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Actress Daniele Watts reported for lewd acts, goes nuts at police investigating

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Maybe, just maybe, you're projecting a bit much here. Sheesh. Way to unfairly characterize your fellow forum goers as unfeeling robots with racist tendencies.

Geez what are you even bolding.

The first sentence applies to a lot of people in threads like this.
Not everyone.

My problem with the majority of Gaf's "wait and see" crowd is that I feel they only want to be hyper rational and hyper robotic

Not everyone
Yes there are some people here who are known to be hyper rational or contrarian for contrarians sake, but by and large most posters form an immediate opinion on a story regardless of race. Of all the news stories posted how many times do posters chime in with "let's wait and see"
again, not everyone.
I feel as if a good amount of these people don't believe that racism and prejudice are as rampant as they really are.

not everyone
But I do think that subconsciously a lot of the people who hold that mentality do not afford the benefit of the doubt to blacks the same way they do to whites especially in relation to state enforced oppression.
Not everyone.
And I wasn't calling Kharvey racist. Everyone familiar with him knows he's a contrarian for contrarian's sake and he justs likes to argue.
 
Wow there's a lot more audio here than what TMZ posted a few days ago, We can hear the full conversation between the cop and the boyfriend, the bf does not give a fuck at all...Haha! He is trying to make buddies with the cop... Sounds like the saddest relationship considering they've been dating for 15 months. lol!

ikr lol. He's like "please understand, this girl is crazy, but man the sex is off the chain". The cop sounds like a great guy, the banter with the bf alone points to that. Super chill. He even shoots the shit with him about his raw food chef stuff. That guy needs to fly the coop and get far away from her, shit just gonna get nastier and possibly hurt his career.
 

Opiate

Member
I don't really need to argue the merits of every single point of the analogy. Secondly he wrote "It may feel to them as if" ... So you are now the arbiter of what an oppressed class may be feeling? Gotcha.

Anyway, barring the house analogy everything he said was more accurate than not. The first sentence applies to a lot of people in threads like this. They have extraordinary reserves of doubt, hyper rationality and barely any empathy. Whereas in similar situations with people they can empathize with their comments and reactions are drastically informed by that empathy and their doubt tends to take a back seat.

Lacking empathy, they tend to be hyper rational, ready and waiting for debate on every single point possible -- which again, there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself, it's just a little odd to witness it happen with black victims more often than not.

But you already know this and I'm very familiar with your brand of discourse.

I find it insulting when people believe those who are "hyper rational" -- which I can only assume by its language is intended to be an insult, as if people should be ashamed of applying reason -- are lacking in empathy.

I can say, personally, that I am not. It takes a great deal of effort to suppress that emotional, empathetic response. I do so because it is more reasonable and more fair, and not because my emotional response does not exist.

I think the people you are talking about are not being reasonable at all: instead, they are engaging in a highly emotional response which they disguise as "reason." While you have an instinctive emotional response to defend the actress here, others have an instinctive emotional response to defend the police officer. I agree, I think some people disguise that instinctive emotional response with a thin veneer of "reason," but it's not actually reasonable. As you also insightfully point out, they only seem to apply this "reason" when it suits their agenda, and will be quick to jump to emotional conclusions whenever that suits their agenda instead.
 

Cagey

Banned
You're playing semantics now to defend a terrible, indefensible position. You didn't say "everyone". You repeatedly used words such as "most", "many", "lots", and the phrase "good amount". You're correct. You didn't say all.

Therefore, you're calling most, many, and lots of your fellow forum goers who would have the approach you criticize as lacking empathy due to subconscious racial bias. Not all! Not everyone! But most, many, lots do.

Is that a position you're willing to stand by? You didn't call out everyone with the "rational" approach you criticize as subconsciously racist, but merely most, many, lots, and a good amount of them?
 
Is your argument that those asking for people to wait on or more objectively consider the facts are motivated, consciously or subconsciously, by racial biases? Because that kind of accusation would require justification, and simply arguing such a thing exist is not that.

