• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Actress Daniele Watts reported for lewd acts, goes nuts at police investigating

Status
Not open for further replies.

studyguy

Member
California isn't a stop and Identify iirc, but a number of groups suggest being cooperative anyway if only for your own safety

Some legal organizations, such as the National Lawyers Guild and the ACLU of Northern California, recommend to either remain silent or to identify oneself whether or not a jurisdiction has a "stop and identify" law:

And in any state, police do not always follow the law, and refusing to give your name may make them suspicious and lead to your arrest, so use your judgment. If you fear that your name may be incriminating, you can claim the right to remain silent, and if you are arrested, this may help you later. Giving a false name could be a crime.

In a more recent pamphlet, the ACLU of Northern California elaborated on this further, recommending that a person detained by police should:

. . . give your name and the information on your drivers’ license. If you don’t, you may be arrested, even though the arrest may be illegal.

Personally I would expect to get detained if only temporarily while they verified my identity if I refused and they for some reason and they were adamant about checking it. I don't need to attention as a minority so I'd rather just go ahead with it.
 
California isn't a stop and Identify iirc, but a number of groups suggest being cooperative anyway if only for your own safety



Personally I would expect to get detained if only temporarily while they verified my identity if I refused and they for some reason and they were adamant about checking it. I don't need to attention as a minority so I'd rather just go ahead with it.

I could be wrong, but I don't think this qualifies as 'stop and identify', as the cop was responding to a specific call about two people having sex in a parked car. Watts and her boyfriend matched the description, so in that sense it wouldn't be classified as a situation where you can refuse to show your I.D.

I'm no law expert, correct me if I'm wrong...
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
I could be wrong, but I don't think this qualifies as 'stop and identify', as the cop was responding to a specific call about two people having sex in a parked car. Watts and her boyfriend matched the description, so in that sense it wouldn't be classified as a situation where you can refuse to show your I.D.

I'm no law expert, correct me if I'm wrong...

No, you're 100% right.
 

lednerg

Member
You make a good point, but this is one of those times where the phrase "consider the source" should be echoed.

Variety didn't even bother to get a formal statement. They pulled information from Facebook of all places and ran a story as fact.

How is that acceptable enough as a source or basis to run a story claiming an actress was racially profiled by police with only one side of the story?

The beginning posts echoed the same sentiment of fuck the cops based on a shit story from only one perspective, which makes me question if people on NeoGAF actually read the stories posted in threads or want to posture and go along with the angry sentiment without reading how the story is presented.

The discussion was by and large about ID and the laws pertaining to it. Yes, her story was used as the jumping off point, but that doesn't actually mean anything one way or the other.

There were also a bunch of 'fuck the police' posts, but so what? People were having an emotional response to a bad story. You have to ask how important it is to you that everyone remain calm and logical. For me, it doesn't matter. In the end, the truth came out and we moved on.
 

freddy

Banned
There were also a bunch of 'fuck the police' posts, but so what? People were having an emotional response to a bad story. You have to ask how important it is for you that everyone remain calm and logical. For me, it doesn't matter. In the end, the truth came out and we moved on.

That's fine unless it involves piling on people hoping to get them banned.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
There were also a bunch of 'fuck the police' posts, but so what? People were having an emotional response to a bad story. You have to ask how important it is to you that everyone remain calm and logical. For me, it doesn't matter. In the end, the truth came out and we moved on.

The problem, once again, is that posters were being attacked for holding the "let's wait for the whole story" stance, and one even got banned for it.
 

lednerg

Member
That's fine unless it involves piling on people hoping to get them banned.

And if I was one of those guys, I guess I'd own up to it and apologize. We're not a hivemind in here. Just because a couple people were being obnoxious doesn't mean "GAF" was being obnoxious.
 

freddy

Banned
And if I was one of those guys, I guess I'd own up to it and apologize. We're not a hivemind in here. Just because a couple people were being obnoxious doesn't mean "GAF" was being obnoxious.

