain of command is concerned internally, right? He probably has the weight to green-light IPs and design choices. You can't excuse id's shortcomings by excusing Carmack. And, to a degree, the tech itself cannot be removed from design, no? You don't think Carmack deserves criticism?

No. If he was the boss, they'd all starve. John Carmack is an engineer. He tinkers with shit and makes it go. Then he moves on to the next project without a backward glance.

He reminds me of my grandfather, though my grandfather was a combat engineer and was a bit spooky if you ever anywhere around a bridge or large building with visiible supports. He got really good interest rates, though.

 

[Dan Yo]

I stand corrected with LBP, though I wouldn't call it a generation-defining game. I can't really tell about Flow and Journey for lack of first hand experience. But I think of them more as artistic achievements than technical ones, similar experiences may have been realized on previous generations. And I specifically mentioned Assassin's Creed because it's one of the most innovative "big" games recently (and one that I enjoyed a lot), but it's still rather conservative.

Anyway, it's fortunate that whatever the times, there are always innovating games. But it doesn't make the whole generation innovative automatically. When I think of the previous generations, I can picture them as "the one with great 2D scrolling", "the one with the first 3D games", "the one with open worlds and online gaming".
When I think of this generation, all that comes to my mind is "the one in HD", or maybe "the one with motion controls" (see below).

You'd have to be a pretty short-sighted person to not see how the hardware of today can create experiences that the hardware of the PS2 generation couldn't.

You can argue that the top games of today were possible on the PS2 (and you'd be wrong), but if you want to call any generation of consoles the online generation, then this would be it. Not last generation. With the advent of XBLA, digital distribution, and the indie scene, you have all sorts of new types of games to play and experiences to have that just weren't there in the PS2 generation.

For the record, the PS2 generation was not the generation of open worlds and online gaming, as that had been going on long before.

I still dream of a game where you can have a massive open city, while an invasion is occurring and thousands of pedestrians are fleeing in the streets. The environments are destructible and buildings are crumbling. Pieces of debris falling and bouncing everywhere realistically .....

Until something like that can happen, and a developer can basically let his imagination run wild and the hardware will allow him to create virtually any scenario that plays in his mind without having to worry about whether or not the system can handle it, then hardware is not yet ready to stagnate.

 

[Metalmurphy]

PSP version says you're wrong.

1 player, and even though it still uses PSN, it's network features are WAY limited. It's hardly the same game.

 

[KageMaru]

1 player, and even though it still uses PSN, it's network features are WAY limited. It's hardly the same game.

None of that changes the fact that the game would be possible on the ps2. All you're doing here is moving the goal post to support your original post.

 

[Metalmurphy]

None of that changes the fact that the game would be possible on the ps2. All you're doing here is moving the goal post to support your original post.

What? If you strip it of everything what made LBP such a big deal then yeah it would. But then again, so could any game if you did the same.