Do you contend that subconscious racial biases don't exist? Aren't prevalent among pretty much every single human being? That seems to require justification as well.
 
What I am getting from your posts is that you believe that the people who wanted to wait for more information were still racists for doing so, and just got lucky that this woman turned out to be wrong in the end.
Well you'd be wrong. I've never said anyone was racist. The most I said was this:
My problem is that society has data proven bias against blacks and Neogaf is no different. I am not calling the "let's wait and see" crowd racist. But I do think that subconsciously a lot of the people who hold that mentality do not afford the benefit of the doubt to blacks the same way they do to whites especially in relation to state enforced oppression.
 

Infinite

Member
I really don't understand what's with this silly apprehension toward showing ID. To me, photo id itself was the compromise so the officials don't have to drag you down to the police station and conduct full inquiry. May be in some third world countries, corrupt officials will use it to hunt down your family or something. But in most case it just says your name and address, and they mostly use it as some formality so the cops don't have to go the full length of booking people into jail.

If you have a valid ID, it seems like a silly proposition to make a grand stand on.

Yeah cops can't legally do this with out reasonable suspicion. It's all about due process.
 
You're playing semantics now to defend a terrible, indefensible position. You didn't say "everyone". You repeatedly used words such as "most", "many", "lots", and the phrase "good amount". You're correct. You didn't say all.

Therefore, you're calling most, many, and lots of your fellow forum goers who would have the approach you criticize as lacking empathy due to subconscious racial bias. Not all! Not everyone! But most, many, lots do.

Is that a position you're willing to stand by? You didn't call out everyone with the "rational" approach you criticize as subconsciously racist, but merely most, many, lots, and a good amount of them?

Having subconscious bias is not the mark of a racist.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
Well you'd be wrong. I've never said anyone was racist. The most I said was this:

This "I'm not calling them racists, but..." statement you quoted is basically calling them racists. Affording one race the benefit of the doubt while not affording it to another, because of their race, is racism.

Edit: looks like you're going with the whole "I didn't say they were racist, I said they have racist tendencies" thing. Ok, that's fine. Not worth engaging further.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
Geez what are you even bolding.
The parts where I think you are trying too hard to find a boogeyman.

Not everyone.
Way to unfairly characterize your fellow forum goers as unfeeling robots with racist tendencies.
I didn't say "ALL" your fellow forum goers. Besides, you characterize "most" of "those people" based on your feelings and what you think their ulterior motives are. Not a good plan of action, for someone who supposedly holds "empathy" in such high regard.

And I wasn't calling Kharvey racist. Everyone familiar with him knows he's a contrarian for contrarian's sake and he justs likes to argue.
Mmmhmmm...no.

And I didn't say you called him a 'racist'. I said you were quick to characterize him and others as robots with racist tendencies, which you did.

it's just a little odd to witness it happen with black victims more often than not.

But you already know this and I'm very familiar with your brand of discourse.
 
This "I'm not calling them racists, but..." statement you quoted is basically calling them racists. Affording one race the benefit of the doubt while not affording it to another, because of their race, is racism.

No it wasn't. If you can't see that I really don't know what to say to you.
 
Man that full recording really illustrates just how restrained and chill the officer is. Even AFTER her teary display he just starts casually talking about some guy he pulled over the previous day that had a bad burn on his arm. Really just another day at the "office" for him. I also love his reaction to her "you're going to be on TV", "I've been on TV many times" lol.
 

KHarvey16

Member
And I wasn't calling Kharvey racist. Everyone familiar with him knows he's a contrarian for contrarian's sake and he justs likes to argue.

That's awfully convenient minimization. Oh the arguments can be ignored, it's just a contrary position for the sake of it!

Either the arguments are good or they aren't. Attempting to jump to the motivation without addressing the validity is desperation.

Do you contend that subconscious racial biases don't exist? Aren't prevalent among pretty much every single human being? That seems to require justification as well.

What makes you think I'm suggesting it doesn't exist? If I were to say speeding exists I still need to show justification that a particular individual was speeding, no?
 
That's awfully convenient minimization. Oh the arguments can be ignored, it's just a contrary position for the sake of it!