How did you get that from my post? I never said all of GAF. I didn't accuse you either I was addressing the part of your post I quoted. I mean you're even quoting GAF like I said GAF.
 

lednerg

Member
How did you get that from my post? I never said all of GAF. I didn't accuse you either I was addressing the part of your post I quoted. I mean you're even quoting GAF like I said GAF.

I was referring to what I was responding to (DoktorEvil's post).
 

freddy

Banned
I was referring to what I was responding to.
Ah ok, I see it it now. Wasn't following on from that convo but I was only saying while I understand the emotion, when it spills over into a witch hunt the forum sucks. No matter how many are involved in it.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
Which response will satisfy you

"Institutionalized racism may exist once enough data has been gathered"

You can believe that institutional racism exists without starting a witch hunt at the outbreak of every story. You are conflating "I'll wait until there is corroborated evidence before personally declaring that this particular event is an example of institutional racism" and "Since I'm not immediately jumping to conclusions here, it means I obviously don't believe that institutional racism exists." I don't know whether you are projecting because you personally pile on the authorities because you assume that they must be in the wrong, and so you assume that the "wait and see" posters are doing the same for the possible victim.

I agree that the "WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE FACTS" posts don't really contribute to the the discussion, but neither does the "fuck the police" circlejerk that piles on everyone who isn't a part of it, regardless of what the facts end up being.
 
I agree that the "WE DON'T HAVE ALL THE FACTS" posts don't really contribute to the the discussion, but neither does the "fuck the police" circlejerk that piles on everyone who isn't a part of it, regardless of what the facts end up being.

Promoting intellectual honesty and factual agnosticism is considered to have little to no value anymore? That...is just sad.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
Promoting intellectual honesty and factual agnosticism is considered to have little to no value anymore? That...is just sad.

The people who want to get angry and emotional are going to get angry and emotional regardless. Saying that we don't have all the facts isn't actually adding any information to the discussion, and is just calling out the people who are getting emotional, and they're going to respond to you emotionally. So nothing constructive ends up happening.

The crappy part is that people have to let the 2 minutes of hate run its course or else get ripped to shreds.
 

Owensboro

Member
Ahahahaha. The cop is hilarious in the tape.

"Thank you for bringing up the race card, I never hear that!"
"Keep yelling, it really helps.

--"My dad would like to talk to you"
"Nope!"

"I'd already be gone, just so you know. I already got your license. I'd already be gone. Uuuuuuuuh."

edit: Holy crap. It's frightening how quickly she turns on a dime from hysterically screaming to make a scene, to calm to try and make some point, back to screaming, and then to a "peace, love, power" speech. I guess she's a good actress?
 
The people who want to get angry and emotional are going to get angry and emotional regardless. Saying that we don't have all the facts isn't actually adding any information to the discussion, and is just calling out the people who are getting emotional, and they're going to respond to you emotionally. So nothing constructive ends up happening.

The crappy part is that people have to let the 2 minutes of hate run its course or else get ripped to shreds.

I see pointing out the follies of others as being extremely valuable and educational. Socrates thought so too. It is a shame we have a modern day hemlock effect going on here. Where has the value in trying to temper emotions gone? Or should we, intellectual agnostics, just sit down and let people spout off the same nonsense that has little rhetorical value? If so, I find that sad and disheartening philosophically.

But that is all I will say on the matter.
 
The only thing I see in regards to this story is the fact the regardless of the situation... people are showing less and less respect to police officers. It seems that people are willing to push verbal disrespect and not listening to authority to the limits.

If this continues to happen... then it does not suprise me that more and more people are going to be shot, hurt or killed. One thing most of the recent stories show is that people in one form or another are resisting arrest or an attempt at arrest or even general authority.

It doesnt make it right.. but still.
 