Either the arguments are good or they aren't. Attempting to jump to the motivation without addressing the validity is desperation.



What makes you think I'm suggesting it doesn't exist? If I were to say speeding exists I still need to show justification that a particular individual was speeding, no?

Think more about the term subconscious.
 

Opiate

Member
I definitely agree with Foxy that some people who claim to be employing reason are really just being authoritarian, and disguising that tendency (perhaps subconsciously) with a "wait and see, let's be reasonable" approach.

But that is not reasonable. They say they're using reason, but they're not. For some, it's an entirely emotional, highly motivated response: they have authoritarian sympathies, and thus jump to whatever argument could best defend those sympathies given the current situation. In this specific case -- before we had all the details -- the best way to have defended the authorities was to say "let's wait and see, don't be hasty with your conclusions," and so that's the argument they would jump to for this particular situation.

You really need more context to know about any specific, given person. Do they apply their "wait and see, we need more evidence" approach consistently, or do they only apply that logic when it suits their preconceived notions? If a specific person seems to apply this supposedly reasonable/objective approach only when it suits them, then they aren't actually being reasonable at all. If they apply it uniformly and even when it's far easier for them to jump to the most immediate conclusion, then that person is indeed being rational and should be applauded for it.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
And I wasn't calling Kharvey racist. Everyone familiar with him knows he's a contrarian for contrarian's sake and he justs likes to argue.

A couple more points to supplement:

Granted, there are people who do fit the description of behavior that you posted about, and there may be some on GAF. I feel, however, that you may be a little too eager in trying to find them - which leads to sometimes erroneously seeing things that aren't there. If this leads to unfairly characterizing people as having racist tendencies - people we know and interact with all the time on this board and who are decent posters - then that is pretty rude.

Being "rational" isn't necessarily a bad thing. Neither is being "hyper" rational, whatever that is.
 
I find it insulting when people believe those who are "hyper rational" -- which I can only assume by its language is intended to be an insult, as if people should be ashamed of applying reason -- are lacking in empathy.

I can say, personally, that I am not. It takes a great deal of effort to suppress that emotional, empathetic response. I do so because it is more reasonable and more fair, and not because my emotional response does not exist.

I think the people you are talking about are not being reasonable at all: instead, they are engaging in a highly emotional response which they disguise as "reason." While you have an instinctive emotional response to defend the actress here, others have an instinctive emotional response to defend the police officer. I agree, I think some people disguise that instinctive emotional response with a thin veneer of "reason," but it's not actually reasonable. As you also insightfully point out, they only seem to apply this "reason" when it suits their agenda, and will be quick to jump to emotional conclusions whenever that suits their agenda instead.

I don't think people who are hyper rational lack empathy. But I do agree with your last paragraph. People tend to use hyper rational objectivity specifically when dealing with other races -- which my many links support.

The parts where I think you are trying too hard to find a boogeyman.



I didn't say "ALL" your fellow forum goers. Besides, you characterize "most" of "those people" based on your feelings and what you think their ulterior motives are. Not a good plan of action, for someone who supposedly holds "empathy" in such high regard.


Mmmhmmm...no.

And I didn't say you called him a 'racist'. I said you were quick to characterize him and others as robots with racist tendencies, which you did.

Me and Kharvey have argued often. I always call him out for arguing for arguments sake. Matter of fact when I brought up contrarians I specifically was thinking about Kharvey. I really don't care if you think I was calling him a robot with racist tendencies. In my mind Kharvey is part of the group that debates for the sake of the debate. I don't view him as a racist. So if you want to paint me as thinking all of the "wait and see" crowd are racist that's fine. At least that way and you don't really have to dissect my stance and can just call me some crazy guy who thinks everyone is a racist.

Again:


I don't see where I'm calling the wait and see crowd racist; moreover, I posted numerous studies that aren't full of racist crazies yet that subconscious bias still exists ... in everyone.
 

Vyrance

Member
Wow this story certainly turned around, lol. Not sure what the hell they were thinking just going at it in the car, in daylight, right next to a lot of people who could clearly see them. Damn lol.
 