Opiate

Member
There were also a bunch of 'fuck the police' posts, but so what? People were having an emotional response to a bad story. You have to ask how important it is to you that everyone remain calm and logical. For me, it doesn't matter. In the end, the truth came out and we moved on.

It's quite important. I don't like people being ridiculed, lambasted, or mocked for what ultimately proves to be no good reason. Further, I don't like looking like a complete ass in the process. I also don't like horribly losing arguments to racists just because I couldn't keep my cool.

As an example, let's say I had an "emotional response" to this story, and was discussing it with someone who is implicitly racist/authoritarian. He keeps insisting that we wait for all the facts*, but I won't abide that answer and try to push him around with the emotional force of my argument.

Then the truth comes out and it becomes clear that he was right; we didn't have all the facts of the case and the woman was lying. Now he wins the argument and I look like a jerk, which could have been completely avoided if I'd remained calm and not relied on emotional arguments. If I had instead simply said, "you're right, you can never know all the facts in any specific case, but the large scale aggregate data makes it quite clear that institutional racism exists," I could have avoided all of those problems. First, I wouldn't have been wrong when the truth came out; I had already established that you cannot know in any specific instance. Second, I don't look like a jerk who bullied someone who was ultimately right. Third, I don't lose the argument because my argument never relied on this specific woman's case in the first place; I rely on large scale data.

*Just to be clear, I am not saying that anyone who wants to "wait for all the facts" must be a racist. I'm saying that someone with a moderate authoritarian lean would default to this position, but not all people who take this position are authoritarian. It's a syllogism.
 

Schattenjäger

Gabriel Knight
It's quite important. I don't like people being ridiculed, lambasted, or mocked for what ultimately proves to be no good reason. Further, I don't like looking like a complete ass in the process. I also don't like horribly losing arguments to racists just because I couldn't keep my cool.

As an example, let's say I had an "emotional response" to this story, and was discussing it with someone who is implicitly racist/authoritarian. He keeps insisting that we wait for all the facts*, but I won't abide that answer and try to push him around with the emotional force of my argument.

Then the truth comes out and it becomes clear that he was right; we didn't have all the facts of the case and the woman was lying. Now he wins the argument and I look like a jerk, which could have been completely avoided if I'd remained calm and not relied on emotional arguments. If I had instead simply said, "you're right, you can never know all the facts in any specific case, but the large scale aggregate data makes it quite clear that institutional racism exists," I could have avoided all of those problems. First, I wouldn't have been wrong when the truth came out; I had already established that you cannot know in any specific instance. Second, I don't look like a jerk who bullied someone who was ultimately right. Third, I don't lose the argument because my argument never relied on this specific woman's case in the first place; I rely on large scale data.

*Just to be clear, I am not saying that anyone who wants to "wait for all the facts" must be a racist. I'm saying that someone with a moderate authoritarian lean would default to this position, but not all people who take this position are authoritarian. It's a syllogism.
Voice of reason !
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
The people who want to get angry and emotional are going to get angry and emotional regardless. Saying that we don't have all the facts isn't actually adding any information to the discussion, and is just calling out the people who are getting emotional, and they're going to respond to you emotionally. So nothing constructive ends up happening.

The crappy part is that people have to let the 2 minutes of hate run its course or else get ripped to shreds.

Yeah, that sounds like a problem for the mods to deal with, rather than a problem for the rational people to deal with. The latter have been conditioned to keep their mouths shut.
 

Opiate

Member
Do you ever have that feeling that you completely lost an argument even though your position was ultimately correct? For instance, have you lost an argument against a homophobe, where you can't understand how he's winning the argument even though his position is unfair?

Avoiding emotional arguments is the first step in avoiding that problem. Tethering your argument to a specific case or instance -- and backing that argument with emotional force -- sets you up to look like a fool if the facts of the specific case turn out differently than you expected.
 

Calamari41

41 > 38
Do you ever have that feeling that you completely lost an argument even though your position was correct? For instance, have you lost an argument against a homophobe, where you can't understand how he's winning the argument even though his position is unfair?