I definitely agree with Foxy that some people who claim to be employing reason are really just being authoritarian, and disguising that tendency (perhaps subconsciously) with a "wait and see, let's be reasonable" approach.

But that is not reasonable. They say they're using reason, but they're not. That's actually a very emotional response: they have authoritarian tendencies, and thus jump to whatever argument could best defend their instinctive response given the current situation. In this specific case, the best way to defend the authorities is to say "let's wait and see, don't be hasty with your conclusions," and so that's the argument they jump to for this situation. You really need more context to know about any specific, given person. Do they apply their "wait and see, we need more evidence" approach consistently, or do they only apply that logic when it suits their preconceived notions?

If a specific person seems to apply this reasonable, objective approach only when it suits them, then they aren't actually being reasonable at all. If they apply it uniformly and even when it's far easier for them to jump to the most immediate conclusion, then that person is indeed being rational and should be applauded for it.

I agree with this for the most part. And I think that there are some well known posters who do apply this logic evenly, even if their points are not necessarily salient. But I also believe, as demonstrated by the links I posted and numerous other studies, that this (subconscious bias against) most likely happens more often than not.

edit: What I find disturbing is that even though I posted many reputable articles and studies that support the idea of subconscious bias many posters here are ignoring them outright and are acting as if I'm calling everyone a racist. I find that laughable and extremely obtuse. To assume that everyone in those studies are racist or have racist tendencies would defeat the entire point of me posting the study. Racists are racist. News at 11.
 

Opiate

Member
I agree with this for the most part. And I think that there are some well known posters who do apply this logic evenly, even if their points are not necessarily salient. But I also believe, as demonstrated by the links I posted and numerous other studies, that this (subconscious bias against) most likely happens more often than not.

I think every single person in the world has some subconscious biases. Not necessarily against a race, or culture, or religious group -- although I think the vast majority of people do have at least some subconscious bias against one of those groups -- but against someone doing something. Maybe you have a subconscious grudge against BMW drivers because you met a jerk who drove one once; maybe the Wall Street Journal wrote a piece you don't like once and now you always read their articles a little differently. The subconscious accounts for the majority of human processing, so of course there will be things going on down there that all of us aren't aware of.

And to take this idea further, I think there are those who subconsciously distrust authority automatically. I think you'd find some people who will hear an anecdotal story of cops being mistreated and insist on a "rational" approach -- rejecting anecdotal evidence -- who will then turn around and immediately swallow a story whole if it happens to put police in a more negative light. This person is also not actually rational; he's just quick to believe stories that reinforce his preconceived beliefs, and very wary of any story which counters those beliefs instead. I think you're likely right that there are more people who implicitly trust authorities than those who implicitly mistrust them, but it's hard to know for sure, since -- as you astutely point out -- almost all of this is subconscious.
 
Huh? This is terrible reasoning. You obviously still need to demonstrate a particular person is being influenced this way.

The whole point is that it doesn't really happen on an objectively measurable scale when looking at one action by one individual. It's only when you look at the broader picture that you see these trends develop. That's why, even though you can look at any one of a number of hiring managers and say "this person was not consciously being racist" when deciding who to give an interview to, all of a sudden Juan starts getting more callbacks when he changes his name to John on his resume.

That's also why you should stop being so defensive and act like you've been challenged to a duel just because someone points out this underlying effect. No one is accusing anyone of being the cop from Crash. They're just pointing out that every single human being has ingrained biases, one of them racial, and that those biases can subtly affect their interactions with people of other races in ways that they might not consciously be aware of.

To me at least that's not a horrible thing to be accused of. It's just human nature. The real problem, to me, is if you are confronted with that fact but refuse to believe it, and think that you are somehow above it.
 

KHarvey16

Member
In the end, though, you potentially have subconscious racism leading to more reasoning, opposed by the emotion generated by controversial topics we should all empathize regarding. I don't understand exactly how that improves or even serves as a foundation for arguing against some identified problem. If a person is unevenly applying reason or objectivity, ok...but what is that saying about the particular position or argument they're presenting? It doesn't invalidate it even if their prejudice when applying reason is demonstrable. It's essentially a meta discussion and not related at all to the validity of any particular point being made within the context of the thread.
 

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
So if you want to paint me as thinking all of the "wait and see" crowd are racist that's fine. At least that way and you don't really have to dissect my stance and can just call me some crazy guy who thinks everyone is a racist.

Erm, I made it clear multiple times to point out that I wasn't saying you're calling everyone a 'racist'. You're attributing racist tendencies to certain people who you think lack empathy. Like you wrote.
 
And now I've pointed out to you that your position has yet to be justified. Would you prefer we allow empathy to dissolve your burden?
I think the Bryan has aptly responded.
Erm, I made it clear multiple times to point out that I wasn't saying you're calling everyone a 'racist'. You're attributing racist tendencies to certain people who you think lack empathy. Like you wrote.

I don't think it's necessarily a racist tendency. That's your problem. You're still not understanding. See my posts above and read what Opiate's been posting.

also:
TheBryanJZX90 said:
To me at least that's not a horrible thing to be accused of. It's just human nature. The real problem, to me, is if you are confronted with that fact but refuse to believe it, and think that you are somehow above it.
 

BennyBlanco

aka IMurRIVAL69
That audio tape. Wow. Why is she throwing a shit fit? Just show him your fucking ID. Crying, pulling the race card, "I have a publicist (i'm very important)", all that extra shit was so unnecessary. I thought the cop handled it really well. "I'd already be gone." Lmao.
 

KHarvey16

Member
The whole point is that it doesn't really happen on an objectively measurable scale when looking at one action by one individual. It's only when you look at the broader picture that you see these trends develop. That's why, even though you can look at any one of a number of hiring managers and say "this person was not consciously being racist" when deciding who to give an interview to, all of a sudden Juan starts getting more callbacks when he changes his name to John on his resume.

That's also why you should stop being so defensive and act like you've been challenged to a duel just because someone points out this underlying effect. No one is accusing anyone of being the cop from Crash. They're just pointing out that every single human being has ingrained biases, one of them racial, and that those biases can subtly affect their interactions with people of other races in ways that they might not consciously be aware of.

To me at least that's not a horrible thing to be accused of. It's just human nature. The real problem, to me, is if you are confronted with that fact but refuse to believe it, and think that you are somehow above it.

It's been asserted some posters may be holding a position because of subconscious biases. Asking for this to be justified is not defensive or arguing the underlying phenomena of subconscious biases, racial or otherwise, do not exist. It's pointing out that existence is not sufficient to critique or refute or call into question a position using the concept.
 
I think every single person in the world has some subconscious biases. Not necessarily against a race, or culture, or religious group -- although I think the vast majority of people do have at least some subconscious bias against one of those groups -- but against someone doing something. Maybe you have a subconscious grudge against BMW drivers because you met a jerk who drove one once; maybe the Wall Street Journal wrote a piece you don't like once and now you always read their articles a little differently. The subconscious accounts for the majority of human processing, so of course there will be things going on down there that all of us aren't aware of.

And to take this idea further, I think there are those who subconsciously distrust authority automatically. I think you'd find some people who will hear an anecdotal story of cops being mistreated and insist on a "rational" approach -- rejecting anecdotal evidence -- who will then turn around and immediately swallow a story whole if it happens to put police in a more negative light. This person is also not actually rational; he's just quick to believe stories that reinforce his preconceived beliefs, and very wary of any story which counters those beliefs instead. I think you're likely right that there are more people who implicitly trust authorities than those who implicitly mistrust them, but it's hard to know for sure, since -- as you astutely point out -- almost all of this is subconscious.

I suppose then, knowing how hard it is to determine if a person is not being genuine with a rational "reserved judgement" approach without some prior knowledge of the user, we can agree it is detrimental to a discussion topic to call out or attack a person for taking this stance?
 

pants

Member
In the end, though, you potentially have subconscious racism leading to more reasoning, opposed by the emotion generated by controversial topics we should all empathize regarding. I don't understand exactly how that improves or even serves as a foundation for arguing against some identified problem. If a person is unevenly applying reason or objectivity, ok...but what is that saying about the particular position or argument they're presenting? It doesn't invalidate it even if their prejudice when applying reason is demonstrable. It's essentially a meta discussion and not related at all to the validity of any particular point being made within the context of the thread.

Some people dont actually want to present sources/reasoning to back up their claims because it's a hassle, yet they feel very attached to certain topics and vested in particular outcomes. Well let me qualify that properly, many people dont, including myself half the time. So a challenge/contrary viewpoint will be labeled and written off lazily cause it's easier. The people I most like to read on neogaf are people like Mumei etc that fleshes out and source their point, I may not always agree but I do enjoy reading and learning from posts of that caliber.

Note I'm applying this to people on any side of a discussion, it's a very human thing to do.
 
It's been asserted some posters may be holding a position because of subconscious biases. Asking for this to be justified is not defensive or arguing the underlying phenomena of subconscious biases, racial or otherwise, do not exist. It's pointing out that existence is not sufficient to critique or refute or call into question a position using the concept.

To use your previous analogy, the average rate of speed on all cars on a stretch of highway being over the speed limit, alone, wouldn't be enough to prove that any one individual driver was speeding. But surely you would accept that evidence as proof that some cars were going over the limit?
 

Opiate

Member
In the end, though, you potentially have subconscious racism leading to more reasoning, opposed by the emotion generated by controversial topics we should all empathize regarding. I don't understand exactly how that improves or even serves as a foundation for arguing against some identified problem. If a person is unevenly applying reason or objectivity, ok...but what is that saying about the particular position or argument they're presenting? It doesn't invalidate it even if their prejudice when applying reason is demonstrable. It's essentially a meta discussion and not related at all to the validity of any particular point being made within the context of the thread.

If you unevenly apply reasoning, then you aren't being reasonable at all. At that point, you're jumping to whatever argument happens to suit your position at the time. In some cases, that may mean you jump to a position that looks reasonable. That doesn't make the actual process you used reasonable; you reached the right conclusion using the wrong method.

What's really great about reason, in the end, is that applies even in cases when you really wish it wouldn't. It forces you to agree to things when your personal gut response is "I really wish that weren't true." If people abandon reason when it's no longer convenient for them, then they subvert the chief virtue that reason offers over just believing whatever you want as it suits you.
 

KHarvey16

Member
To use your previous analogy, the average rate of speed on all cars on a stretch of highway being over the speed limit, alone, wouldn't be enough to prove that any one individual driver was speeding. But surely you would accept that evidence as proof that some cars were going over the limit?

The road in that analogy is a restriction, so in this case GAF is the road. You nor I have any idea what the prevalence of subconscious racial bias is in this population, and more specifically in OT or any particular topic. Further complicating the analogy is you can't assume the prevalence of such biases in the general population applies to a specific one like GAF. Does membership correlate with higher or lower prevalence?

But even if we grant that and say that the chances are some do have these subconscious biases that still has no impact on any particular position or opinion unless and until that bias is demonstrated to be there. And then, as I said, you've simply shown that rationality may be applied because of race. What impact would that have on the quality of the argument that resulted from the hightened application of reason?
 

Dash27

Member
Can I have an abridged version of all that's happened?

I think the best and most concise version of what happened can be distilled down to this:

http://www.tmz.com/2014/09/17/django-unchained-actress-racism-lapd-daniele-watts-pictures-photos/

The eyewitnesses say Brian then began "horizontally bongoing her boobs back and forth." He says she eventually reached into the center console, grabbed a tissue, wiped him down and then herself and tossed it on the grass.

Oh then the cops came, she called her dad and they got all upset and accused the cops of being racist and calling them hookers or something.
 

KHarvey16

Member
If you unevenly apply reasoning, then you aren't being reasonable at all. At that point, you're jumping to whatever argument happens to suit your position at the time. In some cases, that may mean you jump to a position that looks reasonable. That doesn't make the actual process you used reasonable; you reached the right conclusion using the wrong method.

What's really great about reason, in the end, is that applies even in cases when you really wish it wouldn't. It forces you to agree to things when your personal gut response is "I really wish that weren't true." If people abandon reason when it's no longer convenient for them, then they subvert the chief virtue that reason offers over just doing whatever you want as it suits you.

I don't know that I agree. Positions are reasonable, not people. If a desire to be reasonable is inspired by the full moon or waking up on your left side, the resulting thought processes are still reasonable (or not I suppose if your application of reason is flawed, but not because of what made you think to be reasonable). You may not be reasonable in other cases and that decision to not apply reason equally may itself be unreasonable, but again, that's meta commentary in the context of this topic.

I would argue the basis or inspiration for holding a particular position is irrelevant to the question of validity. There's value in understanding why people think the way they do, but only for reasons other than determining the viability of any particular position.
 

Hesemonni

Banned
Listening to the audio the cop handled the situation amazingly well. Being polite, calm and generally being in control. I can only imagine the zen training the guy goes through to put up with people like ms Watts.

All law enforcement personnel should carry recording devices like this to protect all the parties involved. Actually, why don't they?
 
So who had the recording device?

Just listened to the audio, man, she went a little nuts.

Can't believe she didn't just drop it after the fact. Backfire!
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
Listening to the audio the cop handled the situation amazingly well. Being polite, calm and generally being in control. I can only imagine the zen training the guy goes through to put up with people like ms Watts.

All law enforcement personnel should carry recording devices like this to protect all the parties involved. Actually, why don't they?

Honestly, it must have taken all of his willpower to not egg her on for amusement. That is certainly what I would have done.

And agreed on the mandatory recording. The knowledge that the engagement is being recorded can do a lot to keep both the officer and the citizen honest.
 

jimbosimbo43

Neo Member
if a police officer asked me for for ID, id give it to them no questions asked.

If i was a cop and someone refused to show me ID, that automatically sets off alarm bells. As opposed to someone who willingly hands it over straight away.

I don't think this is racial, and i don't think the officer was in the wrong. Just doing his job.
 

wildfire

Banned
Pictures of them getting it on...prob nsfw

http://www.tmz.com/2014/09/17/django-unchained-actress-racism-lapd-daniele-watts-pictures-photos/

smh...why would you do this in BROAD daylight and theres a sidewalk a few feet away.

Well and there we go. They were having sex in public. I don't mind trying to get away with this discreetly but if you are caught and try to pretend otherwise that's just poor form. The fact they tried blowing this up into a social injustice problem crosses into scumbag territory.

My opinion has fully turned around on these two.
 
Well put, and I pretty much agree with everything you said. This certainly isn't a court of law; I wouldn't expect us to wait for Exhibit A to be entered into evidence before talking about the contents of Exhibit A. But wouldn't you agree that there should be some standard of supporting evidence before we impugn a person's character? Surely we can aim for a middle ground, somewhere between gathering pitchforks the instant an accusation is posted on Facebook and having to avoid leading the witness.

Also, I agree with you that people are emotional creatures. I'm not advocating that we suck all emotion out of the forum, nor am I advocating we can't reach preliminary inferences, as long as they're based on more than an accusation and we acknowledge they're subject to change. But regarding emotion, I don't really have a position for what amount is the "right" amount. I'm just saying that, whatever amount of emotion and snark the forum/mods choose to allow or disallow, the same standard should be applied equally to both those voicing the majority opinion and those voicing the minority opinion. If majority snark is allowed, minority snark should be, too. If minority snark is bannable, majority snark should be, too.

When majority snark is allowed but minority snark is banned, not only does it shift membership numbers to strengthen the status quo, it also makes those expressing majority snark strengthen their resolve to reject other viewpoints, because if the mods agree with me and 30 other posters, I must be right.

Again, I agree that we can't always wait for ALL the information. But at the very least we need a response from the accused, unless there's some obvious video implication like in that Baltimore cop thread.