Avoiding emotional arguments is the first step in avoiding that problem. Tethering your argument to a specific case or instance -- and backing that argument with emotional force -- sets you up to look like a fool if the facts of the case turn out differently than you expect.

This always happens when, as you said, you start to get emotional and find yourself arguing beyond your original point. When you let emotions take over, you are less able to realize when you are slowly starting to defend strawmen that your opponent is setting up.
 

Pete Rock

Member
The other problem with this story was the original reporting and thread titles, it was so incredibly loaded and absolutely designed to be inflammatory: "famous black woman mistaken as prostitute for kissing white boyfriend" what the fuck ever
 
Ahahahaha. The cop is hilarious in the tape.

"Thank you for bringing up the race card, I never hear that!"
"Keep yelling, it really helps.

--"My dad would like to talk to you"
"Nope!"

"I'd already be gone, just so you know. I already got your license. I'd already be gone. Uuuuuuuuh."

edit: Holy crap. It's frightening how quickly she turns on a dime from hysterically screaming to make a scene, to calm to try and make some point, back to screaming, and then to a "peace, love, power" speech. I guess she's a good actress?

"I need your ID so I can identify you."
"OH YEAH?! Well, I want to identify you to my publicist! What's your first name?"
". . . now do you see why you're in handcuffs?"

This is one reason why all police need to be wearing cameras. There'd be less lunatics trying to provoke them for some easy e-fame.
 

Dash27

Member
So apparently they are still fighting this?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/15/showbiz/django-unchained-actress-detained/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Watts and Lucas said they initially decided to forget about the incident, but then they decided they needed to speak up.

"We still forgive, love and bless them ... just not putting up with this for our own freedom and heart space," Lucas wrote.

The couple has contacted lawyers, the American Civil Liberties Union and the NAACP, he said. "Our publicist has us in contact with media about it, too, and we're supposed to hear back."

The Los Angeles Police Department confirmed it is conducting an internal investigation.
 

KFC-Double-Down.jpg


Not just for Republicans anymore!
 

TheJLC

Member
Who the fuck calls 911 to report a prostitute anyway? That's not a fucking emergency, wtf.
You report any crime in progress to 911, dispatch can then prioritize if it's an emergency or not. Only time you don't call 911 is when a non-emergency number exists and it's not a crime.

For example, here we have 311 and we use it to call in broken light signals, power outages, request city services, and file reports. If there is a crime in progress 311 will direct you to 911 dispatch automatically and an officer will be sent if there are units available.
 
I see pointing out the follies of others as being extremely valuable and educational. Socrates thought so too. It is a shame we have a modern day hemlock effect going on here. Where has the value in trying to temper emotions gone? Or should we, intellectual agnostics, just sit down and let people spout off the same nonsense that has little rhetorical value? If so, I find that sad and disheartening philosophically.

But that is all I will say on the matter.

This is a logically sound position to take, but don't think that your insistence on merely pointing out the inaccuracies of others and a stubborn refusal to actually pick a side somehow makes you a hero fighting against a tide of ignorance. You may claim that your attempt to place yourself "above" the debate at hand is evidence of your intellectual superiority worthy of comparing yourself to Socrates, but remember that most pieces of evidence can support more than one conclusion. Isn't it also possible that your ability to stay above the debate is merely due to an inability to empathize with other human beings?

In any case, sitting back and sniping others' opinions while never putting forward any of your own besides "let's be calm and wait for evidence" is fairly cowardly. Take a position, make an argument from the facts that can actually be analyzed and possibly refuted. Yes, it might turn out that in the end you were wrong! (as has happened to many in this thread) But at least you attempted to take a risk and put something forward.
 