I suppose that's reasonable. At the same time, there's something to be said for Occam's Razor. When one situation is simply more likely than the other, it's more reasonable to go in that direction. I don't even think that the deniers or moderates suggested that Watts was outright lying, as that's something that could be so career damaging.

That said, I somewhat agree with you on the emotional outbursts from the majority. They're not *that* common, and I can understand where the anger comes from, but certain posts in recent race threads that are particularly prejudiced against white people are pretty bad. I personally don't agree with shit like that at all.
 

PogiJones

Banned
If you unevenly apply reasoning, then you aren't being reasonable at all. At that point, you're jumping to whatever argument happens to suit your position at the time. In some cases, that may mean you jump to a position that looks reasonable. That doesn't make the actual process you used reasonable; you reached the right conclusion using the wrong method.

What's really great about reason, in the end, is that applies even in cases when you really wish it wouldn't. It forces you to agree to things when your personal gut response is "I really wish that weren't true." If people abandon reason when it's no longer convenient for them, then they subvert the chief virtue that reason offers over just believing whatever you want as it suits you.

I don't know that I agree. Positions are reasonable, not people. If a desire to be reasonable is inspired by the full moon or waking up on your left side, the resulting thought processes are still reasonable (or not I suppose if your application of reason is flawed, but not because of what made you think to be reasonable). You may not be reasonable in other cases and that decision to not apply reason equally may itself be unreasonable, but again, that's meta commentary in the context of this topic.

I would argue the basis or inspiration for holding a particular position is irrelevant to the question of validity. There's value in understanding why people think the way they do, but only for reasons other than determining the viability of any particular position.

It looks to me like you're both talking about two related but different things. Opiate is talking about how to be a reasonable person, while KHarvey16 is talking about how to address a reasonable argument. A poster's motive and balance is important to Opiate's focus, being a reasonable person. But another poster's motive and balance is completely irrelevant to the merits of their argument that you're addressing, which is what Kharvey16 is talking about. So you're both right in your respective arguments, which are not actually conflicting.

I suspect this difference of angle arose because KHarvey16 is approaching this from the perspective of a poster, who is solely dealing with others' arguments, not their character. Opiate, on the other hand, is approaching this from the perspective of a mod, who sometimes must judge the... let's call it the "aggregate quality" of a poster. Deciding whether to ban someone is generally a judgment of whether they personally have been and will be good or bad for the forum. Thus, you tend to focus not on the reasonableness of a single argument, but rather on the general reasonableness of the person making the argument.

Having said that, while I think the overall aggregate reasonableness a person's arguments is fair game for determining bans, I don't think an internal bias you infer (read: assume) based on those arguments should be grounds for moderation. In fact, reasoned and logical bias--particularly when there's an equally biased and logical opposite--is often the most effective tool for bringing to the community's attention the hard-to-miss-yet-relevant weaknesses in the opposite side's stance. In fact, our entire judicial system is based on this biased-yet-logical advocacy.

Again, I know this isn't a court room, but there are valuable principles we can derive from a system built and evolved over centuries with the sole purpose of determining truth.

We don't just have everyone (police, witnesses, etc.) hand everything over to a judge and jury, and have them parse out truth--even though a judge is extensively trained in such matters and is as close to an impartial party as we can get. Instead, to bring out all the strengths and weaknesses of both sides, we hire biased advocates trained in logic and reason to represent each side. We don't WANT lawyers to be impartial. We've found in our system that two opposing biased-yet-logical advocates is the best way to bring out truth. It's certainly not perfect, but it's the best we've found so far.

So, Opiate, I think KHarvey's argument should apply partially to what you were arguing, as well. Regardless of a person's motives and biases, if their reasoning is consistently sound in the arguments they make, they're a benefit to the community, even if the opposite side finds them annoying, and infers nasty prejudices in their character. It's always annoying to hear the weaknesses in the side you subscribe to--which is why lawyers often get on each others' nerves. But that doesn't mean hearing those weaknesses isn't good for the community--it is, as long as the weaknesses are presented with sound reasoning.
 
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