Who the fuck calls 911 to report a prostitute anyway? That's not a fucking emergency, wtf.
In my area I call 911 when a car is parked in front of a fire hydrant in my neighborhood. I've called the police's non-emergency number but they told me to call 911 because it's easier for a dispatcher to get in touch with a patrol officer that way.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
This is a logically sound position to take, but don't think that your insistence on merely pointing out the inaccuracies of others and a stubborn refusal to actually pick a side somehow makes you a hero fighting against a tide of ignorance. You may claim that your attempt to place yourself "above" the debate at hand is evidence of your intellectual superiority worthy of comparing yourself to Socrates, but remember that most pieces of evidence can support more than one conclusion. Isn't it also possible that your ability to stay above the debate is merely due to an inability to empathize with other human beings?

In any case, sitting back and sniping others' opinions while never putting forward any of your own besides "let's be calm and wait for evidence" is fairly cowardly. Take a position, make an argument from the facts that can actually be analyzed and possibly refuted. Yes, it might turn out that in the end you were wrong! (as has happened to many in this thread) But at least you attempted to take a risk and put something forward.

I think your post went off the rails by the end. It reads like "I'd rather be loud and opinionated than right!"
 
I think your post went off the rails by the end. It reads like "I'd rather be loud and opinionated than right!"

I think my main point is that "let's wait for more information" "extremists in both sides are wrong" and "I'm just playing devils advocate" are all safe, easy comments that don't make you intellectually superior to the people who are more emotionally attached to one side of the argument than you are.
 

Opiate

Member
I think my main point is that "let's wait for more information" "extremists in both sides are wrong" and "I'm just playing devils advocate" are all safe, easy comments that don't make you intellectually superior to the people who are more emotionally attached to one side of the argument than you are.

I don't think they're safe or easy responses at all. The more common human tendency is to be immediately provoked to emotional response by anecdotal stories. It requires constant vigilance and restraint to prevent yourself from falling prey to that instinctive reflex.

I definitely agree that people aren't inherently intellectually superior just because they happen to be right in this specific instance. I also agree that some people play this card not because of an honest passion for sound logical process but simply because they want to feel superior. As always, there can be wrong reasons for reaching the right conclusion.
 

Dash27

Member
This is a logically sound position to take, but don't think that your insistence on merely pointing out the inaccuracies of others and a stubborn refusal to actually pick a side somehow makes you a hero fighting against a tide of ignorance. You may claim that your attempt to place yourself "above" the debate at hand is evidence of your intellectual superiority worthy of comparing yourself to Socrates, but remember that most pieces of evidence can support more than one conclusion. Isn't it also possible that your ability to stay above the debate is merely due to an inability to empathize with other human beings?

In any case, sitting back and sniping others' opinions while never putting forward any of your own besides "let's be calm and wait for evidence" is fairly cowardly. Take a position, make an argument from the facts that can actually be analyzed and possibly refuted. Yes, it might turn out that in the end you were wrong! (as has happened to many in this thread) But at least you attempted to take a risk and put something forward.

It's been mentioned that going against the knee jerk emotional majority opinion will get you piled on and banned. So people go with extreme caution, knowing this is the case.

The vast majority of times, these stories are wildly sensational and stuff always comes up that impacts the original spin, if not outright refutes it. I forget what the original title of this but it was something to do with being mistaken for a prostitute, picture of the girl in cuffs crying, cop standing by her.

No evidence existed to affirm or deny it. It was all framed to invite outrage. However, if you've seen these before you know that sometimes yeah it is someone getting harassed and other times, it's not. This is nothing new, the problem is, if you dont side with the person cast as victim... you're guilty of the appropriate ism or bigotry.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
I think my main point is that "let's wait for more information" "extremists in both sides are wrong" and "I'm just playing devils advocate" are all safe, easy comments that don't make you intellectually superior to the people who are more emotionally attached to one side of the argument than you are.

You're saying something completely different now. His self-comparison to Socrates was pretty obnoxious, but you were doing the same thing by insinuating that the people who have flecks of spittle flying from their posts are morally superior.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom